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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:13:22 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
salvation
you must believe and confess Romans 10:9-10
the Bible is full of conditions for receiving from God
refuse to believe and go to hell concerning Romans 10:9-10
I'm just making certain I understand what you mean by "benefits".
Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Salvation is a gift of atonement and righteousness, given by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, at His great cost. It is not a "benefit", and we do not earn it.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:34:10 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Crankius,
I personally never bought into any Word of Faith/Latter Rain teachings. I simply was involved with such movements because they were and are present in many of our church circles. Especially in large inner-cities.
Got it. I just misunderstood.
So in helping people get out of WOF teachings, other than the Word of God, have there been any excellent books you have found helpful?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:41:46 PM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
2 Peter 2:24 confirms this
???
I think this is the wrong reference. There isn't a 2 Peter 2:24.
There is a 1 Peter 2:24. Here it is in context:
1 Peter 2:19-25
For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: "Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
I see no promise for physical healing of my temporary body in this passage.
Ah, you bet me too it Crankius. You are correct sir.
I'm also waiting for the verse in Matthew that disproves this. I think I know which one he is referring too though.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:46:34 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Crankius,
I personally never bought into any Word of Faith/Latter Rain teachings. I simply was involved with such movements because they were and are present in many of our church circles. Especially in large inner-cities.
Got it. I just misunderstood.
So in helping people get out of WOF teachings, other than the Word of God, have there been any excellent books you have found helpful?
What I have found is that the actual video, audio and written evidence of those individuals these people adhere to works best. The actual proof of them speaking false/failed prophecies that never came to pass.. the actual proof of their heretical teachings on the core essentials of biblical Christianity.
I can personally recommend Dr. Erwin Lutzer's (The Moody Bible Church | Chicago) books on the topics. 'Christianity in Crisis' by Hank Hanegraaff. Books by Ravi Zacharias and Paul Copan.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:50:13 PM
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dwtramm
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Ah, yes I found the passage that was referred too.
quote:
Matthew8:17 ESV - This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "He took our illnesses and bore our diseases."
Let's look just quickly at the context on this. Is this referencing Christ's atonement, or something else?
Let's allow Scripture to interpret for us.
quote:
Matthew 8:14-17 ESV - 14 And when Jesus entered Peter’s house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. 15 He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him. 16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "He took our illnesses and bore our diseases."
According to this passage, this is not talking about the atonement, but Christ healing during the 3 and a half years of His ministry on earth. To me the passage is clear on this,notice the hilighted verses.
In other words, this passage in Isaiah was fulfilled before the cross, not during.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:58:48 PM
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dwtramm
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I found Christianity in Crisis to be a very informative book, although I couldn't finish it...I tried twice.
Once while I was WOF I tried to read it. It didn't help, just made me mad and I was finding reasons not to accept it, like, the context of the quotes and what not.
I tried to read it again this year, an updated version of it. I couldn't finish it either. It made me mad again, but for different reasons. It brought back some horrible memories of things I had said, done, and believed in the name of Christ.
I think the videos posted on the internet are a very good tool, you get things out of horses mouth as the saying goes.
For me, it was studying and interpreting Scripture based on the context, not some 20th, or 21st century interpretation, that began to open my eyes.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 2:19:44 PM
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earthless
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There is an updated version of the book coming out. Also, the original book came with a CD and audio tapes of their teachings, etc.. And the book also came in a CD format that included the audio of such.
Did you ever hear that?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 2:35:39 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Scripture does not promise us health and wealth. Nowhere in Scripture are we absolutely guaranteed physical healing in this lifetime. Nowhere.
You sir are correct on that.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 2:50:49 PM
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golfjack
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God'smusiic, Explain to me how we are spiritually healed? My spirit does not need healing
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 4:49:59 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 1163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
God'smusiic, Explain to me how we are spiritually healed? My spirit does not need healing
Peace, Golfjack
Eph 2:1 - 10 (ESV) 1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked,
following the course of this world,
following the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh,
carrying out the desires of the body£ and the mind,
and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4But£ God,
being rich in mercy,
because of the great love with which he loved us,
5even when we were dead in our trespasses,
made us alive together with Christ—
by grace you have been saved—
6and raised us up with him
and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the coming ages
he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace
in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith.
And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God,
9not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.
10For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 7:31:05 PM
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crankius
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quote:
Then the entire 28th chapter of Deut,
We are not under risk of being brought back to Egypt in ships... 
The 28th chapter of Deuteronomy is part of the covenant God commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel.
There were specific blessings for following the law, and curses for not following the law.
Paul made it clear that we are cursed completely if we think we can follow the law:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
According to this standard, no matter how good we think we are being, we are cursed! We all deserve all the bad we get, including eternal separation from God.
In Christ, we get what we don't deserve, and He gets what we deserve. He gets the wrath of God for our sins, while we gain His righteousness before God so that we do not stand condemned or cursed.
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us.
This is not in any way a guarantee that in this temporary life all will be endless blessings for us if we just believe on Christ! To believe so is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 8:24:48 PM
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shemaromans
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
here probaly is our biggest division, and probably one of the reasons for the bitterness displayed towards those that believe that it is the will of God to heal, and to heal all.
the ability to communicate in a manner that will not offend our brothers and sisters, and yet not compromise what we believe or what is our faith.
and then on the other hand, those that do not believe as we, should not get offended when we offer what it is we believe.
for the most part all Christians will agree that God does heal, but the answers are in the Bible.
it is getting late, time for bed.
God bless
One of the biggest problems is that "healing" beliefs lead to a system of works:
If I pray hard enough, then God...
If I read my Bible enough, then God...
If I go to church enough, then God...
If I'm consistent enough, then God...
If I please God enough, then God...
If I have enough faith, then God...
If man does enough of _____ or had enough of _______, then God will heal.
A works-based belief...
Great comment.
never heard it presented that way, I disagree totally with that thought.
God gives gifts, as I have shown with Simon the sorcerer in Acts, receiving the Holy Spirit via laying on of hands was a gift, Simon thought he could purchase that gift.
God has set some conditions in his word, example if my people shall humble themselves and seek me, then will I hear and heal their land, if a person humbles themselves and seeks God, should that be considered works based?
if you believe with your heart and confess with your mouth, you shall be saved. is that works based? or earning something (a gift) from God, no it is not, it is obeying the way that God has set for us.
Since I wasn't referring to gifts or salvation, your response doesn't adequately refute my point.
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 10:35:00 PM
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gennaoanothen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It's a works based cult belief system.
There I said it.
so are you saying that we work for our salvation? LOL
why not then call us, word of works, then instead of word of faith, our new initials from our brothers and sisters WOW
surley you have read the word of God, he does set conditions, to some of His benefits. because a person keeps these conditions does not mean they are working for the benefits.
some will go to any length to discredit others, and I am sure that does not please God
I will go to any length to discredit false teachings and proclaim His Word. Especially to those caught in such circles.
earthless I am shock that you actually said you will go to any length, the any length I referred to was making false statements and accusations, as in the statement made. "it is a works based cult belief system"
Honestly, I would expect Christians to act like Christians, and not the tv personalities that spin stories and make fabrications. My Bible says that the devil is the father of lies. john 8:44
It would be nice to be able to carry on this conversation with my brothers and sisters, in the Lord, who have misunderstands concerning our beliefs, and to be able to do it in a polite and Christian manner, people seem to get upset because we state it is the "will of God to heal all", etc etc. and then to have a bombard of false accusations only creates a fog and distracts from being able, to focus on the topics or questions some have presented.
I have taken the time to present some statements in E. W. Kenyon's writings, that are very much orthodox and very different then Christian science, even though many have accused him of being Christian science, and they are totally ignored. I have quoted the books and the page numbers, if any one cared to examine for themselves or the context of the quotes in the chapters, I will also take the time to quote from the book "the kingdom of the cults" the section on Christian science, which mr. hanegraaff was involved in, and quote from Christianity in crisis where mr hanegraaff makes the accusation of metaphysical or Christian science origins, and show that he is not speaking the truth, it is impossible to have knowledge of Christian science and make that statement.
and again you have ignored those post, not that you are required to comment.
but to make flat out statements, like Hagin gave Branham the thumbs up and Branhamn was anti trinity, I am sure you are aware that Kenyon and Hagin were not anti trinity, you say that, but you do not present facts or proof, as in when did branham take an anti trinity beliefe, when did Hagin give him the thumbs up, where is the proof, did Hagin know Branham was anti trinity, if he was?,
I honestly believe the biggest grievience any of you have against us is the healing issue and the will of God to heal all issue, and the prosperity end is just secound place.
Honestly, the Bible does show that it is the will of God to heal all, and given the opurtunity to, shall we go to God's Word, and let us all act Christ like?
Now I am willing to give attention to what others may have to say, and I would hope others would politly give attention to what I have to say. The issue of brothers and sisters feelings being hurt does concern me, and I would like to be able to communicate the truth to them without hurting feeligs.
I fully expect an atheist to have their feelings hurt, when I let them know that Jesus is the only way, they do not like to here the truth, but the truth of God is the truth, and I can not compromise.
This is all said in a loving manner.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:02:01 PM
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colliefan
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The Ulimate Healing
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:06:31 PM
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dwtramm
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Personally, I don't know enough of Kenyon that I could speak intelligently about him, so I have remained silent on him.
As far as it always is God's will to heal, I do believe that there has been enough Scriptures given in this thread to either disprove that, or at least to call a person to question the validity of that statement, and hopefully they would do their own investigation from Scripture, leaving Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland, or people with opposing views than theirs out of it.
Let Scripture interpret itself on the matter.
Take one Scripture that you feel teaches that it is always God's will to heal, and maybe a discussion can begin from there. Let's not get bogged down with several Scriptures at once, but one at at time should produce some lively discussion.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:15:18 PM
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crankius
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quote:
Take one Scripture that you feel teaches that it is always God's will to heal, and maybe a discussion can begin from there. Let's not get bogged down with several Scriptures at once, but one at at time should produce some lively discussion.
This is a good plan.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:27:13 PM
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colliefan
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Phil 2:25 - 30 (ESV) 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.
Paul had to send this individual home to Philipi b/c of an illness.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:36:32 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
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quote:
shermaromans
One of the biggest problems is that "healing" beliefs lead to a system of works:
If I pray hard enough, then God...
If I read my Bible enough, then God...
If I go to church enough, then God...
If I'm consistent enough, then God...
If I please God enough, then God...
If I have enough faith, then God...
If man does enough of _____ or had enough of _______, then God will heal.
A works-based belief...
I chopped out some of the post.
We are not works based, we are not saved by works, we are saved by grace.
We do diligently study God's Word, to know our Fathers will for us, and we place faith in our Father, that what He wills for us, and promises to us, we can possess, that is faith. It is our sincere desire to do Father's Will, and please Him. not because we have to, to be saved, but because we Love God, and we Love our fellow man, and want them to enjoy eternity with us, in Father's Kingdom, and enjoy the abundant life Jesus gave to us. John 10:10
But let me in love, take the time to go over your list above.
1) If I pray hard enough, then God...
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
2)If I read my Bible enough, then God...
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Proverbs 4:20My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life
3)If I go to church enough, then God...
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching
4)If I'm consistent enough, then God...
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
5)If I please God enough, then God...
Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
6)If I have enough faith, then God...
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
this one is extra added in for you
7)forgive so that your Father can forgive you
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:40:41 PM
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gennaoanothen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
Take one Scripture that you feel teaches that it is always God's will to heal, and maybe a discussion can begin from there. Let's not get bogged down with several Scriptures at once, but one at at time should produce some lively discussion.
This is a good plan.
I agree it is a good plan, it is late now though had to comment on the works statment, and I shall get some rest.
God bless
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:46:50 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 1850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
shermaromans
One of the biggest problems is that "healing" beliefs lead to a system of works:
If I pray hard enough, then God...
If I read my Bible enough, then God...
If I go to church enough, then God...
If I'm consistent enough, then God...
If I please God enough, then God...
If I have enough faith, then God...
If man does enough of _____ or had enough of _______, then God will heal.
A works-based belief...
I chopped out some of the post.
We are not works based, we are not saved by works, we are saved by grace.
We do diligently study God's Word, to know our Fathers will for us, and we place faith in our Father, that what He wills for us, and promises to us, we can possess, that is faith. It is our sincere desire to do Father's Will, and please Him. not because we have to, to be saved, but because we Love God, and we Love our fellow man, and want them to enjoy eternity with us, in Father's Kingdom, and enjoy the abundant life Jesus gave to us. John 10:10
But let me in love, take the time to go over your list above.
1) If I pray hard enough, then God...
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
2)If I read my Bible enough, then God...
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Proverbs 4:20My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life
3)If I go to church enough, then God...
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching
4)If I'm consistent enough, then God...
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
5)If I please God enough, then God...
Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
6)If I have enough faith, then God...
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
this one is extra added in for you
7)forgive so that your Father can forgive you
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Thank you for taking the time to quote verses. I always love reading scripture.
I don't disagree that we should do all of the things that I listed. That comes from obedience brought about by the Holy Spirit. What I disagree with is the mindset that God won't heal if you don't have enough faith, etc. Can you see how that leads to elitism? Can you see how that could lead people to work harder in order to earn favor with God? Our works should be the outgrowth of our fruit, materializing out of love for and gratitude towards God, not so that we can get something in return.
As for the verse on forgiveness, why did you include that one specifically for me? And how does that speak about healing? It appears to focus upon forgiveness.
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But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2008 7:37:49 AM
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dwtramm
Posts: 379
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Phil 2:25 - 30 (ESV) 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.
Paul had to send this individual home to Philipi b/c of an illness.
I forgot about this passage, thanks for sharing that. Also notice in v. 30 that Paul said that he nearly died for the work of Christ...that is a rather telling comment Paul made, if feel.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2008 7:39:04 AM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
quote:
shermaromans
One of the biggest problems is that "healing" beliefs lead to a system of works:
If I pray hard enough, then God...
If I read my Bible enough, then God...
If I go to church enough, then God...
If I'm consistent enough, then God...
If I please God enough, then God...
If I have enough faith, then God...
If man does enough of _____ or had enough of _______, then God will heal.
A works-based belief...
I chopped out some of the post.
We are not works based, we are not saved by works, we are saved by grace.
We do diligently study God's Word, to know our Fathers will for us, and we place faith in our Father, that what He wills for us, and promises to us, we can possess, that is faith. It is our sincere desire to do Father's Will, and please Him. not because we have to, to be saved, but because we Love God, and we Love our fellow man, and want them to enjoy eternity with us, in Father's Kingdom, and enjoy the abundant life Jesus gave to us. John 10:10
But let me in love, take the time to go over your list above.
1) If I pray hard enough, then God...
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
2)If I read my Bible enough, then God...
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Proverbs 4:20My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life
3)If I go to church enough, then God...
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching
4)If I'm consistent enough, then God...
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
5)If I please God enough, then God...
Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
6)If I have enough faith, then God...
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
this one is extra added in for you
7)forgive so that your Father can forgive you
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Thank you for taking the time to quote verses. I always love reading scripture.
I don't disagree that we should do all of the things that I listed. That comes from obedience brought about by the Holy Spirit. What I disagree with is the mindset that God won't heal if you don't have enough faith, etc. Can you see how that leads to elitism? Can you see how that could lead people to work harder in order to earn favor with God? Our works should be the outgrowth of our fruit, materializing out of love for and gratitude towards God, not so that we can get something in return.
As for the verse on forgiveness, why did you include that one specifically for me? And how does that speak about healing? It appears to focus upon forgiveness.
good morning,
was not meant to be personally for you, just an extra put in there for you.
the mindset that God wont heal if you do not have enough faith, actually that is very clear in scripture, when you examine the healings and miracles, done by our Lord, he could not heal in His home country or do many miracles.
I agree all of our works should be out of Love for God, to please Him, to obey Him, because of our Love for Him. "faith worketh by Love"
the extra on forgiveness shows a condition, some request forgiveness from
God, but yet will not forgive others.
be blessed
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ma'am. 
for lack of better words...thank you!
