God able to prevent evil? (Full Version)

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tony.nz -> God able to prevent evil? (3/19/2008 9:08:50 PM)

I have just had a question from my 16 yr old son, although I am not without answers I am tired at the moment from a pretty heavy discussion with a new-age oriented neighbour. Still alive! Anyway, my brain needs a rest and I thought some of you people could provide some ideas as to how to approach this.

Q Is God willing but not able to prevent evil? Then, he is not all-powerful. Is he able to but not willing? If so, he is malevolent. If he is not able or willing to do so, then why call Him God?



mvic -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (3/19/2008 10:02:57 PM)

God is all-powerful and able to prevent evil. However, there are times when he allows evil to happen. We cannot understand this of course because, being human, we see this from a human perspective and we say "If He is powerful and loving then why did He let this happen?"

Perhaps it is not our role to try to understand His actions and reasonings. Perhaps our role in the greater scheme of things is to trust Him without questioning and to believe that He allows evil to happen for a purpose. We should also remember that when evil happens - e.g. a tragedy or disaster - He is still in control. And we should thank Him for that. It may sound odd to say "thank Him" when a disaster has just happened. We are NOT thanking Him for the disaster of course. We are thanking Him for being in control of the situation He has led us into; we are thanking Him that He will lead us through it and that good will eventually result from the situation.

I know it is difficult to understand this concept and many, including me have struggled with it. But then - that's what they call Faith.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (3/20/2008 1:14:33 AM)

Proverbs 16
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Genesis 3
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Romans 9
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I would never pretend to have a perfect answer to this. Perhaps one who sees evil is driven to seek God for help. Can we recognize God's power if we don't see His final triumph over evil? If there were no illness, could Jesus have healed the sick? If there were no death, could He have raised Lazarus from the dead? If we needed no comfort, could God comfort us? If man had never sinned, would he ever experience forgiveness? If we needed no Savior, God would not have sent His Son.


Isaiah 55
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Psalm 92
1IT IS A GOOD THING TO GIVE THANKS UNTO THE LORD, AND TO SING PRAISES UNTO THY NAME, O MOST HIGH:



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (3/20/2008 3:53:33 AM)

Step one: make the rather abstract word "evil" more concrete. Ask your son what he means by "evil". Not just because it makes your son think about what He is actually asking, but it will also tell you exactly what he is asking.

Step two: bring the Bible. If he thinks evil just means things that are negative, you can go several different ways. Think Genesis 3 (cursed is the ground for your sake). Think about Joel (God sends locusts and Babylon because Israel sinned). If he is thinking evil as in people acting wickedly, talk about how God gave man a choice because He is Love and Love desires to be returned (for without a choice, it is not love, but a lack of choice).

Step three: make the Bible verses concrete. Go into Joel and talk about how God used the Babylonians to judge Israel's sin, and then about how God used the nations of the world to bring down Hitler in world war 2 (because he was actively trying to exterminate the jews) and Saddaam Hussein in the current Iraq war (because Hussein was torturing his people, presiding over mass rapes, and killing the marginalized people of his county).

Step four: kick back and relax while waiting for the realization to dawn.

Adam



earthless -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (3/20/2008 7:58:55 AM)

God could eliminate a great deal of evil but he would do so only at the expense of other goods (such as human freedom). Perhaps a person suffers from severe migraine headaches. A doctor could eliminate this suffering by simply "eliminating" the person with a lethal dose of morphine.

But eradicating one evil would just create a greater evil. It is not obvious that a good person ought to eliminate evil insofar as he can - namely, when other evils come about as a result.

We have to take into account human freedom. God created human beings as self-determining agents. We have the capacity to bring about freely one state of affairs or another. Human beings have the ability to bring about great good, but this capacity also involved being able to do great harm.

One might ask, "But can't God do anything? Can't an all-powerful God make a world in which we freely do what's good all the time? Isn't that what omnipotence is all about?

No. He can't do things that are logically or morally impossible. Here are some things God cannot do:

- make 2+2=5
- change the past
- make square circles
- cease to exist (as he is necessarily self-existent)
- lie
- break his promises
- violate his moral character and holiness



timf -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (3/20/2008 9:42:41 AM)

Q Is God willing but not able to prevent evil?

God can prevent evil by not creating any being with free will that could choose evil. By creating beings that can choose, He does open the possibility of evil. God limits this by limiting the time evil is allowed and judging evil to remove its existence.

God can intervene to limit evil as He did with the flood and His consideration of the extermination of the nation of Israel;

Exodus 32:10
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

There are things of God that we will never know and many things that we cannot understand even if we knew. I suspect that Satan thought he had a good plan to get Adam and Eve to sin. He probably thought he could secure a permanent dominion over the earth. I think he did not have a clue that God Himself would come as Jesus and pay the whole price for the sin of the world to offer redemption to man.

God is able to completely and instantly remove all evil from the world. However, if He did, who would be left alive?

At the end of creation, those that are His cannot stand on any accomplishment. We must all lower our heads in complete humility and see that our presence in heaven is only the result of His love, grace, and sacrifice. We will know for all eternity that there is no good apart from God.



figmentPez -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (3/20/2008 11:49:47 PM)

There is a very good parable on this subject.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' 29But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Christians should be very glad that that God didn't just end evil as soon as it appeared, because we are His wheat, and we need time to grow. Bear in mind that each and every human has been evil and done evil at some point. Without time for God's seed to grow, we would all be found without faith and condemned as evil. However, God's grace allows us time to have faith and be saved.



SnapDraggin -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (4/7/2008 5:03:06 AM)

hi tony.nz,

I believe what you are asking, is called "the Epicurean paradox" or "the riddle of Epicurus", stated by the philosopher Epicurus (341 BC, Samos - 270 BC, Athens).

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Normal question arose throughout all the ages regarding Good vs Evil..

- Why did God create Satan if He could foretell Satan would rebel?
- Why did God create the tree of knowledge of good an evil?
- Why did God subject the whole creation in vanity? (Romans 8)
- Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Ecc 1:13 "...And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith..."

Ecc 1:13 "...I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it..."

Regards
Snappy



Gray_Wanderer -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (4/7/2008 8:48:38 AM)

The Epicurean paradox seems to be the issue that is at the core of this.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Questioning God's ability. This could be taken in binary (either yes he is able completely or no he is unable at all). Though we could consider different levels of power, this then brings into question the definition or characteristics of God, and one of his characteristics is omnipotence - saying that God is able to stop some evil but not all. If God is not omnipotent, is he really God?

Is he able, but not willing?
Questioning God's motives. If God is capable of stopping or staunching evil, why does he not do so? Is god complicit to allow evil to eat away at the world? If he is, then it cannot be denied that at some level God is malevolent - there is evil not just in action, but in allowance. This is part of the reason why communities cannot wash their hands of involvement of individual members. In this assumption, God is present (characteristics: omnipresence) and able (omnipotent).

Is he both able and willing?
Assuming that God is both able and willing to stop evil. However, if this were true, then evil should not be able to exist. If he is both fully able (omnipotent) and fully willing, then evil should not exist - however, evil does exist and therefore he cannot be both fully willing and able. It could stop here, but since I mentioned above that there can be degrees, then there are two questions: is he not fully able or not fully willing? Again, saying that he is not fully able contradicts his characteristic of omnipotence. If he is not fully willing, would this not necessarily then mean that he is at least to some degree malevolent?

Is he neither able nor willing?
If God is neither able nor willing, what makes him any more than a being like us who also do not have unlimited power or will. Since the consensus is that there is a God, this assumption seems to be stricken.

These thoughts are probably incompletely explored/explained, please feel free to speculate or request clarification. However, they cover the bases of the issue and all of the possible assumptions. One of the assumptions that I think we can make, based on the definition of God, is the consensus that he is omnipotent. Therefore, he must have the power. This narrows the question to whether or not he is willing. Unless somebody wants to argue that evil doesn't exist, I only see one possibility: God is malevolent.



cognitivemagic -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (4/18/2008 6:10:53 PM)

quote:

Step one: make the rather abstract word "evil" more concrete

original response by FurGodWurLivin


This is an excellent point. These sorts of arguments usually begin with an extremely vague notion of the concept of "evil", which implies that all parties understand, at least intuitively, what this word means.

For instance, is "evil" a physical object, like a chair or a table? Is it a non-physical object, like a spirit or logical laws? Is it a non-entity that is merely defined and posited by rational agents onto certain physical objects, like the word "apple" is imposed upon a certain red fruit that grow on a certain type of tree; or like when the name "Greg" is imposed on a particular human person?

Why is this all important for us? Because unless we understand what it is we are talking about first, then it's impossible to discourse rationally on the subject.



Ezra -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (4/18/2008 11:46:07 PM)

quote:

One of the assumptions that I think we can make, based on the definition of God, is the consensus that he is omnipotent. Therefore, he must have the power. This narrows the question to whether or not he is willing. Unless somebody wants to argue that evil doesn't exist, I only see one possibility: God is malevolent.


Really? And how does one take this giganctic leap of unbelief?



Ezra -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (4/18/2008 11:51:50 PM)

Man sees evil as sometime that is interminable. God sees evil as a passing phenomenon, since in about 6 days (six millenia) evil may be utterly eradicated from this earth.

God permitted evil to enter into the world so that He might display the glories of His grace. Without sin there would be no Savior and without salvation there could be no real experience of the infinite grace of God.

As to preventing evil, you and I have no idea about the daily activity of God through the holy angels in preventing evil on every side. If God were not preventing evil daily this world would be a literal Hell.



URForgiven -> RE: God able to prevent evil? (4/19/2008 12:29:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray_Wanderer

The Epicurean paradox seems to be the issue that is at the core of this.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Questioning God's ability. This could be taken in binary (either yes he is able completely or no he is unable at all). Though we could consider different levels of power, this then brings into question the definition or characteristics of God, and one of his characteristics is omnipotence - saying that God is able to stop some evil but not all. If God is not omnipotent, is he really God?

Is he able, but not willing?
Questioning God's motives. If God is capable of stopping or staunching evil, why does he not do so? Is god complicit to allow evil to eat away at the world? If he is, then it cannot be denied that at some level God is malevolent - there is evil not just in action, but in allowance. This is part of the reason why communities cannot wash their hands of involvement of individual members. In this assumption, God is present (characteristics: omnipresence) and able (omnipotent).

Is he both able and willing?
Assuming that God is both able and willing to stop evil. However, if this were true, then evil should not be able to exist. If he is both fully able (omnipotent) and fully willing, then evil should not exist - however, evil does exist and therefore he cannot be both fully willing and able. It could stop here, but since I mentioned above that there can be degrees, then there are two questions: is he not fully able or not fully willing? Again, saying that he is not fully able contradicts his characteristic of omnipotence. If he is not fully willing, would this not necessarily then mean that he is at least to some degree malevolent?

Is he neither able nor willing?
If God is neither able nor willing, what makes him any more than a being like us who also do not have unlimited power or will. Since the consensus is that there is a God, this assumption seems to be stricken.

These thoughts are probably incompletely explored/explained, please feel free to speculate or request clarification. However, they cover the bases of the issue and all of the possible assumptions. One of the assumptions that I think we can make, based on the definition of God, is the consensus that he is omnipotent. Therefore, he must have the power. This narrows the question to whether or not he is willing. Unless somebody wants to argue that evil doesn't exist, I only see one possibility: God is malevolent.


God is willing and God is able, He is also patient.

"With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8,9

It is funny because this is the question unbelievers always ask to discredit belief in God. It is funny because He is waiting for them, they are the reason God has not yet destroyed evil.



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