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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 5:27:05 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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I don't think any of us intended to make you feel badly, Kat. I'm sorry if my post came across that way.
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 6:09:38 PM
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justjennhere
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To answer a few posts back -- I didn't know that about second labors being the shortest statistically. That gives me hope for a third. 
And, yeah, I'm sure a one hour labor sounds preferable to laboring for a long, long time... but it still wasn't a walk in the park.  Most intense hour of my life!
Kat -- I think your question was a legitimate one and one that fits this topic. I have always believed, and still do, that God will provide for the needs (both for my children and for my needs and wisdom as a parent) of the children He blesses our family with. So, if we had three, four, five more (whatever!), He would supply our needs, including my ability to raise them well, even though I certainly don't have that ability on my own right now.
Still, though.  I know I'll get some opposition to this, but I DO question the wisdom of families who continue to have more and more children when they can't take care of the ones they currently have -- financially, spiritually, emotionally, etc. I don't know that the problem is having more children, though, but rather might be a spiritual problem, whether it be in the form of bad stewardship with God's resources, Mom and Dad not being right spiritually and not allowing God to work through them to raise their children, etc. Does that make sense? The problem is not all of the children. It's that Mom and Dad aren't allowing Christ to work fully in their lives to raise their children. We know that God will provide everything we need. What we do with His provision is another story and can sometimes be a mirror of whether or not we're following Him. This might be why some huge families do it so well and some... some just don't. (And on the same train of thought, there are some families with an only child who aren't doing so great with just one!)
Of course, I don't have all the answers, and this probably doesn't make much sense. Hey, I'm the one who started the thread because I'm still trying to figure out how many children we should have, so I REALLY don't have the answers. I think these are all good things to think about, and as I'm thinking through what you mentioned especially, I'm more convicted than ever that if God wants to bless us with more children, He will -- if we are available and obedient -- bless us with the resources and ability to raise them into godly little ladies. (Do you like how I just assume that we're going to have a whole house full of girls? )
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 7:56:57 PM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11750
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quote:
Still, though. I know I'll get some opposition to this, but I DO question the wisdom of families who continue to have more and more children when they can't take care of the ones they currently have -- financially, spiritually, emotionally, etc.
I think that is a very ligitimate thing to look at...whether that is one child or ten children. More importantly I think it's also a mentality of whether you are truly letting God care for your needs, or if you have the "give me give me give me" mentality and want the government to take care of your needs. People can be over their limit with one or two kids and stuck in that gov't helping mode....or they can be there with more kids. I don't think that has to do with QF in particular though....I think that's totally different.
I think the difference between someone who is just having kids for the gov't to keep giving them stuff (which I have known people like that!!), and the person who truly has a QF mindset, is the deep down spiritual nature of why they do what they do. Their own motivation behind everything. Is it a selfish motivation, or are they willing to say "God IS in control and WILL let us know when we are done"....or are they just saying "give me give me give me" to the gov't. agencies so they can milk it for all it's worth. I don't think the latter is the true QF mindset...it's one of "selfish" wants and desires instead of "God" wants and desires. I think when you truly give to God what is His in the first place, and you keep your mind of Him and His desires for your family, then things like job loss or the economy getting bad or gas prices going up are not really at the top of your list of worries....God will provide....in HIS timing, which isn't always when we think it should be. I think the true QF mindset (not just talking about the number of kids) is when you grasp that concept that no matter what God leads you into, He WILL lead you through. Someone I know said it like this once.....you can live the good will of God...you can live the acceptable will of God...or you can live the perfect will of God....it's your choice. All are living God's will, but how much will you risk to go to the next level.
_____________________________
Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, and Jack
Baby Boy due June 25, 2008
"God has a plan for your life...and so does everybody else." ~said by Doinkdom
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 8:07:30 PM
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justjennhere
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Well said!
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 9:13:30 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2593
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quote:
-- financially, spiritually, emotionally, etc. I don't know that the problem is having more children, though, but rather might be a spiritual problem, whether it be in the form of bad stewardship with God's resources, Mom and Dad not being right spiritually and not allowing God to work through them to raise their children, etc. Does that make sense? The problem is not all of the children. It's that Mom and Dad aren't allowing Christ to work fully in their lives to raise their children. We know that God will provide everything we need. What we do with His provision is another story and can sometimes be a mirror of whether or not we're following Him. This might be why some huge families do it so well and some... some just don't. (And on the same train of thought, there are some families with an only child who aren't doing so great with just one!)
Makes sense to me, actually.
I also think we need to differentiate between the world and the church. The world is going to mess up no matter how well (or how poorly) childbearing is regulated. In the body of Christ though, we are not limited to our human resources or abilities, so we don't have to *stay* in our non-coping mode.
And we have to realize that the world's wisdom is not God's. The vast majority of people would consider us downright dumb to have had three children in the first 5 years of marriage. Especially considering our finances, my emotional state at the beginning, our cross-cultural issues, and so on.
But God knows better. And I'm glad he does. 
_____________________________
"Children are durable and don’t necessarily wilt under adversity, just as our children don’t necessarily thrive under luxury and comfort." Garrison Keillor
Shameless Self Promotion
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 10:22:31 PM
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lexie
Posts: 2213
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From: Toronto
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quote:
They ganged up on dh and told him all the terrible things about raising children and how miserable he will be when ours get bigger, and how much money he'll be shelling out for "necessities" (like 2 sports each).
Maggie, I know this is from a few pages ago, but I'm curious, is your husband from a large family? We get comments about the number of children we want and it always seems silly considering Dh is one of 8 (10 technically, but raised with only 7 others). Large families are such the norm to him.
We find a lot of people open their mouths and say bad things about large families, and then we really enjoy telling them how many sibings Dh has.
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 10:37:15 PM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Yes, thanks for that great post, Sarah, and I agree with all that you said. I also wasn't thinking about the financial aspect, but that is very important too.
I just see so many parents who seem overwhelmed by parenting. Their kids are completely undisciplined and out of control...Yet they just keep adding to the family without first getting help to straighten out and properly parent the ones they have.
I just want to add that I wasn't even thinking of the QF folks in my OP, I just used "continue to add more to the quiver" as an expression.
yeah I knew what you meant....at least I thought that's what you meant....just wasn't putting it in the right words. I understand completely!!
we get comments all the time about our family choices, mostly from hubby's family. I mostly vent about it to my mom...but she constantly reminds me of one thing....I can't expect them (who are not saved) to act or understand Christian beliefs or to understand a dependence on a God they don't know, understand, or have a relationship with. They only see things in the physical...and in the physical we have never made much money. However they are starting to see that God can still work miracles in the physical (and I pray that one day that will draw them to His saving power). On the financial front they have for years complained about us not making much...when his parents got married they never had to go through figuring out which bills had to be paid out of which pay check. They had all sorts of financial things to fall back on from a very wealthy family so if something was getting tight, they always had more then enough for the necessities. We have not had that luxury...and probably won't because the military isn't exactly known for paying a lot, yet we know this is where God has us right now. However, through all of the financial ups and downs of our years in dealing with his pay, we are out of debt except for the house that we are now buying (just signed for it last year). His parents never thought they would ever see us buy a house...but God has allowed us to do that because we have been faithful in the small things, and it has led to bigger things. We outright own our vehicle (another miracle God provided)...we do not have credit card debt (anyone without that in this day and age can claim a miracle there!!!). Our bills get paid and we have food on our table every day...all without us having to use gov't assistance programs. (I don't have a problem with them in general, but I do if you abuse them...not just use them). Anyway....all that to say that in time all that is showing his parents that there IS a higher source then the all mighty dollar...that our beliefs may be weird to them, but overall we are doing just fine!!!
_____________________________
Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, and Jack
Baby Boy due June 25, 2008
"God has a plan for your life...and so does everybody else." ~said by Doinkdom
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RE: How many children? - 3/26/2008 10:48:56 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 4091
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
My hubby has a theory about your observations regarding people's parenting. He calls sees it as people just jumping into parenting blindly. People just get married and think, "Oh, well we're supposed to have kids now so lets do that" before they've even thought about or discussed discipline and home life and structure as a couple. Of course many parents start out at that point, even many Christians, and come through it made stronger by the Holy Spirit, through their petitions for help and guidance. But sadly, many do not and it's like the blind leading the blind...children are allowed all the power in the family dynamic with no boundaries nor discipline nor really love...since even our Heavenly Father disciplines us, His children, so that we'll grow and learn...
I think your husband is spot on and thanks for your other insights. I highly agree with what you've said here. It is all, sadly, so true.
I'm sorry too...sometimes I get in these really sensitive moods and get my feelings hurt by things I wouldn't normally even notice!
I love all y'all! 
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 6:34:27 AM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 1664
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Just north of nowhere
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
My hubby has a theory about your observations regarding people's parenting. He calls sees it as people just jumping into parenting blindly. People just get married and think, "Oh, well we're supposed to have kids now so lets do that" before they've even thought about or discussed discipline and home life and structure as a couple. Of course many parents start out at that point, even many Christians, and come through it made stronger by the Holy Spirit, through their petitions for help and guidance. But sadly, many do not and it's like the blind leading the blind...children are allowed all the power in the family dynamic with no boundaries nor discipline nor really love...since even our Heavenly Father disciplines us, His children, so that we'll grow and learn...
Kim, your man makes a great point. I know from experience. This is exactly what we did. My husband and I were not saved when we married, or when *we* decided it was time for littles. We weren't saved until our second was an infant. And since being saved doesn't automatically equal wisdom  , we have had to spend the last 3 years learning how to be christian parents, and discussing things that should have been talked about before children were even in the picture. And since time doesn't stop , our kids keep growing, while we are still trying to learn how to train them up in the ways of the Lord. The end result has been several backsteps....but we're getting there!
To add to that, we won't deny blessings God wants to send us because we haven't gotten solid footing yet. This is were our trust comes in. We trust that God gave us our children in his time. He gave them to us before we knew Him for a reason, and He has been providing wonderfully in the way of mentorship, grace and patience. He teaches us more and more every day about how to raise up these littles for Him. So if He chooses to send another, we know that the grace, patience and wisdom we need will come along too.
Sandy
_____________________________
The Daily Poop
My headcovering group
DustySgt
<---Half my  is in Iraq
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 8:52:25 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 4091
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
My hubby has a theory about your observations regarding people's parenting. He calls sees it as people just jumping into parenting blindly. People just get married and think, "Oh, well we're supposed to have kids now so lets do that" before they've even thought about or discussed discipline and home life and structure as a couple. Of course many parents start out at that point, even many Christians, and come through it made stronger by the Holy Spirit, through their petitions for help and guidance. But sadly, many do not and it's like the blind leading the blind...children are allowed all the power in the family dynamic with no boundaries nor discipline nor really love...since even our Heavenly Father disciplines us, His children, so that we'll grow and learn...
Kim, your man makes a great point. I know from experience. This is exactly what we did. My husband and I were not saved when we married, or when *we* decided it was time for littles. We weren't saved until our second was an infant. And since being saved doesn't automatically equal wisdom , we have had to spend the last 3 years learning how to be christian parents, and discussing things that should have been talked about before children were even in the picture. And since time doesn't stop , our kids keep growing, while we are still trying to learn how to train them up in the ways of the Lord. The end result has been several backsteps....but we're getting there!
To add to that, we won't deny blessings God wants to send us because we haven't gotten solid footing yet. This is were our trust comes in. We trust that God gave us our children in his time. He gave them to us before we knew Him for a reason, and He has been providing wonderfully in the way of mentorship, grace and patience. He teaches us more and more every day about how to raise up these littles for Him. So if He chooses to send another, we know that the grace, patience and wisdom we need will come along too.
Sandy
Again, I wasn't speaking about parents who started off weak but have taken steps to be better parents and are progressively growing stronger and smarter.
I am speaking of parents who are on their 4th, 5th, or 6th child and are still at a complete loss as to how to parent their children properly. As a result, their homes are in chaos and the kids they have are undisciplined, unruly, and out of control and the parents still don't have a clue about how to change that. Everyone in households like this are suffering...parents and children alike.
My question was, is it morally right under circumstances like those to continue to have more children?
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 8:59:52 AM
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clag4christ
Posts: 2709
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: We just moved to the big state of Texas!
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quote:
My question was, is it morally right under circumstances like those to continue to have more children?
Well...having bad parents who don't discipline doesn't mean that those children will truly be any worse off as adults. This is coming from someone who's parents just had two children and were atrocious disciplinarians...Both my sister and I turned out fine. It is more work for me to me consistent and help show my children the way but that doesn't mean that my parents shouldn't have had my sister (I'm the first born), though they hadn't a clue what they were doing as parents. I am also different from my parents in that I'm saved and they are not...so I have the extra help of the Lord in all that I purpose to do for His glory, parenting being one of those things.
The thing for me is I find more morally wrong with ending/preventing/stopping human life than I do with poor discipline...
_____________________________
Stop vegetable genocide! Have a burger!
<-----Sweet Jael
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 9:30:27 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2690
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
My hubby has a theory about your observations regarding people's parenting. He calls sees it as people just jumping into parenting blindly. People just get married and think, "Oh, well we're supposed to have kids now so lets do that" before they've even thought about or discussed discipline and home life and structure as a couple. Of course many parents start out at that point, even many Christians, and come through it made stronger by the Holy Spirit, through their petitions for help and guidance. But sadly, many do not and it's like the blind leading the blind...children are allowed all the power in the family dynamic with no boundaries nor discipline nor really love...since even our Heavenly Father disciplines us, His children, so that we'll grow and learn...
Kim, your man makes a great point. I know from experience. This is exactly what we did. My husband and I were not saved when we married, or when *we* decided it was time for littles. We weren't saved until our second was an infant. And since being saved doesn't automatically equal wisdom , we have had to spend the last 3 years learning how to be christian parents, and discussing things that should have been talked about before children were even in the picture. And since time doesn't stop , our kids keep growing, while we are still trying to learn how to train them up in the ways of the Lord. The end result has been several backsteps....but we're getting there!
To add to that, we won't deny blessings God wants to send us because we haven't gotten solid footing yet. This is were our trust comes in. We trust that God gave us our children in his time. He gave them to us before we knew Him for a reason, and He has been providing wonderfully in the way of mentorship, grace and patience. He teaches us more and more every day about how to raise up these littles for Him. So if He chooses to send another, we know that the grace, patience and wisdom we need will come along too.
Sandy
Again, I wasn't speaking about parents who started off weak but have taken steps to be better parents and are progressively growing stronger and smarter.
I am speaking of parents who are on their 4th, 5th, or 6th child and are still at a complete loss as to how to parent their children properly. As a result, their homes are in chaos and the kids they have are undisciplined, unruly, and out of control and the parents still don't have a clue about how to change that. Everyone in households like this are suffering...parents and children alike.
My question was, is it morally right under circumstances like those to continue to have more children?
You didn't say in the first post if you were asking about any couples who have children or specifically about couples who are married. The distinction makes a difference in how the question is answered.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 9:31:55 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 4091
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
The thing for me is I find more morally wrong with ending/preventing/stopping human life than I do with poor discipline...
And I highly agree with that.
I'm just not sure there is an answer to my question because people will do whatever it is that they desire to do...and in the end, it's their choice, not mine...and they, not me, have to live with the resulting outcome of that choice.
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 9:38:55 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2690
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
The thing for me is I find more morally wrong with ending/preventing/stopping human life than I do with poor discipline...
And I highly agree with that.
I'm just not sure there is an answer to my question because people will do whatever it is that they desire to do...and in the end, it's their choice, not mine...and they, not me, have to live with the resulting outcome of that choice.
For someone who is not married I believe there is a choice -- abstinence. That is not an option in most marriages. Short of someone having a hystorectomy or abstaining from sex, there is no guarantee that birth control (even "permanent" types of birth control, i.e., tying tubes, vasectomy) will prevent pregnancy. So I'm not convinced that having more children or not is a moral question. Perhaps a married couple actively trying to have more children in a chaotic situation might be immoral, but there are too many married people who do not actively try and a significant number who try to prevent them, and they still have children.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 10:08:55 AM
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lexie
Posts: 2213
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:
I'm just not sure there is an answer to my question because people will do whatever it is that they desire to do...and in the end, it's their choice, not mine...and they, not me, have to live with the resulting outcome of that choice
I know someone who has one child outside of marriage, and is now in a relationship that seems to be heading towards marriage. She wants more kids, but watching how she has raised the first child, I hope that she will wait and work on herself before she has another child. Sure some of the problems with the first child may stem from her raising the child on her own, but the way she talks to her child and the way she has put herself before her child makes me hope that she grows up before she has more children.
I understand what you're thinking Kat. I know another family who has a few kids and were looking to add to the family through adoption or fostering. But both parents work an extreme amount of hours and are rarely around for their children (the children are raising themselves). They seem to think because they already have a few kids they will have no problem adopting, but I honestly can't see them getting past the homestudy.
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 10:30:00 AM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11750
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Between Hither and Yon
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quote:
My question was, is it morally right under circumstances like those to continue to have more children?
there is no basis for morality without Christ.
my parents got razzed for years by my mom's parents about how "sheltered" they were raising us three kids and how horrible it was for them to require us to go to church, go to a private school, etc. My two cousins were supposedly raised to be "Christians", but without a basis for morality that my parents did with us. A few years ago my grandmother finally saw the difference, and appologized to my mom because of all she put her through for so many years. My brothers and I are all married, we all waited to have sex until we were married, we are all faithfully and lovingly in our marriages (me the longest....this summer will be ten years). There are six grandkids out of all of us (seventh due in a few months)...and ALL of those kids have the same two parents. My two cousins are a totally different story...between the two of them there has been seven kids with six different father's (would have been more if it weren't for surgery I am sure)...two adopted out to another loving couple (who keeps in contact with us), one adopted out to my cousin's dad, and two their dad's have custody of. Four broken live in "fiance" relationships that never went down the isle. three paternity suits in court to determine what shouldn't have to be that hard to determine if you are following God's ways. I could go on, but I won't. It's a very bad situation for each of them...and IMO the whole deep down point was that they had morality pushed without Christ, therefore didn't have a basis for that morality, saw no point in it, and it didn't dominate the decisions they made in their lives.
< Message edited by peculiar_lady2 -- 3/27/2008 10:36:32 AM >
_____________________________
Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, and Jack
Baby Boy due June 25, 2008
"God has a plan for your life...and so does everybody else." ~said by Doinkdom
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RE: How many children? - 3/27/2008 12:39:22 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 4091
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
quote:
I'm just not sure there is an answer to my question because people will do whatever it is that they desire to do...and in the end, it's their choice, not mine...and they, not me, have to live with the resulting outcome of that choice
I know someone who has one child outside of marriage, and is now in a relationship that seems to be heading towards marriage. She wants more kids, but watching how she has raised the first child, I hope that she will wait and work on herself before she has another child. Sure some of the problems with the first child may stem from her raising the child on her own, but the way she talks to her child and the way she has put herself before her child makes me hope that she grows up before she has more children.
I understand what you're thinking Kat. I know another family who has a few kids and were looking to add to the family through adoption or fostering. But both parents work an extreme amount of hours and are rarely around for their children (the children are raising themselves). They seem to think because they already have a few kids they will have no problem adopting, but I honestly can't see them getting past the homestudy.
Yes, Lexie, and that opens up a whole other can of worms, doesn't it? Parents who keep having kids but turn over their care to others because they cannot afford to have them unless they work day and night outside the home. KOO-KOO! 
Bzirk...I was thinking more of married parents in my original question.
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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