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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 9:14:05 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: columbine
Mattumanu has made a great point. The WOF beliefs are so similar to those in Christian Science. CScientists also believe that their words and thoughts can thwart sickness and despair from their lives. Personally, I believe that most of these bizarre, errant ideas arise because people listen to humans instead of reading their Bible. The Bible is very clear on this issue and every other issue. All it takes is for someone to take time to read it. It wouldn't take very long to discover that your words and thoughts do not control God or your destiny. God has a plan for your life and He directs it. God is the author of your life. I somehow can't help but think of Job - more godly than most of us, yet God allowed trials in his life. Job became stronger because of those trials. Life is not meant to be perfect here on earth. Adam and Eve took care of that for us. But our life with God awaits us in heaven. THat is where we will find perfection and wealth - the wealth of being with our Father for eternity. That is our prize.
Columbine
greetings earthless,
I have made it to page two, thus far, this is an interesting post.
with Adam and eve sin entered, with Jesus sin exited, for believers of course.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 10:13:48 PM
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golfjack
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It is obvious to me that the I is referring to John the Baptist.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/27/2008 10:22:28 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Iss44:
WOF
Here are some doctrine that WOF Teachers believe:
KEN HAGIN:
"Because we didn't understand what Jesus said, and because we've been religiously brainwashed instead of New Testament taught. We watered down the promises of God, and tacked on what Jesus didn't say. And added on something else to it. Well, he will be alright, 'if it's His will' But it might not be His will, people have said. And yet you don't find that kind of talk in the New Testament."
(Ken Hagin, Christianity In Crisis, audio-tape, Christian Research Institute.)
"It is unscriptural to pray, 'If it is the will of God.' When you put an 'if' in your prayer, you are praying in doubt."
(Dr. John MacArthur, "Charismatic Chaos," page 349. Ken Hagin, Exceedingly growing faith pg.10)
What does the Bible say?
James 4:14-16 (New International Version)
14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.
greetings again I have made it to page 3  ,
I saw a book mentioned there so I thought I'd check it out, to see what Kenneth Hagin really said, it is puzzling why, people would hack a persons statment in such a manner.
(Dr. John MacArthur, "Charismatic Chaos," page 349. Ken Hagin, Exceedingly growing faith pg.10)
never read charismatic chaos, but I have read exceedingly growing faith.
exceedingly growing faith page 10
quotes are in blue this is about a man and woman who had been praying for the womans healing
I began by telling them it is unscriptural to pray, "if it is thy will" concerning anything which God's Word has already promised us. When you put an "if" in your prayer you are praying in doubt.
Some people think they are being humble, when really they are being ignorant. You will get no answer if you put "ifs" in your prayers when God's Word has already made His will plain.
It is only when you are praying a prayer of consecration that you put an "if" in the prayer. This is because in a prayer of consecration you are not certain what the Lord's will is.
on pages 10-12 Ken Hagin goes on to explain her healing, and that she had even brought her husbands mother who was in a wheelchair, and she got healed also.
anyhow one can see how words were intentionally omitted, to change the meaning, as far as the posters quote James 4:14-16, that is what people were saying not praying, ken hagin was talking about already knowing the will of God when you pray, so that you can pray in faith.
example, it is the will of God, that people are saved
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 10:26:19 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 379
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
It is obvious to me that the I is referring to John the Baptist.
Peace, Golfjack
That has nothing to do with the fact that you said that Jesus was baptized with fire and cloven tongues.
The text does not state that. It states specifically that He (Jesus Christ) will baptize you (those listening to John's prophetic message) with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Then in verse 12 John goes on to explain what the statement baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire means.
Again, here is the text so that everyone can read it for themselves.
quote:
Matthew 3:11-12 ESV - 11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He(Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/27/2008 10:51:43 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
I see that most recognize that Kenyon's teachings line up with God's Word. The baptism of Jesus with fire is mentioned in Matt. 3:11-12.
I was taught at Rhema Bible Inst. Many of the classes were taught by the late Kenneth Hagin. I found him to be the most humblest Christian I have ever met. Therefore, Papa dad has taught me much. If anyone knows about WOF, I should. Feel free to ask me questions. OH, by the way, Hagin went to TBN and told some of the Preachers they were too money minded and if they kept it up, they would lose their gifts of the Spirit. Having said that, there are some very good preachers on TBN. I like Kenneth Copeland, Fredrick Price, Joel Osteen, and some others. By the way, I have made it a practice not to tear down someone's miinistry, not less I feel it is heresy. Carlton Pearson is a good example of one who has drifted away.
Peace, Golfjack
I agree about dad Hagin, He was one of the most humblest men of God I have meet, and I thank God for his teachings, I considered rhema, but then again at my age  . people will make charges, but when it comes down to it, they can not back it up. like this metaphysical thing. all they can do is quote from people who cut and chopped statements, took stuff out of context, to sell their own books, and give there seminars.
the only honest way is to have complete knowledge of the teaching you are against, and don't chop their words to fit your view. anything else is deception.
I study denominations and religions and people, including Christians 
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/27/2008 11:20:00 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Is anyone aware of a "true" biblical debate any of the WOF folks have entered into with people who do not agree with their theology inorder to examine one another's beliefs? Anything serious that is not some junk with like minded WOF folks. Rather a serious theological debate examining scripture?
HELLO
well page 3 now, and still no evidence, of Kenyon's teaching and metaphysical being the same, do I really have to sort through 80 odd pages?
and still silence on what I have posted concerning the quotes from Kenyon's books being orthodox or not
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/27/2008 11:22:38 PM
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crankius
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quote:
well page 3 now, and still no evidence, of Kenyon's teaching and metaphysical being the same, do I really have to sort through 80 odd pages?
You could use the search feature for "Kenyon".
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew 
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/27/2008 11:24:08 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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Good night and God bless
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/27/2008 11:27:47 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
well page 3 now, and still no evidence, of Kenyon's teaching and metaphysical being the same, do I really have to sort through 80 odd pages?
You could use the search feature for "Kenyon".
thanks,
time for bed, I will search for the search feature tomorrow.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/28/2008 12:01:26 AM
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golfjack
Posts: 46
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Genn, Thanks for your posts. They have been a blessing for me.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - 10/28/2008 7:02:54 AM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Genn, Thanks for your posts. They have been a blessing for me.
Peace, Golfjack
thank you for the kind words, I'd rather edify then tear down.
I would hope that what I might post could be considered with out pre conceived notions, based on a particular denominational tie,
Christianity is composed of many different denominations, but yet they are all members, if a group does not believe in healing, I do not try to put them outside of Christianity, just because I believe healing is for today also.
But yet many seem to want to put us outside, just because we believe the church should operate as the church of Acts. 
If a brother or sister is truly trusting in Christ Jesus alone, for their salvation, then they are a brother or sister, Jesus Christ, He alone, is the only way to the Father. not a denominational membership, or head knowledge, it is a heart felt faith in Christ alone, a faith of the heart, that causes one to boldly profess with our lips that Jesus is the Christ.
< Message edited by gennaoanothen -- 10/28/2008 7:10:16 AM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 10:08:33 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 728
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Mcleod. Jesus was endowed with the Holy Spirit when He was bapptized with fire and cloven tongues. We as believers have the same Spirit as Jesus did. Same power to preach and wiith healings following. We can all have the same power. In other words, I can do anything Jesus did while on earth. Therefore, Coperland was right on. You see, Biblical facts and not just opinions. Forgive me, for not having enough time to give you scripture to prove my points.
Peace, Golfjack
Well this is a problem with the WOF camp. Like I heard last night a gent named Mark Chironna if I have misspelled his last named please forgive me. Saying that you could faith in to a matter a chunk of gold. If you have enough faith you could be rich in money.
Now once again we have a religion who will talk of love say some right words. Yet the bottom line is the pocket book and what I can get out of it.
gennaoanothen,
quote:
But yet many seem to want to put us outside, just because we believe the church should operate as the church of Acts.
Not putting you to aside. But are you acting like in the story of Simon the Socerer. Then you have I believe there are serious problems. What I see by their fruits that they are appearing seroius about the almighty dollar and a name for themselves.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 11:03:41 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1582
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From: Connecticut
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Am I losing it or is there actually a conversation between two people here praising the teachings of Kenneth Hagin, Ken Copeland Fredrick Price, Joel Osteen, and RHEMA college?
My goodness, Spurgeon was so right in my quote below!
Come quickly Lord Jesus...PLEASE!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 11:22:00 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2708
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Am I losing it or is there actually a conversation between two people here praising the teachings of Kenneth Hagin, Ken Copeland Fredrick Price, Joel Osteen, and RHEMA college?
My goodness, Spurgeon was so right in my quote below!
Come quickly Lord Jesus...PLEASE!
yes, it seems the WOFers have finally reappeared after a long absence. Lord Jesus, save us!
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 12:54:28 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Am I losing it or is there actually a conversation between two people here praising the teachings of Kenneth Hagin, Ken Copeland Fredrick Price, Joel Osteen, and RHEMA college?
My goodness, Spurgeon was so right in my quote below!
Come quickly Lord Jesus...PLEASE!
greetings soxfan,
I am trying to show that the teachings of kenyon and 1 step further, Hagin were not metaphysical, and that both held orthodox views on the major issues of doctrine, particularly kenyon, as far as the rest of the faith camp, I would not be familiar enough with their believes to provide input, and actually to see if anyone who claims their beliefs are metaphysical, even has an understanding of the beliefs of the metaphysical religions. and the histories and dates, etc. etc?
have you had the chance to read the quotes, I have posted from Kenyon's books?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 12:57:24 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Am I losing it or is there actually a conversation between two people here praising the teachings of Kenneth Hagin, Ken Copeland Fredrick Price, Joel Osteen, and RHEMA college?
My goodness, Spurgeon was so right in my quote below!
Come quickly Lord Jesus...PLEASE!
yes, it seems the WOFers have finally reappeared after a long absence. Lord Jesus, save us!
Jesus has already saved us 2,000 years ago, all we have to do is believe it from our heart, and speak it from our lips.
that is said in fun of course , I understand what you said
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 1:30:55 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Mcleod. Jesus was endowed with the Holy Spirit when He was bapptized with fire and cloven tongues. We as believers have the same Spirit as Jesus did. Same power to preach and wiith healings following. We can all have the same power. In other words, I can do anything Jesus did while on earth. Therefore, Coperland was right on. You see, Biblical facts and not just opinions. Forgive me, for not having enough time to give you scripture to prove my points.
Peace, Golfjack
Well this is a problem with the WOF camp. Like I heard last night a gent named Mark Chironna if I have misspelled his last named please forgive me. Saying that you could faith in to a matter a chunk of gold. If you have enough faith you could be rich in money.
Now once again we have a religion who will talk of love say some right words. Yet the bottom line is the pocket book and what I can get out of it.
gennaoanothen,
quote:
But yet many seem to want to put us outside, just because we believe the church should operate as the church of Acts.
Not putting you to aside. But are you acting like in the story of Simon the Socerer. Then you have I believe there are serious problems. What I see by their fruits that they are appearing seroius about the almighty dollar and a name for themselves.
greetings mcleod,
not everyone in the faith camp is concerned about money, in reading kenyon and hagin, I do not see as much on the prosperity aspect as I do the healing aspect, some of us (and not judging another heart) could care less about money, myself I seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness above everything. I have known how to pray for a meal, so has kenyon, so has Hagin, We do not get discouraged or loose faith during the hard times.
Simeon was not seeking after money, he wanted to "purchase" the ability to
"lay hands on the people to receive the Holy Ghost" (which is actually a gift from God) it looks like he repented vs 21-24, He was also a believer who was baptized, he used to be a sorcerror vs 9, He also noticed the signs and miracles done by Philip vs 13, Peter and John came that the believers would receive the Holy Spirit via laying on of hands vs 14-18, Acts 8th chapter.
I have a co-worker whos father was an atheist, I have told her about God, prayed for her twice, God has healed her twice, she now knows that God is.
when you witness to a person the truth and they listen with tears in their eyes you know God is at work, God wants that person saved, not connend into saying a prayer. it is from the heart not the head.
there are problems in the wof camp, there are problems in all the camps, I look at the camps, we have a problem with correct communication, to many misunderstandings, and misquotes, because of a lack of understanding.
God bless
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 1:38:29 PM
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golfjack
Posts: 46
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Genn and others, I agree that the Church is pretty divided along denominational lines. But, as long people are saved and headed to heaven, I have no problems with them.
Some straight talk: I go to the streets many times and just ask questions. I do find that many are lost and don't know much on how to be saved. I find that many don't go to church ( even saved people). Money seems to be a key factor. Today, people to me are stingy and way too much into the world. I believe we must find a way to get people into our churches. I believe one way is to get out their and preach and teach with power. For example, if a believer sees a sick or lame person, ask them if you could pray for them. Lay hands on them and declare healing for them in the name of Jesus. Think about it, This is how the Book of Acts Church grew in numbers. Jesus did this and many followed Him. Another problem is unbelief. Yes, even believers can have unbelief. I believe unbelief is the number one reason we don't see that many miracles and healings today in our great country. God's people need to be taught faith. We need more anointed teachers in the Body of Christ.
As you guys know, I am a evangelistic preacher. I need some prayer, as I have been invited to preach in a Catholic church in Colorado. I have met some wonderful Catholic priests at Rhema. I don't agree with Catholic Theology, but there are some who are interested in the Gifts of the Spirit, and need to be taught. Catholics need salvation just like any other denomination. I believe there are too many people sitting in church that are not saved.
One more thing: A preacher friend of mine has invited me to go with him to Israel to preach the Gospel in Christian churches. I need prayer for this too.
God is moving very fast in these last days and hope all of you are prepared for the last outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Some day, we will see churches filled to capacity and will probably have to have services every day. Please jump on God's team and rejoice and be glad in it.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 7:22:29 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Genn and others, I agree that the Church is pretty divided along denominational lines. But, as long people are saved and headed to heaven, I have no problems with them.
Some straight talk: I go to the streets many times and just ask questions. I do find that many are lost and don't know much on how to be saved. I find that many don't go to church ( even saved people). Money seems to be a key factor. Today, people to me are stingy and way too much into the world. I believe we must find a way to get people into our churches. I believe one way is to get out their and preach and teach with power. For example, if a believer sees a sick or lame person, ask them if you could pray for them. Lay hands on them and declare healing for them in the name of Jesus. Think about it, This is how the Book of Acts Church grew in numbers. Jesus did this and many followed Him. Another problem is unbelief. Yes, even believers can have unbelief. I believe unbelief is the number one reason we don't see that many miracles and healings today in our great country. God's people need to be taught faith. We need more anointed teachers in the Body of Christ.
As you guys know, I am a evangelistic preacher. I need some prayer, as I have been invited to preach in a Catholic church in Colorado. I have met some wonderful Catholic priests at Rhema. I don't agree with Catholic Theology, but there are some who are interested in the Gifts of the Spirit, and need to be taught. Catholics need salvation just like any other denomination. I believe there are too many people sitting in church that are not saved.
One more thing: A preacher friend of mine has invited me to go with him to Israel to preach the Gospel in Christian churches. I need prayer for this too.
God is moving very fast in these last days and hope all of you are prepared for the last outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Some day, we will see churches filled to capacity and will probably have to have services every day. Please jump on God's team and rejoice and be glad in it.
Peace, Golfjack
Golfjack,
your in my prayers we are in agreement.
here is a web site for you, not sure if you know of Francis Macnutt and his wife Judith, they are Catholics, he is one of the original charismatic catholics, after receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the southern Baptist in Israel had her as "director of there center of prayer"
christianhealingmin.org
read their front page, talk about denominational walls falling down, she is a psychologist he has a medical background also and is involved in getting prayer into the medical community. he has wrote several books, I do recommend "the healing reawakening", it is loaded with info on healing and church history. Perhaps the web site will be of help with your meeting. They are reachable, the Holy Spirit shall lead.
I should get some more of his books.
I read your post and smiled, in my younger years I was a Catholic, (about a year )To be fair to Catholics, I have meet many that sincerely love the Lord, and have even felt God's presence in one particular Catholic church, not that I have been in a lot of them.
For a recent update on my co worker, who was healed, who's father was an atheist, she told me today, her brother is in bondage to drugs, and wants out, but can't, I told her Jesus can set him free, he also wants to know about God, I told her to set up a meeting for us. her father may have passed away an atheist, somebody must have been praying for the grown children, because they are not going to go out of this world atheist, God is good, and I thank the Lord right now for delivering him from drugs and saving him.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 8:39:16 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3401
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Ok WOF teachers--
What happens if someone prays, but God still doesn't heal them?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 9:35:21 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Ok WOF teachers--
What happens if someone prays, but God still doesn't heal them?
they stay sick, of course.  LOL
my turn for a question, seeings I answered yours, already.
Did Jesus (God) ever not heal anyone who came to Him in Faith, in the new testament? and did Jesus do the perfect will of God?
Please be careful with that joke. I understand you said it in innocence, but it is no laughing matter to Crankius.
I understand that is why I deleted it, it could be taken the wrong way.
I have been sick and not healed at first prayer, but I remained consistent and in faith, for months on end, and I did receive the healing. consistence does not mean demanding, I was consistent in knowing that it is the will of God to heal, and that he still does.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 9:40:13 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 1850
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Not surprisingly, no cure for cancer was ever found.)
God cures cancer, would you like a quote, from History of the united brethern, page 17 (time of writting 1730) to believe against hope is the root of the gift of miracles, and I owe this testimony to our beloved church, that apostolic powers are there manifested. We have had undeniable proofs thereof in the unequivocal discovery of things, persons, and circumstances, which could not have been humanly discovered, in the healings of maladies in themselves incurable, such as cancers, consumptions, when the patient was in the agonies of death.
I got a ton of quotes on this topic, from church records throughout the centuries, why God has healed people of cancer when I have prayed.
We serve a Great God!!!!
I prayed for God to heal my dad of cancer. God healed him but not by curing him of the cancer. My dad's with God now.
Here's my question for you. Why wasn't my prayer as powerful as yours? Should I have asked you to pray for my dad since my prayers apparently weren't as effective?
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2008 9:42:23 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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I just finished reading the section on "christian science" in kingdom of the cults,
there is absolutley no way possible for anyone with intelligence to proclaim that e w kenyon taught metaphysical beliefs or got his teaching from quimby.
for anyone interested I can direct you to a link where you can listen to quimbys teachings audibly online, and they are not even close to orthodox Christianity.
and I find it impossible to believe anyone associated with the publishing of that book "kingdom of the cults" could have honestly made a statement like that, did they not read what they wrote concerning Mary baker eddy and her teachings.
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