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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2009 9:12:45 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
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WOFman,
quote:
As are the strange concepts and teachings of the Calvinists!
Well.....it looks like I am on the thread that talks about all the strange teachings of WOFinists. LOL
Dont you think it sort of strange that WOF teaches about the complete healing of body here and now when all bodies are obviously in a state of decay?
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2009 3:56:39 PM
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gradStudentNYC
Posts: 93
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John Piper:
quote:
I don’t know what you feel about the prosperty gospel; the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. But I’ll tell you what I feel about it; hatred.
It is not the gospel. It is being exported from this country to Africa and Asia. Selling a bill of goods to the poorest of the poor, “Believe this message, your pigs won’t die. Your wife won’t have miscarriages. You’ll have rings on your fingers and coats on your back.” That’s comin’ out of America!
The people that out to be giving our money and our time and our lives, instead selling them a bunch of **** called “gospel.” And here’s the reason that it is so horrible. When was the last time that any American, African, Asian ever said, “Jesus is all-satisfying because you drove a BMW?” Never!
They’ll say, “Did Jesus give you that?” Yeah, “Well I’ll take Jesus!” That’s idolatry, that’s not the gospel. That’s elevating gifts above giver.
I’ll tell you what makes Jesus look beautiful. It’s when you smash your car and your little girl goes flying through the windshield and lands, like I was with a little girl on 11th Ave two weeks ago; dead on the street for three hours before the police could let her go. And you say, through the deepest possible pain…
“God is enough, God is enough.”
“He is good. He will take care of us. He will satisfy us. He will get us through this. He is our treasure”
“Whom have I in heaven but you? And on Earth there is nothing that I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart and my little girl may fail, but you are the strength of my heart and my portion forever.”
THAT makes God look glorious, as GOD, not as giver of cars or safety or health.
Oh how I pray that Birmingham would be purged of the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel, indeed America would be purged and that the Christian church…would be marked by suffering for Christ.
God is most glorified in you when you are most satisfied in Him in the midst of loss, not prosperity.
_____________________________
Andrew,
Vocabulary Words | Christian Blog | GMAT Study Guide
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2009 4:08:11 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gradStudentNYC
John Piper:
quote:
I don’t know what you feel about the prosperty gospel; the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. But I’ll tell you what I feel about it; hatred.
It is not the gospel. It is being exported from this country to Africa and Asia. Selling a bill of goods to the poorest of the poor, “Believe this message, your pigs won’t die. Your wife won’t have miscarriages. You’ll have rings on your fingers and coats on your back.” That’s comin’ out of America!
The people that out to be giving our money and our time and our lives, instead selling them a bunch of **** called “gospel.” And here’s the reason that it is so horrible. When was the last time that any American, African, Asian ever said, “Jesus is all-satisfying because you drove a BMW?” Never!
They’ll say, “Did Jesus give you that?” Yeah, “Well I’ll take Jesus!” That’s idolatry, that’s not the gospel. That’s elevating gifts above giver.
I’ll tell you what makes Jesus look beautiful. It’s when you smash your car and your little girl goes flying through the windshield and lands, like I was with a little girl on 11th Ave two weeks ago; dead on the street for three hours before the police could let her go. And you say, through the deepest possible pain…
“God is enough, God is enough.”
“He is good. He will take care of us. He will satisfy us. He will get us through this. He is our treasure”
“Whom have I in heaven but you? And on Earth there is nothing that I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart and my little girl may fail, but you are the strength of my heart and my portion forever.”
THAT makes God look glorious, as GOD, not as giver of cars or safety or health.
Oh how I pray that Birmingham would be purged of the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel, indeed America would be purged and that the Christian church…would be marked by suffering for Christ.
God is most glorified in you when you are most satisfied in Him in the midst of loss, not prosperity.
Straight and to the point in that quote!
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2009 4:54:34 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5278
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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God bless John Piper.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2009 5:03:39 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 392
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
God bless John Piper.
I'm currently reading Piper's new book, "Fully Alive." Wonderful book so far.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2009 8:06:26 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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gradStudentNYC,
Thanks for that wonderful post!
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2009 12:16:00 AM
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NoClone
Posts: 16
Joined: 10/11/2006
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As the years pass since I left WOF doctrine, I definitely feel like it was the correct choice. I have to admit, through the first few years, I had some lingering thoughts of whether I might have been wrong in leaving. But I could go on and on about the countless unfulfilled prophecies and all of the different teachings that haven't done for people what they expected, or believed.
One that I've been thinking about lately is the so-called "end-time transfer of wealth" teaching. This was used regularly, at the church I went to, to get people hyped up for the offering. Of course, if you give more, you will receive more of this end-time transfer. Some could say, it is still coming. But when the pastors spoke, the implication was always that it was imminent. The people I still know, at a distance now, from that church are pretty much the same economically as they were then.
I've actually become more prosperous since leaving these teachings. I was very poor when I attended this church, and gave away as much money as I could thinking, my day was coming. Lol, well I guess you could say I'm reaping those seeds now. But, in reality, it all began to happen when I became ill and found myself looking for a job with insurance because I was not healed. I found out, yeah, health insurance might be a good thing to have. And I just kept working hard and began making more money. I was not getting up two hours before work reciting prosperity mantras or giving away more than I could afford.
I can only imagine what they're saying now about the economic crisis, "give more and you will survive." Or all the strange prophecies and visions everyone is having about what it all means.
Another thing I couldn't take anymore was not being able to have real conversations with my friends. We were always quoting scripture or positive confessions. If you talked about how you were actually feeling, you might be admonished for being negative or could be answered with a scripture quote. Sometimes I just wanted talk to someone. I think you can do that and talk about God's Word also. Looking back, it seems just quoting scripture was also a way of avoiding people you didn't really want to talk to. Oh well, rambling now. God bless you all.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2009 9:09:41 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5278
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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God bless you NoClone and thank you for sharing.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 9:12:30 AM
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mudpuddle
Posts: 270
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
WOFman,
quote:
As are the strange concepts and teachings of the Calvinists!
Well.....it looks like I am on the thread that talks about all the strange teachings of WOFinists. LOL
Dont you think it sort of strange that WOF teaches about the complete healing of body here and now when all bodies are obviously in a state of decay?
KJB
This is exactly what believers are not supposed to be doing.......judge the word by what we see. When we look at the circumstances to see if the Word works, we are walking by sight and not by faith. You can call it Word of Faith if you want to, but if you are walking by sight and not by faith, then you are displeasing God. To back it up, with scripture as many of you think WOF people dont do......Hebrews 11:6 "without faith it is impossible to please Him" , and 2Cor5:7..."we walk by faith and not by sight". You dont have to believe it, but you will live by it, for God will not be mocked. If it's too difficult, you can run for shelter in the comfort of your friends who speak and agree with you. Problem is........if thier speaking and agreeing is contrary to His word, (like walking by sight), then you yourself are transgressing His word.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 9:17:25 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: getthepoint
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
WOFman,
quote:
As are the strange concepts and teachings of the Calvinists!
Well.....it looks like I am on the thread that talks about all the strange teachings of WOFinists. LOL
Dont you think it sort of strange that WOF teaches about the complete healing of body here and now when all bodies are obviously in a state of decay?
KJB
This is exactly what believers are not supposed to be doing.......judge the word by what we see. When we look at the circumstances to see if the Word works, we are walking by sight and not by faith. You can call it Word of Faith if you want to, but if you are walking by sight and not by faith, then you are displeasing God. To back it up, with scripture as many of you think WOF people dont do......Hebrews 11:6 "without faith it is impossible to please Him" , and 2Cor5:7..."we walk by faith and not by sight". You dont have to believe it, but you will live by it, for God will not be mocked. If it's too difficult, you can run for shelter in the comfort of your friends who speak and agree with you. Problem is........if thier speaking and agreeing is contrary to His word, (like walking by sight), then you yourself are transgressing His word.
Typical comeback.
Not enough faith, huh?
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 9:26:03 AM
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mudpuddle
Posts: 270
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: WOFman
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
I see I have a lot of catching up to do on reading about this topic on this thread....LOL
From what I have read so far I think the strange concepts that WOF has is pretty easy to see.
KJB
As are the strange concepts and teachings of the Calvinists!
However, Calvinism is grounded in Scripture; WOF is not.
i thought this thread was about WOF, but since you brought it up, Calvinism denies Gods will to save.
Funny thing about this thread is that it has become more of a haven for WOF bashers to find comfort in thier own ranks.
What's even better is that when they offer examples of where WOF fails, they actually are showing where it succeeds.........if they would have ears to hear.
We are commanded to believe His word despite what we see. That is what WOF is all about.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 10:48:55 AM
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mudpuddle
Posts: 270
Joined: 9/27/2008
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If you apply the same logic that WOF bashers apply to healing and prosperity to salvation, then you would never know if it were Gods will to save you. You would never know how to recieve salvation. Somebody could take you to the scripture, like John 3:16, or Romans 10: 8,9,10, but you would never believe it, because there are so many people living in darkness. You would say that since I see so many so called christians who live and ungodly life, then salvation must not be real and therefore, those scriptures must not mean what you think they mean.
Now if you are happy to camp out at the entrance to the city without having the benefits of what's inside, so be it. But just because you havent entered in, you shouldn't speak poorly of those who do.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 11:33:40 AM
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mudpuddle
Posts: 270
Joined: 9/27/2008
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John Piper, quote:
THAT makes God look glorious, as GOD, not as giver of cars or safety or health.
What would you tell Abraham, whom God had increased with lands, and cattle and servants and etc........? What would you tell the Isrealites who survived in the wilderness without sickness or disease, and there was not a feeble one among them. What would you say to David who consistently refered to Jehovah as his provider, healer, and safety. How can you answer these people? How do you respond to the scripture which says.......let the sick say I am well. Should we cut it out of the bible? How will you respond to what Jesus said when he spoke to the woman with the issue of blood, " your faith has made you whole"? Will you tell Him he was wrong. And what about those in His hometown who would not believe in Him. Maybe there were none there who needed a healing. Maybe that's why Jesus could do no great works in that city........because they didnt need it, or perhaps it was as Jesus said.......they had unbelief........How do you reconcile these truths from scripture..............tell me............If your truth is in fact truth, then it will be substantiated and confirmed by more than just your rantings....it would be confirmed by scripture............so show me.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 11:38:24 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2511
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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getthepoint, the excesses of the so-called Word of Faith teachings leave the sick without a doctor, the poor without money and the wounded without a healer--because the entire focus is on one's personal ability to "believe" something.
It is much better to believe in the character of God and in His ability to rule our lives than to imagine that one can name and claim themselves out of every situation.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 11:38:28 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2/26/2006
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getthepoint,
Are Christians supposed to suffer?
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 11:40:18 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: getthepoint
John Piper, quote:
THAT makes God look glorious, as GOD, not as giver of cars or safety or health.
What would you tell Abraham, whom God had increased with lands, and cattle and servants and etc........? What would you tell the Isrealites who survived in the wilderness without sickness or disease, and there was not a feeble one among them. What would you say to David who consistently refered to Jehovah as his provider, healer, and safety. How can you answer these people? How do you respond to the scripture which says.......let the sick say I am well. Should we cut it out of the bible? How will you respond to what Jesus said when he spoke to the woman with the issue of blood, " your faith has made you whole"? Will you tell Him he was wrong. And what about those in His hometown who would not believe in Him. Maybe there were none there who needed a healing. Maybe that's why Jesus could do no great works in that city........because they didnt need it, or perhaps it was as Jesus said.......they had unbelief........How do you reconcile these truths from scripture..............tell me............If your truth is in fact truth, then it will be substantiated and confirmed by more than just your rantings....it would be confirmed by scripture............so show me.
Out of curiosity, would you tell me what you say to Christians who are starving to death?....to martyrs?....to Christians who die of cancer at early ages?
God answers all prayers of the faithful, and most times it is, "No." One cannot "claim" anything from God except salvation, peace, and love.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 11:42:49 AM
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dwtramm
Posts: 392
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: getthepoint
John Piper, quote:
THAT makes God look glorious, as GOD, not as giver of cars or safety or health.
What would you tell Abraham, whom God had increased with lands, and cattle and servants and etc........? What would you tell the Isrealites who survived in the wilderness without sickness or disease, and there was not a feeble one among them. What would you say to David who consistently refered to Jehovah as his provider, healer, and safety. How can you answer these people? How do you respond to the scripture which says.......let the sick say I am well. Should we cut it out of the bible? How will you respond to what Jesus said when he spoke to the woman with the issue of blood, " your faith has made you whole"? Will you tell Him he was wrong. And what about those in His hometown who would not believe in Him. Maybe there were none there who needed a healing. Maybe that's why Jesus could do no great works in that city........because they didnt need it, or perhaps it was as Jesus said.......they had unbelief........How do you reconcile these truths from scripture..............tell me............If your truth is in fact truth, then it will be substantiated and confirmed by more than just your rantings....it would be confirmed by scripture............so show me.
What would you tell Job, who himself declared the Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
What would you tell Paul, after facing some type of attack, after praying three times, God answering, "My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness."
What would you tell Paul, concerning his eye condition in Galatians 4. He saw God working through it through the Galatians response to him.
What would you tell Timothy, who had some type of stomach condition. Paul tells him to drink wine for his stomach's ailment, not to confess it to go away, nor to walk by faith and deny what he sees or experiences.
Let's please look at all of Scripture and not pull of verse out here or there and base some doctrine it. And yes I admit I did it here as well just to prove a point.
Also there is a Calvinists thread for those comments, take those there please so the focus can be on WOF here and Calvinism there. Thanks.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 12:08:05 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 2322
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: getthepoint
. If it's too difficult, you can run for shelter in the comfort of your friends who speak and agree with you. Problem is........if thier speaking and agreeing is contrary to His word, (like walking by sight), then you yourself are transgressing His word.
Funny that's all I've ever seen WOFers do.
_____________________________
Moodyvision - my YouTube channel
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 12:28:58 PM
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mudpuddle
Posts: 270
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
What would you tell Job, who himself declared the Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
even Job recanted these words before God.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 12:47:25 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 392
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: getthepoint
quote:
What would you tell Job, who himself declared the Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.
even Job recanted these words before God.
Nope. He didn't. Chapter and verse please where he did.
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