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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 4:50:24 PM
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lw9
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More from Benjamin Dunn, who led the 'worship' at Bethel School of the Supernatural in that first Not-A-Rave video:
LINK
LINK
LINK
For a real eye-opener, try reading the comments left by his supporters underneath the videos.
But noooo. These are not raves, people. Just move along.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 4:53:09 PM
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lw9
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quote:
MrFribbles: In what ways did the crowd appear drunk or high? Please be specific.
Wow.
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 5:08:52 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
MrFribbles: In what ways did the crowd appear drunk or high? Please be specific.
Wow.
That does not seem to be a proper answer to a proper question so I will try;
In the video under discussion "Live worship" in post 3726, what so offends your senses as to claim they are high or drunk????
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 5:54:52 PM
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lw9
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quote:
rcjames: That does not seem to be a proper answer to a proper question so I will try;
In the video under discussion "Live worship" in post 3726, what so offends your senses as to claim they are high or drunk????
If you and MrFribbles can't see what's wrong after viewing the entire video for yourself, then my pointing it out isn't going to do a bit of good. Worship service.... rave.... house party.... techno club... whatever.
The bigger picture is this: If you think it's okay for kids to be led in worship by a Latter Rain / NAR following church and Benjamin Dunn, who promotes and teaches the 'Toking the Ghost' blasphemy, then I really can't help you with that, either.
And you never did answer my question to you:
quote:
If you know nothing of the school, the leadership, and the doctrine, then how do you know they are even praising the one true God of the Holy Bible? I'm wondering how you came to your assumption without first testing the spirits as the Bible calls you to do.
What exactly did you test, rcjames, before you came to your assumption? We know by your own confession that it wasn't doctrine, so it would appear that large groups of exuberant, stupified, entranced, crowd-surfing kids is your test. No matter that these kids were being led by 'Holy Ghost Toking and Getting high on the Most High' nut job Benjamin Dunn, eh? They're all just so... joyous.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/17/2009 6:06:18 PM >
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 5:58:27 PM
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earthless
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I guess some here would call the crowds at a Dave Matthews Band concert, as being in joyful worship.
Yes.. but worship of who and what exactly?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 8:03:09 PM
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prophet
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WOW! Looked EXACTLY like those rock/heavy metal concerts i used to venture to all those yaers ago- frenzy,suggestive gyrations, drunkedness, lusvicousness, - ALL fruits of the Spirit- NOT!
quote:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections F12 and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 8:32:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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I have to admit, the "tokin' the baby Jesus" was going too far. But the overall style of worship? I see no problem with it.
quote:
The bigger picture is this: If you think it's okay for kids to be led in worship by a Latter Rain / NAR following church and Benjamin Dunn, who promotes and teaches the 'Toking the Ghost' blasphemy, then I really can't help you with that, either.
I wasn't discussing the teachings behind this service - just the service itself. Would you be OK with a service like that if it was put on by a doctrinally sound group?
quote:
I guess some here would call the crowds at a Dave Matthews Band concert, as being in joyful worship.
Sometimes, yes - and in those cases, not good worship. But I would wager that most folks who go to a secular concert do it to have fun, not to worship.
Do you think the crowds at a Third Day concert can't worship because of the setting and style?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 8:59:59 PM
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solarflare
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I do not think that video portrays worship. Not of a Holy God anyway. Just really makes the cross seem like a downer. I mean we wouldn't wanna break up the party or anything.........pass the Holy Spirit
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 10:06:38 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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What was the fruit of the event? Where lives changed for the better?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 10:12:37 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
What was the fruit of the event? Where lives changed for the better?
I don't know, I wasn't there. I can say that I, personally, don't have my life changed for the better from singing Shine Jesus Shine through all the verses in a typical Sunday morning service, more often than not.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 10:30:25 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
I don't know, I wasn't there. I can say that I, personally, don't have my life changed for the better from singing Shine Jesus Shine through all the verses in a typical Sunday morning service, more often than not.
Which begs a larger, off-topic, question; why even bother showing up on Sunday morning
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 11:20:19 PM
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lw9
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quote:
MrFribbles: I wasn't discussing the teachings behind this service - just the service itself. Would you be OK with a service like that if it was put on by a doctrinally sound group?
You mean a 'worship service' that looked, sounded, and behaved exactly like the secular world in every way, shape, and form. Pass.
12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
A doctrinally sound church will understand modest dress, modest behavior, self-control, discipline, not conforming themselves to the world, and orderly worship. The proof is in the pudding... or in some churches' cases, the proof is in the house party and the rave.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/17/2009 11:38:13 PM >
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 11:37:17 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
You mean a 'worship service' that looked, sounded, and behaved exactly like the secular world in every way, shape, and form.
I ask again - can a Third Day concert be worship? Or the Cornerstone event? Or Purple Door?
quote:
A doctrinally sound church will understand modest dress, modest behavior, self-control, and orderly worship.
I didn't see any immodest dress; what constitutes "modest behavior" is subjective; aside from that last video I didn't see any more lack of self-control than I do when fellowshipping with my Pentecostal brethren; and what, exactly, makes up orderly worship?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 11:51:31 PM
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lw9
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quote:
MrFribbles: I didn't see any immodest dress;
Of course you didn't.
quote:
what constitutes "modest behavior" is subjective;
Of course it is, which is exactly why all Biblical mandates of not conforming to the world should be tossed out.
quote:
aside from that last video I didn't see any more lack of self-control than I do when fellowshipping with my Pentecostal brethren;
Yes, because your church is the gold standard to which all things should be measured.
quote:
and what, exactly, makes up orderly worship?
If you have to ask...
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 11:51:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
How about the one with the shot glasses and a little sign in one reading "Godka" instead of Vodka
While a little off-kilter, I don't see how that particular practice is any worse than those who claim to get drunk in the Spirit.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2009 11:54:40 PM
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MrFribbles
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lw9,
Your replies are lacking any substance. I ask legitimate questions, and you respond, "Well, you should just know." If you really want a discussion here, instead of people nodding in agreement, then please actually present some answers.
So to start, I'll ask again - what, exactly, constitutes orderly worship?
quote:
Yes, because your church is apparently the gold standard of self-control to which all things should be measured.
Actually, if my personal home church was the gold standard of self control, then pretty much any church out there that so much as clapped their hands when someone was singing would be considered wild. I don't expect everyone to abide by that standard, though.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 12:07:36 AM
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rawr.ben
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If I may jump in . . .
I think it is okay for churches to just have fun. I don't see conga lines as being "worldly." While it may not be your atypical "worship" I think that there can be great fellowship and joy in it.
I mean, I've been to concerts where people are raising their hands . . but to secular artists. That doesn't mean that we are being worldly if we raise our hands in worship.
Anyway, with that said, I do think that these people have crossed many lines. I can't claim to know their hearts, but I know the kind of church it is, and my educated guess is that they are far misguided (as revealed by the one who is guiding them: a charlatan).
I think that was a pretty middle of the road answer . . especially for me.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 12:17:22 AM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 713
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From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
How about the one with the shot glasses and a little sign in one reading "Godka" instead of Vodka
While a little off-kilter, I don't see how that particular practice is any worse than those who claim to get drunk in the Spirit.
MrFribbles, do you believe in any absolutes in the Bible whatsoever?
I put in bold the word "claim" from your post. So, where does the bible say anyone gets "drunk" in the Spirit? The answer is nowhere. Zero, zip, zilch.
So then, you see them referring to God as Godka "no worse than" as in it's okay.
I believe there should be a holy reverence for God and what's seen in the video is not.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 12:28:50 AM
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lw9
Posts: 878
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MrFribbles:
You have created a shifting foundation where nothing, it seems, can be called wrong. It's like if you don't see it, then it doesn't exist. If you don't define it, then it's subjective. If your church does it, then it must not be so bad. Who can argue with that.
The Bible is clear about not conforming to the world, yet you defend worship services that look, sound, and behave exactly like the world. That just does not work. If you won't acknowledge the simple basic facts of what the world looks and acts like, then this discussion is unfortunately pointless because we are just not on common ground here. No one can explain something you don't want to see.
Your response regarding 'Godka' is the just one example. If you can't see why that goes well beyond 'a little off-kilter' and is flat-out wrong and abhorrent, then no one can explain it to you.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 11:05:14 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
I didn't see any immodest dress; what constitutes "modest behavior" is subjective;
Really? I guess that would be so if you are partaking of the immodest dress and behavior.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 11:08:34 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
I put in bold the word "claim" from your post. So, where does the bible say anyone gets "drunk" in the Spirit? The answer is nowhere. Zero, zip, zilch.
I've said that over and over in these threads. I have pointed out that it was the mockers in Jerusalem that said the 40 were drunk.....that seems to be the 'excuse' people use to compare being 'in the Spirit'...which is an expression actually found in the Bible...to being drunk with alcohol.
And as far as 'toking the Holy Ghost' goes, these people are definately into some kind of spirit, but it is NOT Holy. God is Holy.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 2:11:19 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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solarflare,
quote:
Really? I guess that would be so if you are partaking of the immodest dress and behavior.
I'm glad we've started offering meaningful contributions instead of baseless accusations. ...Oh wait, nope, I was wrong.
Do you know me? Do you know my life? How can you make such an accusation?
GodsMusic,
quote:
MrFribbles, do you believe in any absolutes in the Bible whatsoever?
I'm not sure where you get that from. Please provide specific quotes pointing to me denying any biblical absolutes whatsoever.
lw9,
quote:
You have created a shifting foundation where nothing, it seems, can be called wrong.
Where have I stated that there is nothing that can be called wrong?
quote:
If your church does it, then it must not be so bad.
Would you please read what I write instead of making assumptions? The church I attend is extremely conservative in its manner of worship.
quote:
The Bible is clear about not conforming to the world, yet you defend worship services that look, sound, and behave exactly like the world. That just does not work.
The world has BBQ picnics. Should churches not have BBQ picnics?
In my opinion, conforming to the world has little to do with the manner in which the worship is conducted, but rather the focus of the worship.
I ask again - for the third time - can worship happen at Purple Door? http://www.purpledoor.com/index.html
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 2:19:09 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
I'm glad we've started offering meaningful contributions instead of baseless accusations. ...Oh wait, nope, I was wrong.
Do you know me? Do you know my life? How can you make such an accusation?
OK, well, I thought we were speaking in general terms. I did not mean that to you personally, Mr. Fribbles and I did not take what you wrote as anything other than general. The 'you' was not intended personally. I do not wish to accuse or argue with you.
I am not accusing you of anything. So, can we address what I actually wrote in response to your quote:
I didn't see any immodest dress; what constitutes "modest behavior" is subjective;
I really didn't think it was going to be so difficult......
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 5/18/2009 2:43:24 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
The 'you' was not intended personally. I do not wish to accuse or argue with you.
Then perhaps I misunderstood. I apologize.
quote:
So, can we address what I actually wrote in response to your
quote:
Really? I guess that would be so if you are partaking of the immodest dress and behavior.
As one who does not partake in immodest dress or behavior, I can truthfully say that, with the exception of the third LINK in Post #3751, I saw no immodest dress or behavior in any of the videos posted so far.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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