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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 5:11:38 PM
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map4
Posts: 80
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4ChristisLove
Oh, in my bible.  No, for whatever reason I hadn't heard of the term WOF until I came to this board a couple months ago. I've been researching alot of things and have heard some statements about WOF on other threads. For all I knew it was just speaking things into existance. 
Not all WoF are as bad as people here portray them to be.
The so-called leaders aren't the leaders of each individual church.
I'm not defending or going to defend those leaders because, honestly, I don't have time to listen to or watch every little thing they do.
Most of us are just normal people who believe in the same Jesus (contrary to what some would say) as the rest of you. We are doing all we know to do just like everyone else. You may not agree with everything we do but that's ok. I am not taught or follow a false doctrine and I am not deceived. I read and study my Bible like everyone else and I hear the Holy Spirit. He corrects me when and if there is something I need to know or do differently. I trust His voice more than the voice of man.
And for the record...we don't believe we speak things into existence...at least most don't believe that. Some of the fringes do. We believe in speaking God's word which is a totally different thing. Most people speak God's word.
Also, we don't believe that a Christian will/should be a millionare or never be sick or suffer. Quite the contrary. Jesus said we would have test, trials and tribulations. I have personally heard many Wof teachers (not the big names that are out there) and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THEM ever said that we should be "wealthy" or never be sick or suffer.
And, NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THEM ever said the blood atonement of Jesus wasn't enough. They all teach on the blood and what it did for us and what it means to us. We fully believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. All was needed. And we thank God for what He did for us through His Son, Jesus Christ and for the Holy Spirit sent to us to comfort, teach, guide, and everything else He does for us.
The ones that have visited my church have also never asked for money. Nor have they said you have to give to their ministry to be blessed. Yes, we are taught that God will bless us as we give...but that is not the motive for our giving. We give out of love and in worship to Him. We are cheerful givers. Even if we never received a blessing, most I know would still give. It's not about the money like some would have you believe. Most of us do not "love money". Sure, money is nice. But the main thing is to use it to help others and bless them. And to help spead His word. It does take money to do that and to keep a church building running. Pay bills, etc. And support missionaries.
So see, most of us are out there doing what many of you do. We just get a bad rap because of what some have done and how they have portrayed us.
And my pastor has, from the pulpit, cautioned and warned us when he hears "the leaders" doing or saying something that he believes is not right. The same holds true for any denomination. No one has everything right. We walk in the light of what we know. Really, it is up to each of us to grow in the knowledge of Him and not leave it to man to do for us.
Spend time in His word, study it, spend time in His presence, rest in Him, and wait on Him. That's where all the answers are. In Him.
I just want to say that I will not defend or debate anyone on anything I have said. I have read the whole thread and know what is said. Everything that can be said has been said. No need to rehash it all. If you notice I do not post much. And I will only post as I feel led to do. I'm sorry if you think that is a cop out. But it is the way it is. We will just have to agree to disagree on some things.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 5:50:40 PM
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4ChristisLove
Posts: 145
Joined: 4/6/2008
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Thank you for sharing because really I know little about the WOF. I know one of the T.V. pastors (my husband really likes) and has been bashed I'm sure of being WOF. Everything I ever heard him say made sense to me or didn't seem "off". BUT I also heard him say something that didn't line up with scripture on one of the video's posted. So, it would really take tons of research on my part on him because obviously I've seen a few of his preachings here and there.
A question that did come to mind because I was reading about WOF online just now. Is believing you can be healed from a sickness WOF? I would have always thought by faith & through Jesus you can be healed. These are things that I have never thought of before or categorized it as word of faith.
edited for spelling correction
< Message edited by 4ChristisLove -- 6/17/2008 5:56:51 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 6:29:14 PM
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map4
Posts: 80
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4ChristisLove
Thank you for sharing because really I know little about the WOF. I know one of the T.V. pastors (my husband really likes) and has been bashed I'm sure of being WOF. Everything I ever heard him say made sense to me or didn't seem "off". BUT I also heard him say something that didn't line up with scripture on one of the video's posted. So, it would really take tons of research on my part on him because obviously I've seen a few of his preachings here and there.
A question that did come to mind because I was reading about WOF online just now. Is believing you can be healed from a sickness WOF? I would have always thought by faith & through Jesus you can be healed. These are things that I have never thought of before or categorized it as word of faith.
edited for spelling correction
Yes, WoF does believe in healing. Some say that we "blame" the person if they are not healed for lack of faith. And, sadly, some do this, but not the majority of the people I know who are WoF. I do believe faith has a role but their are many factors involved. I cannot say why some are not healed. God knows and will do what needs to be done in His timing and in His way. I do not have all of the answers, but, neither does anyone else. I believe their are some things we are not meant to know and therefore we have to rely on Him in faith. We don't tell our children reasons for everything we do and neither does our Heavenly Father. When we need to know, He will tell us.
Just from reading the many threads on here, I find a lot of people actually have beliefs similar to WoF as far as healing and "prosperity". I don't think they even realize it  . One thread on "rich" and poor people really made me chuckle. The "rich" were being called out by someone, so to speak, and they didn't like it. They defended being wealthy. Some of those same ones have been on this thread denouncing our belief in prosperity. It was really quite humorous.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 7:58:49 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 530
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
We believe in speaking God's word
And what exactly does this mean to you?
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 8:13:47 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 657
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Say map4 your kidding right?  I find it very easy to take a passage or a verse from one place and get it to fit into something else.
As one person wrote you can take any two different passages of scripture and make it relate to the same idea. "Like Judas hung himself, go and do like wise". Which 99.9% of those who follow this seed or blessing or double anointing fall into this problem of that a verse here and a verse there all equals a false thought pattern.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 8:25:33 PM
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map4
Posts: 80
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
We believe in speaking God's word
And what exactly does this mean to you?
Please realize that I am sometimes not good at getting my thoughts across and I don't want any misunderstanding.
I can only speak for myself, what this means to me.
I do believe that God has promised us certain things in His Word and that all the answers we need can be found in His Word.
If I believe God has promised me something or if the Holy Spirit has showed me an answer in the Word, then, I believe I can speak what He has shown me with faith and confidence that it will come to pass. It is not me doing anything other than having faith in what He showed me. I am not speaking things into existence. Merely relying on and trusting Him to make the answer manifest, however that may be.
And when I say I speak the Word He has shown me, I mean that, when doubt tries to come...and it always does...I speak His word and focus on the answer instead of the problems. I do not deny that the problem is there. I just believe God if He has said He will povide an answer or a way out or whatever it may be. I do believe there is power in those words, because they are His and He has shown me the answer so I speak His word about the situation. We are told to meditate on His word day and night. Speaking it, or rehearsing it, is another way, for me, to meditate and build up my faith when it is weak.
If I just speak His word without faith or without truly believing, then I am just a bunch of hot air. I have to know that He spoke to me about the answer.
Sorry I can't say more...I have to go to my son's basketball game. If I am able I may add more later.
I hope you understand what I mean. Thanks!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 8:38:41 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 530
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
We believe in speaking God's word
And what exactly does this mean to you?
Please realize that I am sometimes not good at getting my thoughts across and I don't want any misunderstanding.
I can only speak for myself, what this means to me.
I do believe that God has promised us certain things in His Word and that all the answers we need can be found in His Word.
If I believe God has promised me something or if the Holy Spirit has showed me an answer in the Word, then, I believe I can speak what He has shown me with faith and confidence that it will come to pass. It is not me doing anything other than having faith in what He showed me. I am not speaking things into existence. Merely relying on and trusting Him to make the answer manifest, however that may be.
And when I say I speak the Word He has shown me, I mean that, when doubt tries to come...and it always does...I speak His word and focus on the answer instead of the problems. I do not deny that the problem is there. I just believe God if He has said He will povide an answer or a way out or whatever it may be. I do believe there is power in those words, because they are His and He has shown me the answer so I speak His word about the situation. We are told to meditate on His word day and night. Speaking it, or rehearsing it, is another way, for me, to meditate and build up my faith when it is weak.
If I just speak His word without faith or without truly believing, then I am just a bunch of hot air. I have to know that He spoke to me about the answer.
Sorry I can't say more...I have to go to my son's basketball game. If I am able I may add more later.
I hope you understand what I mean. Thanks!
Thanks for your answer.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2008 8:17:29 PM
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4ChristisLove
Posts: 145
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
quote:
ORIGINAL: 4ChristisLove
Thank you for sharing because really I know little about the WOF. I know one of the T.V. pastors (my husband really likes) and has been bashed I'm sure of being WOF. Everything I ever heard him say made sense to me or didn't seem "off". BUT I also heard him say something that didn't line up with scripture on one of the video's posted. So, it would really take tons of research on my part on him because obviously I've seen a few of his preachings here and there.
A question that did come to mind because I was reading about WOF online just now. Is believing you can be healed from a sickness WOF? I would have always thought by faith & through Jesus you can be healed. These are things that I have never thought of before or categorized it as word of faith.
edited for spelling correction
Yes, WoF does believe in healing. Some say that we "blame" the person if they are not healed for lack of faith. And, sadly, some do this, but not the majority of the people I know who are WoF. I do believe faith has a role but their are many factors involved. I cannot say why some are not healed. God knows and will do what needs to be done in His timing and in His way. I do not have all of the answers, but, neither does anyone else. I believe their are some things we are not meant to know and therefore we have to rely on Him in faith. We don't tell our children reasons for everything we do and neither does our Heavenly Father. When we need to know, He will tell us.
Just from reading the many threads on here, I find a lot of people actually have beliefs similar to WoF as far as healing and "prosperity". I don't think they even realize it . One thread on "rich" and poor people really made me chuckle. The "rich" were being called out by someone, so to speak, and they didn't like it. They defended being wealthy. Some of those same ones have been on this thread denouncing our belief in prosperity. It was really quite humorous.
I appreciate you sharing with me!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 9:46:32 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 760
Joined: 1/23/2006
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those of you who think "prosperity" means money, wealth, cars, expensive clothes, etc.. are wrong and it is blasphemy.
You might have all the riches in the world and you may lose your soul. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul.
Jesus said you cannot serve me and mammon.
Please, give a man God's peace and he wont have to go for years and years of psycho-therapy spending thousands of dollars on humanistic 'self esteem' classes - meanwhile, popping pills that are supposed to calm him, yet one side affect is it can possibly cause suicide.
God does not have to do a thing for me, yet I will serve Him. God made me for HIS pleasure, not the other way around,, However, my Heavenly Father loves me and promised to care for my needs. God has blessed me with a few wants too..
But that material junk will trip you up if thats all you think your Heavenly Father is... your personal Santa Claus. Thats totall blasphemy against our Holy Wonderful marvelous Father and Jesus Christ - King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
does anything remember Jesus hung on a cross, totally humiliated and beatean and bruised for our sins? Does anyone remember the pain and torture Jesus went thru - being scourged, and beaten for our sins and sicknesses. Does anyone remember the wrath of the Father totally crushing Jesus for our sins, the total wrath of God crushed him. bruised him.
but no, people nowadays want a Santa Claus for a savior. Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the thought of our glorious spotless jesus hanging on that cross ought to bring you on your knees pleading for God's mercy, which is WHAT WE ALL DESERVE -- not cars, money, wealth and this WOF junk.
but no, you want to go around and cluck like a chicken, roll around the aisles, getting Benny Hinn to slap you with his coat and make you fall down like dominos, and you make fun of the precious Holy Spirit who you are just there to get your ha ha ha jollies from,,, HOW AWFUL OF YOU!!!! the Holy Spriit is HOLY!!! HOLY HOLY HOLY.. He does not make you do stupid tricks. The Holy Spirit is dignified, not like you see this crazy stuff going around and naming it the HOLY SPIRIT!!! Please people, find what the Word of God says about the attributes of the Holy spirit.. you wont find Him capable of all this crazy WOF stuff you see like with Benny Hinn and the florida outpouring whatever it is, and the Toronto Blessing. ALL HERESY AGAINST OUR HOLY AND GLORIOUS GOD!!
repent people!!! get down on your knees and repent and cry out to God for mercy.
< Message edited by IMA_CHRISTIAN -- 6/23/2008 9:54:43 AM >
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 1:44:07 PM
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map4
Posts: 80
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
those of you who think "prosperity" means money, wealth, cars, expensive clothes, etc.. are wrong and it is blasphemy.
I don't believe this is what prosperity means either. Neither am I taught that.
quote:
You might have all the riches in the world and you may lose your soul. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul.
All my riches are in Him. Since I don't have all the riches of "the world", but in Him, then I guess I am ok.
quote:
Jesus said you cannot serve me and mammon.
My church serves Jesus and is led by the Holy Spirit. Money is not our God
quote:
Please, give a man God's peace and he wont have to go for years and years of psycho-therapy spending thousands of dollars on humanistic 'self esteem' classes - meanwhile, popping pills that are supposed to calm him, yet one side affect is it can possibly cause suicide.
To my knowledge, no one at my church does this. However, I have many friends of different denominations...some of them do do these things. Sad.quote:
God does not have to do a thing for me, yet I will serve Him. God made me for HIS pleasure, not the other way around,, However, my Heavenly Father loves me and promised to care for my needs. God has blessed me with a few wants too..
Amen. Praise God. He is so good to us!
quote:
But that material junk will trip you up if thats all you think your Heavenly Father is... your personal Santa Claus. Thats totall blasphemy against our Holy Wonderful marvelous Father and Jesus Christ - King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Amen. I totally agree.
quote:
does anything remember Jesus hung on a cross, totally humiliated and beatean and bruised for our sins? Does anyone remember the pain and torture Jesus went thru - being scourged, and beaten for our sins and sicknesses. Does anyone remember the wrath of the Father totally crushing Jesus for our sins, the total wrath of God crushed him. bruised him.
Yes, I remember. My pastor also reminds us of this quite often.quote:
but no, people nowadays want a Santa Claus for a savior. Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the thought of our glorious spotless jesus hanging on that cross ought to bring you on your knees pleading for God's mercy, which is WHAT WE ALL DESERVE -- not cars, money, wealth and this WOF junk.
Agree. Cars, money and wealth are not what it is all about. So, not all WoF teach junk.
Please don't make the mistake of attributing to most what a few do. None that I know worship at the altar of money and things. If we are blessed with things, great. If not, oh well. We go on loving and serving our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
quote:
but no, you want to go around and cluck like a chicken, roll around the aisles, getting Benny Hinn to slap you with his coat and make you fall down like dominos, and you make fun of the precious Holy Spirit who you are just there to get your ha ha ha jollies from,,, HOW AWFUL OF YOU!!!! the Holy Spriit is HOLY!!! HOLY HOLY HOLY.. He does not make you do stupid tricks. The Holy Spirit is dignified, not like you see this crazy stuff going around and naming it the HOLY SPIRIT!!! Please people, find what the Word of God says about the attributes of the Holy spirit.. you wont find Him capable of all this crazy WOF stuff you see like with Benny Hinn and the florida outpouring whatever it is, and the Toronto Blessing. ALL HERESY AGAINST OUR HOLY AND GLORIOUS GOD!!
We do indeed serve a Holy God. I am led by and listen to the Holy Spirit and not man.
quote:
repent people!!! get down on your knees and repent and cry out to God for mercy.
I have repented of my sins. They were just not things you have attributed here to me because I happen to be Wof.
The following is not to any particular person. Just something that has been on my heart to share.
Some have said we don't believe in the blood atonement of Jesus.
Absolutely false. I believe the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is all that is needed. His blood atoned for my sins. And through His resurrection we have eternal life.
Some have said that we should never have sickness, problems, etc.
Absolutely false. Jesus said we would have test, trials and tribulations. We should expect them. I do not believe that we will never have sickness or problems in this life. Neither am I taught that (by my Rhema graduated pastor at that). We may differ on how we deal with those things. But not that we shall never experience them.
Some have said that we believe that all Christians should "be rich, wealthy" and usually attach "millions", expensive cars, nice houses, etc.
Absolutely false. Actually, it depends on what people define prospering to be. Hey, I live in a double wide mobile home. I am in debt. My husband and I have made some very foolish financial decisions. We are working on correcting them. But in spite of that, God is gracious and has supplied all of my needs. My hearts desire is to help people financially. Because I grew up so poor, I know what it is like. Been there done that. So, yes, I do pray for finances above and beyond what I need. But, not to fill my coffers...to help others and to give to help God's word be preached. It is not about me and what I can get. It is all about Him and what He wants me to do with my finances.
Let me add this so their is no misunderstanding. I do not think their is anything wrong with having nice things. What matters is where your heart is. As many have said, the "things" are not to have us and they are not what we should be seeking. We seek Him first, His kingdom. When He is first place in our lives then everything else will fall into place. I am not saying that we will never go through hard times. Because we will. We do.
It is how you handle yourself during those times that count. I choose to rely fully on Him knowing that He will work everything out for me. I can do nothing in and of myself. Without Him I am nothing. It is Him that lives in me and through me to do His good will. My house is built upon the solid rock, Jesus Christ. I have been through many storms, and my house has not been swept away. I am taught the Word of God at my church. And I read and study if for myself.
We, (my church) are not heretics. We believe in the same Jesus in the Bible that the rest of you do. The way we teach salvation is the same way I have read on here that most all of you do.
I do not believe that I "speak things into existence" the way you portray it to mean. I do, however, believe in speaking God's Word to and in my situation. I have seen many other non WoF on here say they do the same thing. When we have a problem, what do we do? We go to the Word and find the answer. Then, we pray, and speak the answer that we have found in His Word. We stand on the Word. If I miss it and am in error about something, I trust the Holy Spirit to show me. I hear His voice and He reveals through His Word the things I need to know. The Spirit will never disagree with the Word. The thing I don't think we should do is talk doubt and unbelief. If I have found an answer in God's word for my situation...that is what I should speak because He can't lie. If I go around speaking fear, doubt, etc. would I be nulligying my faith in Him and His Word? I am not saying that we deny their are problems. That is foolish. But, I put my focus on Him and His answers and not on my problem. That's all. I believe Him and have faith in Him that He will do what He says He will do. And I wait on Him. Waiting on Him perfects patience. Abraham had to wait a long time after being told he would be the father of many nations. But he believed God. That is all I do.
I do want to reiterate something...the key is believing His Word. I have to know in my spirit by the Holy Spirit that something is true. I can't just go around "confessing" things for the heck of it. I believe that is where a lot of people get into error. If the Holy Spirit doesn't make His Word alive to you, confessing a scripture won't work. If He has shown me the answer in scripture, then I believe I can pray it, confess it, however you want to describe it and it will happen.
< Message edited by map4 -- 6/23/2008 1:53:40 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 3:09:30 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5234
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
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Map - what you just said outright contradicts the teachings of the leaders of the group (Word of Faith) you claim you belong to:
Benny Hinn, Paula White, T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, Morris Cerrullo, Kenneth Copeland, John Avazini, Rod Parsley, Juanita Bynum, Joyce Meyer, Paul Crouch, etc etc...
Perhaps it would be be beneficial to know why you consider yourself 'Word of Faith'.
< Message edited by earthless -- 6/23/2008 3:25:42 PM >
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:19:19 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 760
Joined: 1/23/2006
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MAP - you most likely are NOT Word of Faith (WOF).
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:51:29 PM
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map4
Posts: 80
Status: offline
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Earthless,
I do believe in health and "prosperity".
I do believe health is available to Christians, just like salvation. But, no, I do not know why all are not healed anymore than I know why all are not saved. I will be bluntly honest about that. I am not God and do not know why some are not healed. I suppose their could be many reasons.
If Jesus is our example, He told some "your faith has made you whole". Do I believe that everyone has to have the right amount of faith to be healed? No. But I do believe that for some faith does play a part. But I am not the judge of that. I can't see their heart or what the Holy Spirit may be speaking to them. Could He be telling some..."have faith"?
He also told some "go and sin no more" when healing them. Do I believe that sin is the cause of all sickness? No. But again, I cannot see what God sees. Could one be continuing in a particular sin that He has spoke to them about? Could that hinder their healing? Maybe in some cases it could be the reason.
I don't have all the answers. I do find it hard to believe that a loving Father's will would be for His children to suffer in sickness and pain. But many do. I personally believe it is His will that we walk in health. But I'm not saying that we won't ever be sick. It's how we deal with the pain and sickness when it comes that I believe you and I differ greatly on. Again, I do not know why some are not healed. I believe it is between them and God, there are some things we just don't know.
I also want to say, to be completely honest, that of those you mentioned in your post...I have listened to some of them only a few times, others more. Most, not in a while. I hardly ever watch Christian TV anymore. I have read some of their books. What I got from the ones I listened to, was not that we would never be sick, but that we didn't have to stay that way. That is my paraphrase. When they said something like "a believer should never be sick", I didn't take it to mean other than what I said. We don't have to stay that way. Maybe I just heard differently or something.
I didn't glean from the ones I heard or read that they were trying to make the ones who were not healed feel guilty about it. At least, I didn't take it that way. Maybe it's because I wasn't taught to make them feel guilty about it. But to try to help them and teach them what we believe the truth of His Word is. Maybe that's why I didn't take it that way but I can see how some would if they didn't understand what was being said. If some are putting guilt on others, that is wrong. But, also there are times when the truth makes us feel "guilty". But the scripture says there is therefore now no condemnaiton for those who are in Christ Jesus.
As far as prosperity, it does not mean that we will be filthy rich. Prosperity means more than money. It is everything that He has provided for us, peace, joy, love, etc.. But finances is a part of it. Does it mean that everyone should be millionares? No, of course not. And I do not agree with the ones who tell people "you have to give to me; give this amount;" etc. I am not against giving, but I do agree that some are wrong in the way they do. My pastor warns us against them, and he is a Rhema grad. I do believe that we can be blessed as we give, but that is not limited to money nor is it why we should give. I do believe in sowing and reaping...whatever it is...good or bad.
I also want to say something about Kenneth Copeland regarding "any man could have died on the cross" or whatever his exact quote was. You know the one.
I think I actually saw the broadcast of that show or maybe I read it in a book. I don't remember. But I do remember seeing it somewhere besides here.
I honestly did not think he meant that anyone could have died for us. I took from it that, while any man could die on a cross, because obviously that was done during that time in history....but, that only Jesus could have died as our Savior because He was the only one able to do that for us. In other words, any man could die on a cross, but not any man could do what Jesus did in dying on the cross. I was not left with the impression that KC was saying that anyone could have died on a cross for us. Not at all. I was left with a deeper love for our Savior knowing that He was the only one who could do what He did for us on the cross. His shed blood atoned for our sins. Him who knew no sin became sin for us. That is amazing to me. I still don't think we truly grasp what He did for us on the cross, in His death burial and resurrection.
I have personally heard many Wof teachers who have come to our church. Not one of them discounted the blood of Jesus being enough to atone for our sins. So, earthless, I do whole heartedly disgree with you in saying that Wof doesn't think His blood atonement was enough. That is nowhere near what I have read, heard, or been taught.
I am sure that there are things that we teach or do that you would consider heretical. There is nothing I can do about that. I know that my pastor hears the Holy Spirit. I trust him. And I hear the Holy Spirit also. If there is something that doesn't sit right with me, my pastor has an open door to discuss it at any time. He is strong in his beliefs but he nor anyone else can force anyone to believe anything. And, my pastor doesn't agree with all that "Wof preachers" do and say. He speaks about it from his pulpit. He acknowledges that their are Rhema grads who have "gone flaky" so to speak. But we are Wof. He does teach the importance of our words, that we can speak to our problems, etc. But, as I stated in my first post...you have to believe what you are saying. He talked about this just yesterday. Just confessing scripture won't do anything if the Holy Spirit hasn't made the Word alive to you. You have to believe it and have faith in God that He will bring it to pass. We are just to speak His Word, stand on it and believe. One important thing that needs to be said, we do not "demand" God to do any old thing we want. That is another lie about the majority of Wof people that I know. Everything has to be asked in His will which He has given us. Now, to be fair, I'm sure we disagree on exactly what His will is on some things.
Are some out there teaching it the wrong way? Yes, they are. But not the ones that I know.
earthless, I do not want to debate particulars with you. You are a much better debator than I could claim to be. That is not what I am here to do. There are some things we will have to agree to disagree on. I can only tell about the things that I know and have been taught. I cannot speak for every Wof person there is. In the end, I will only have to give an account for myself. That is not to say that we sit back and don't speak up for what is wrong, or right for that matter. But I just don't think God has called me to debate these things...only share my experiences.
WoF has such a bad name on this forum. It does hurt to see myself and others that I know portrayed to be heretics, when I know that we are not.
We love Jesus. He is our Savior. That is what it is all about. Him. We are living our lives to show His love to others and to draw men to Him. Everything we do points the way to Him and our need of Him as our Savior. We do believe in the gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our "power source" so to speak. Because, again, we can do nothing apart from Him. It is the Holy Spirit working though us and in us. We believe in God's grace. Thank God for His grace. We believe in the Word. His Word has all the answers for us. That is why it is so important to know His Word for ourselves.
So, yes, I am WoF. Hope this helps you and others understand what I believe and where I am coming from. I believe we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Some may not think so, they can't get past the WoF label. For that, I'm sorry. Especially since you really don't know us like you think you do.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 5:22:54 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5234
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
Earthless,
I do believe in health and "prosperity".
I do believe health is available to Christians, just like salvation. But, no, I do not know why all are not healed anymore than I know why all are not saved. I will be bluntly honest about that. I am not God and do not know why some are not healed. I suppose their could be many reasons.
Could it be because God never promises physical healing for all believers?
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
If Jesus is our example, He told some "your faith has made you whole". Do I believe that everyone has to have the right amount of faith to be healed? No. But I do believe that for some faith does play a part. But I am not the judge of that. I can't see their heart or what the Holy Spirit may be speaking to them. Could He be telling some..."have faith"?
He also told some "go and sin no more" when healing them. Do I believe that sin is the cause of all sickness? No. But again, I cannot see what God sees. Could one be continuing in a particular sin that He has spoke to them about? Could that hinder their healing? Maybe in some cases it could be the reason.
I don't have all the answers. I do find it hard to believe that a loving Father's will would be for His children to suffer in sickness and pain.
If you believe the Bible then you will have to deal with it being hard to do. Read Job, see the life of the Apostle Paul, how nearly all the disciples died horrific deaths and lived lifes of poverty, persecution, facing the tyrant's steel and the wrath of lions for their faith in Jesus.
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ORIGINAL: map4
But many do. I personally believe it is His will that we walk in health.
It's more important to know what the Bible says is reality, not what our emotions and hearts want to believe.
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ORIGINAL: map4
But I'm not saying that we won't ever be sick. It's how we deal with the pain and sickness when it comes that I believe you and I differ greatly on. Again, I do not know why some are not healed. I believe it is between them and God, there are some things we just don't know.
I also want to say, to be completely honest, that of those you mentioned in your post...I have listened to some of them only a few times, others more. Most, not in a while. I hardly ever watch Christian TV anymore. I have read some of their books. What I got from the ones I listened to, was not that we would never be sick, but that we didn't have to stay that way.
Well this thread and many others are chuck full of video, written, audio documentation that shows they indeed do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
That is my paraphrase. When they said something like "a believer should never be sick", I didn't take it to mean other than what I said. We don't have to stay that way. Maybe I just heard differently or something.
I didn't glean from the ones I heard or read that they were trying to make the ones who were not healed feel guilty about it. At least, I didn't take it that way. Maybe it's because I wasn't taught to make them feel guilty about it. But to try to help them and teach them what we believe the truth of His Word is. Maybe that's why I didn't take it that way but I can see how some would if they didn't understand what was being said. If some are putting guilt on others, that is wrong. But, also there are times when the truth makes us feel "guilty". But the scripture says there is therefore now no condemnaiton for those who are in Christ Jesus.
As far as prosperity, it does not mean that we will be filthy rich. Prosperity means more than money. It is everything that He has provided for us, peace, joy, love, etc.. But finances is a part of it. Does it mean that everyone should be millionares? No, of course not. And I do not agree with the ones who tell people "you have to give to me; give this amount;" etc. I am not against giving, but I do agree that some are wrong in the way they do. My pastor warns us against them, and he is a Rhema grad. I do believe that we can be blessed as we give, but that is not limited to money nor is it why we should give. I do believe in sowing and reaping...whatever it is...good or bad.
I also want to say something about Kenneth Copeland regarding "any man could have died on the cross" or whatever his exact quote was. You know the one.
I think I actually saw the broadcast of that show or maybe I read it in a book. I don't remember. But I do remember seeing it somewhere besides here.
I honestly did not think he meant that anyone could have died for us. I took from it that, while any man could die on a cross, because obviously that was done during that time in history....but, that only Jesus could have died as our Savior because He was the only one able to do that for us. In other words, any man could die on a cross, but not any man could do what Jesus did in dying on the cross.
That is not what he said - he said that any man with enough RHEMA (revelation knowledge) could indeed have done what Jesus did on the cross. Please refer to the Kenneth Copeland thread for the link.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
I was not left with the impression that KC was saying that anyone could have died on a cross for us. Not at all. I was left with a deeper love for our Savior knowing that He was the only one who could do what He did for us on the cross. His shed blood atoned for our sins. Him who knew no sin became sin for us. That is amazing to me. I still don't think we truly grasp what He did for us on the cross, in His death burial and resurrection.
I have personally heard many Wof teachers who have come to our church. Not one of them discounted the blood of Jesus being enough to atone for our sins. So, earthless, I do whole heartedly disgree with you in saying that Wof doesn't think His blood atonement was enough. That is nowhere near what I have read, heard, or been taught.
Could it simple be what you have not personally read, heard, or was taught? That in no way precludes them having taught it and never retracted, correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
I am sure that there are things that we teach or do that you would consider heretical. There is nothing I can do about that. I know that my pastor hears the Holy Spirit. I trust him.
I hope you trust God's Word above any man living today - that you test all things in light of Scripture. What matters is if a self-professing Christian teaches, believes, adheres to the core essentials of Christianity. Not what their feelings say or who they think they are hearing from.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
And I hear the Holy Spirit also. If there is something that doesn't sit right with me, my pastor has an open door to discuss it at any time. He is strong in his beliefs but he nor anyone else can force anyone to believe anything. And, my pastor doesn't agree with all that "Wof preachers" do and say. He speaks about it from his pulpit. He acknowledges that their are Rhema grads who have "gone flaky" so to speak. But we are Wof. He does teach the importance of our words, that we can speak to our problems, etc.
Speak to your problems in regards to what? Your words do not have creative power, you are not God. Faith is not a force and your words are not the containers of said force.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
But, as I stated in my first post...you have to believe what you are saying. He talked about this just yesterday. Just confessing scripture won't do anything if the Holy Spirit hasn't made the Word alive to you. You have to believe it and have faith in God that He will bring it to pass. We are just to speak His Word, stand on it and believe. One important thing that needs to be said, we do not "demand" God to | | | |
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