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ORIGINAL: crankius

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ORIGINAL: crankius

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God certainly allowed Job to go through a time of physical suffering (Job 1 - 2). In none of these cases is it stated that the sickness was caused by sin or unbelief. Nor did Paul or any of the others act as if they thought their healing was guaranteed in the atonement.

Earthless,

I hear a lot of the three friends in the WOF teachings.

If only you hadn't sinned so much, if only you would repent correctly, if only you would pray so that God would hear you...

I have a link to a sermon given by John Piper on Job: When the Righteous Suffer, Part 1.

I can't link it the real way because my link button doesn't work. Here is the long link:

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByConference/42/3335_Job_When_the_Righteous_Suffer_Part_1/

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ORIGINAL: earthless

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

Yes word of faith

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ORIGINAL: earthless

Then my comment stands. Word of Faith did not come onto the scene till EW Kenyon introduced it to Christian circles.

Then earthless, I would take it you have no knowledge of "faith cure" denomination, which Kenyon was involved in that predates word faith, and Christian science, and please take notice of those two words "FAITH-CURE" not shouting just wanted them noticed, thank you

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

and, I have attended many denominations, I study denominations,
branham was not word faith.

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ORIGINAL: earthless
His teachings show otherwise.

that's what you state, but it is not a fact, had any word faith teacher or preacher, actually preached against the trinity doctrin, you would have mentioned it, and you haven't so it shows we are orthodox in trinity view, another objection answered.

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

I have yet to see you quote any reffrences, that is what I look for.

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ORIGINAL: earthless
All I have done in this and the plethora of other related threads is post references. Including video, audio and written documentation/evidence. Anyone here can attest to that. Branham was heavily influenced by the sect of 'Jesus Only' Pentecostals (which T.D. Jakes also comes from).

Here is a small collection of Branham quotes where he denies the Trinity:

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“Why don't you examine I deleted branhams writtings for the sake of space on this post, because what branham wrote has no bearing on "word faith", as you have noted branham may have been from "Jesus only" pentecostals, and not word faith

Does t d Jakes deny the trinity? I dare so he doesn't, otherwise you would have brought it up. even if Td Jakes came from that circle, as you state.
NOTICE THIS PLEASE!! dwrtramm on this thread states they came out of word faith, does that make dwrtramm word faith? or a believer in the teachings of word faith? I used to be catholic, I no longer believe what they believe, let me ask you your wife came out of "word faith" is she word faith?

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

No, Kenyon was not methaphysical or Christian science, prove that with Kenyons writtings, thank you

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ORIGINAL: earthless
Have you finished reading this thread? Sorry, but I don't want to keep repeating what I have already shared.

you are repeating what you have already shared,
why are you unwilling to repeat, if you provided any proof of kenyon being Christian Science?
Honestly, I would prefer to get on with the scripture, request others have presented, so that we may discuss the Word of God and the matter of healing, instead of back peddling 80 pages, only to find nothing concerning proof presented, that Kenyon was Christian Science, because there is none.
I would hope that my post come across in a polite way, as that is the intent.
God bless

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

Earthless, I have a question for you.

I know that WOF is very active in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles, which I'm a part of.

But how active are they in the non-pentecostal/charismatic branches? Is it laity driven or Pastor driven in those circles?

Just curious because I have rarely been or even ministered outside of Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, and your statement of seeing it in other branches of the church intrigued me.

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

I can't speak for Kenyon intelligently, so I don't know if he endorsed Branham or not, but why to do many WOF people do I wonder?

By the way, I do believe TD Jakes is Oneness. The Denomination that he is a bishop in is a oneness Pentecostal denomination.

TD Jakes stays silent on the Trinity issue because a number of the ministers he ministers with believe in the Trinity.

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ORIGINAL: earthless

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ORIGINAL: earthless

Another example? The Apostle Paul and others in Scripture who God did not heal, did not save from the lions claw, from being beheaded, or the hot dripping oil.

please permit me to quote Paul,
2 timothy 4: 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
of course when it is God's predetermaine time for Paul, He went home, but Paul spoke words of faith here.

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ORIGINAL: earthless
Millions of born-again believers that die because of their faith in Jesus.
Word of Faither's will tell us that they did not have enough faith.. that they did not "speak into existence" such things. Ironically their own leaders have died from diseases and such.

listen to this "word of faither"
to die for your faith in Jesus is a blessing, I confess that with my own lips

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ORIGINAL: earthless
There are numerous verses in Scripture which substantiate the view that physical healing in mortal life is not guaranteed in the atonement and that it is not always God's will to heal.

really

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ORIGINAL: earthless

The apostle Paul couldn't heal Timothy's stomach problem (1 Timothy 5:23) nor could he heal Trophimus at Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20) or Epaphroditus (Philippians 3:25-27).

to say that Paul could not heal Timothy, in 1st Timothy 5:23, is not correct, first of all God does the healing. Notice acts 19:11 says God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Paul was writting to Timothy, so he was not there to lay hands on him, he gave him advice in that letter, keep in mind also God has given us advice in His Word for health and hygeine.
As far as the other 2 scripture verses you presented 2 timothy 4:20, does not apply and again Paul was not there, now I am sorry but I can not find a Philippians 3:25-27 in my Bible, it stops at verses 21.
ok I looked and found in Philippians 2:25-30 "Epaphroditus" , I am sorry earthless but what you said is not what the Bible says, this is important that you read again, notice in Philippians 2:30 that Epaphroditus, was sick unto death, because of the work of Christ, but look at verse 27 "God had mercy on Him" and on Paul, He got healed!!!! please study carefully verses 23-30. Epaphrodtus was sorrowful that his fellow Christians heard he was sick. vs 26.
God had mercy on Him, He got healed vs 27
He was sick, worked himself sick, for Christ, servicing Paul vs 30 & 25.
I hope you do understand the time I have taken to look into your presentation of scripture, I must comment on one more, right now, the rest hopefully I will find the time latter. I need now to comment on your quote of John 11:4 below.

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ORIGINAL: earthless

Paul spoke of "a bodily illness" he had (Galatians 4:13-15). He also suffered a "thorn in the flesh" which God allowed him to retain (2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

God certainly allowed Job to go through a time of physical suffering (Job 1 - 2). In none of these cases is it stated that the sickness was caused by sin or unbelief. Nor did Paul or any of the others act as if they thought their healing was guaranteed in the atonement.

They accepted their situations and trusted in God's grace for sustenance. It is noteworthy that on one occasion Jesus indicated that sickness could be for the glory of God (John 11:4).

This statment is not correct, as a matter of fact it is the exact oposite of what Jesus said, please earthless review John 11th chapter again, you are mistaken, and I am sure not intenionaly.
Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead for the glory of God, that the son of God would be glorified, God is glorified in miracles and healings so is Jesus, see vs 4 , see also vs 40-45

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ORIGINAL: earthless

Finally, there are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

Paul said "our outer man is decaying" (2 Corinthians 4:16). Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

Am I saying we shouldn't pray for healing? No, not at all. I'm just saying that after we've asked for healing, we need to submit to God's sovereign will. He may have a purpose in allowing our illness.

The above post from a few pages back was completely overlooked by those claiming physical healing is guaranteed.

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ORIGINAL: golfjack

Is God running this world or not? Is the world a mess? Is Satan the god of this world or not? You see, one has to ask these questions to see if God is in complete control. Do you still believe that Satan doesn't bring sickness? Do you get my point?



Peace, Golfjack

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ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

I can't speak for Kenyon intelligently, so I don't know if he endorsed Branham or not, but why to do many WOF people do I wonder?

By the way, I do believe TD Jakes is Oneness. The Denomination that he is a bishop in is a oneness Pentecostal denomination.

TD Jakes stays silent on the Trinity issue because a number of the ministers he ministers with believe in the Trinity.

TD Jakes says that God appears in three "manifestations."

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

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ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

I can't speak for Kenyon intelligently, so I don't know if he endorsed Branham or not, but why to do many WOF people do I wonder?

By the way, I do believe TD Jakes is Oneness. The Denomination that he is a bishop in is a oneness Pentecostal denomination.

TD Jakes stays silent on the Trinity issue because a number of the ministers he ministers with believe in the Trinity.

TD Jakes says that God appears in three "manifestations."

I do not hear TD Jakes preach much, what do you suppose He meant by that?

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

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ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

I can't speak for Kenyon intelligently, so I don't know if he endorsed Branham or not, but why to do many WOF people do I wonder?

By the way, I do believe TD Jakes is Oneness. The Denomination that he is a bishop in is a oneness Pentecostal denomination.

TD Jakes stays silent on the Trinity issue because a number of the ministers he ministers with believe in the Trinity.

TD Jakes says that God appears in three "manifestations."

I do not hear TD Jakes preach much, what do you suppose He meant by that?

Three manifestations is a common term that oneness pentecostals use.

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ORIGINAL: golfjack

Is God running this world or not? Is the world a mess? Is Satan the god of this world or not? You see, one has to ask these questions to see if God is in complete control. Do you still believe that Satan doesn't bring sickness? Do you get my point?



Peace, Golfjack

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

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ORIGINAL: golfjack

Is God running this world or not? Is the world a mess? Is Satan the god of this world or not? You see, one has to ask these questions to see if God is in complete control. Do you still believe that Satan doesn't bring sickness? Do you get my point?



Peace, Golfjack

if satan did not have some kind of authority, he could not have offered Jesus all those kingdoms, it would not have been a legitimate temptation to present, when Jesus was fasting 40 days.
satan gives the sickness, God did permit it on Job, God did not put it on Him, in the end God healed and restored even more to Job for his faithfulness to God.
so sickness is from the devil, there was none prior to sin, and in heaven where there will be no sin, there will be no sickness
Father your will be done on earth, just as your will is done in Heaven Thy Kingdom come.
the thief comes to steal kill and destroy, Jesus came to give us life more abundantly. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and do God's will on this earth, and to commision us the authority to do it also.

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ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

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ORIGINAL: dwtramm

I can't speak for Kenyon intelligently, so I don't know if he endorsed Branham or not, but why to do many WOF people do I wonder?

By the way, I do believe TD Jakes is Oneness. The Denomination that he is a bishop in is a oneness Pentecostal denomination.

TD Jakes stays silent on the Trinity issue because a number of the ministers he ministers with believe in the Trinity.

TD Jakes says that God appears in three "manifestations."

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ORIGINAL: crankius

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

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ORIGINAL: golfjack

Is God running this world or not? Is the world a mess? Is satan the god of this world or not? You see, one has to ask these questions to see if God is in complete control. Do you still believe that satan doesn't bring sickness? Do you get my point?



Peace, Golfjack

if satan did not have some kind of authority, he could not have offered Jesus all those kingdoms, it would not have been a legitimate temptation to present, when Jesus was fasting 40 days.
satan gives the sickness, God did permit it on Job, God did not put it on Him, in the end God healed and restored even more to Job for his faithfulness to God.
so sickness is from the devil, there was none prior to sin, and in heaven where there will be no sin, there will be no sickness
Father your will be done on earth, just as your will is done in Heaven Thy Kingdom come.
the thief comes to steal kill and destroy, Jesus came to give us life more abundantly. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and do God's will on this earth, and to commission us the authority to do it also.

There is a theological flaw with this. satan is not omnipresent, omniscient, or omnipotent.

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ORIGINAL: colliefan

Acts 12:1 - 3 (ESV) 1About that time Herod the king laid violent hands on some who belonged to the church. 2He killed James the brother of John with the sword, 3and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread.


According to WOF doctrine, James must have not had enough faith to escape the sword.

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"does the Bible promise we will suffer sickness to Glorify God",

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ORIGINAL: colliefan

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"does the Bible promise we will suffer sickness to Glorify God",

John 11:1 - 4 (ESV) 1Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

John 9:1 - 3 (ESV) 1As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

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ORIGINAL: earthless

Yes, TD Jakes is a Oneness Pentecostal. He denies the Trinity.

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ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen

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ORIGINAL: colliefan

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"does the Bible promise we will suffer sickness to Glorify God",

John 11:1 - 4 (ESV) 1Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

John 9:1 - 3 (ESV) 1As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

again I will repeate what I have said to earthless concerning those verses, Jesus was glorified when Jesus raised Lazarus fromthe dead John 11th chapter.
see also vs 45

in John 9:1-3 the works of God, was to heal that mans blindness, otherwise if it was to be blind Jesus undid the works of God. look at the peoples statments in vs 16 and vs 38
Read both of these occurences in the entire chapter, that they sit in and you will understand it.

as I go back through the Bible studying the occurences of healings and miracles, the Holy Spirit reveals more to me, the first time around I may observe the faith involved, in each occurence, then the next time around I will be advised of the Glory that God receives, if you look at the miracles and healings, you will see the Glory given to God through the miracles, you will see the people become believers in Christ, etc. etc, each healing and miracle are filled with gems.