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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 3/28/2008 6:51:52 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
The verse refers to the sacrament of confession and the power transmitted through the apostles to forgive sins.
Please. elaberate. What consitutes the "the sacrament of confession" and how does this passage apply to it.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 3/28/2008 7:03:11 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
figmentPez: "You(bluethread) don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught."
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 3/30/2008 8:59:02 PM
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kwahr
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Here's some information about the Catholic sacrament of confession/absolution and how this verse is at least part of the proof for it:
quote:
That there is in the Church power to absolve sins committed after baptism the Council of Trent thus declares: "But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples saying, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.' By which action so signal, and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles, and to their lawful successors for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after baptism" (Sess. XIV, i). Nor is there lacking in divine revelation proof of such power; the classical texts are those found in Matthew 16:19; 18:18, and in John 20:21-23. To Peter are given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Sin is the great obstacle to entrance into the kingdom, and over sin Peter is supreme. To Peter and to all the Apostles is given the power to bind and to loose, and this again implies supreme power both legislative and judicial: power to forgive sins, power to free from sin's penalties. This interpretation becomes more clear in studying the rabbinical literature, especially of Our Lord's time, in which the phrase to bind and to loose was in common use. (Lightfoot, Horæ Hebraicæ Buxtorf, Lexicon Chald.; Knabenbauer, Commentary on Matthew, II, 66; particularly Maas, St. Matthew, 183, 184.) The granting of the power to absolve is put with unmistakable clearness in St. John's Gospel: "He breathed upon them and said, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins ye shall forgive they are forgiven them; and whose sins ye shall retain, they are retained'" (20:22-23). It were foolish to assert that the power here granted by Christ was simply a power to announce the Gospel (Council of Trent, Sess. XIX, Can. iii), and quite as unwise to contend that here is contained no power other than the power to remit sin in the Sacrament of Baptism (Ibid., Sess. XIV); for the very context is against such an interpretation, and the words of the text imply a strictly judicial act, while the power to retain sins becomes simply incomprehensible when applied to baptism alone, and not to an action involving discretionary judgment.
_____________________________
Peace be with you,
"One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic"
Nicene Creed
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 3/30/2008 9:29:57 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 3/31/2008 8:48:10 AM
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heavensmailman
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Who is the only one that has the power to forgive sin?
John-14:6 Jesus said: " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John-8:36 Jesus said: " So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."
Who gave him this power to forgive us our sins?
Acts-10:42 Luke writes: " He ( Jesus) commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he ( Jesus) is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and dead."
Acts-17:31 Luke writes: " For he ( God our Father) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man ( Jesus) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
Did Jesus, or does Jesus give the power to forgive sin to anyone else?
John-15:4 Jesus said: " Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."
John-8:31 Jesus said: " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth , and the truth will set you free."
2nd John:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
John-20:21 Again Jesus said, " Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, " Receive the Holy Spirit."
John-14:23 Jesus replied: " If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."
Only Jesus can forgive sin! It was, and is the Spirit of Jesus, living within a person who forgives sin! We can and must forgive others who hurt us, but we can not forgive them their sin. When Jesus asks God our Father to forgive anyone their sin, the Father will. Jesus is his Son, He died to save us from our sins.
Luke-23:34 jesus said," Fathe, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Jesus Is the only way to be with our Father, only by Jesus forgiving us can we be forgiven!
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/3/2008 2:21:16 PM
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Bluethread
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Based on post#30 I would conclude that this verse is refering to the protection and imparting of the message of salvation and not salvation itself.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
figmentPez: "You(bluethread) don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught."
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/4/2008 12:01:31 AM
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.....
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Hello in the faith once for all entrusted to the saints of The Most High! For Jesus taught the parable of the shrewd manager. The manager was going to be removed from handling the accounts talents that The Master had entrusted to him as his work because of his sin. The manager, then, proceeded to act shrewdly and makes their debts less through forgiving them part of their debt that owed The Master. Because he did this, The Master commended him for actingly shrewdly.
Likewise, if one does not handle what God has entrusted to them in a productive manner; one will be removed and thrown outside where there is weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
The Master commended the unfaithful manager for looking out for himself by looking out for others. For if we forgive other's sins, and make their accounts less; then we also will be forgiven in accordance with The Lord's teaching on prayer.
As to money Christ said: I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. For the one who is trustworthy with little, is trustworthy with much.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
What do you think the verse I emboldened means?
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
< Message edited by .prophetic. -- 4/4/2008 12:12:54 AM >
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/5/2008 12:08:08 PM
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heavensmailman
Posts: 97
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Based on post#30 I would conclude that this verse is refering to the protection and imparting of the message of salvation and not salvation itself.
This is how I understand this verse,
Forgiveness comes from God our Father, through Jesus Christ his Son.
Salvalation comes from God our Father, through Jesus only.
We are only saved when we repent, ask for forgiveness of our sins, and Jesus sets us free.
The disciples only carried the message of salvation, but it was the Spirit of Jesus living within them, that did or did not foregive men their sins.
John-15:4 Jesus makes it very clear that the disciples could not bear fruit without him. They could preach the message of salvation, but only Jesus could save.
The Spirit of Jesus, will or will not foregive all people, of all time their sins.
Anyone can preach the message of salvation, but God our Father only hears us, when we ask for anything through and or in the name of his Son, Jesus.
The message of salvation can not save or foregive anyone.
Only Jesus can foregive our sins and save us, and set us free .
Peace
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/9/2008 12:44:34 AM
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cwb
Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
CherishedbyGod:
In short, in these verses it appears Yeshua is telling the disciples (and us) that we are the gate keepers. It is our responsibility to communicate the Gospel correctly, because it is the only way into the Kingom of Adonai. He has the right to require this because he has spent the time teaching us. We owe Him. Also, even though He will not be here physically to help us, He will leave His Spirit to help us live up to this obligation.
Do you understand?
We're the gate keepers? Hmmm... Whatcha' mean by that? Jesus is the [door] gate; do we actually keep the door? Jn 10 v2, 7, 9, ...
We owe Him? Is 'owe' a good word?
He WILL leave His Spirit? That's not at all a good word. He already did left His Spirit.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/9/2008 12:59:08 AM
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cwb
Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe Yeshua is making a play on words here. In Hebrew the word Ruach (Ghost or Spirit) can also be interpreted as breath.
A little bothersome there, bluethread...
John was not written in Hebrew; it was written in Greek. That includes the word breathed, which ain't rauch; it's emphusao, which can mean breath, in an instrumental sense - upon which to convey the Holy Spirit.
Do you have a doctrine, or denomination? You don't have to answer if you don't want...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/9/2008 11:04:15 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
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quote:
[John 20:23 Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whoesoever sins ye retain, they are retained./quote]
Those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiveness is granted to them, and those whose sins you hold back from forgiveness, they will continue to be in sin.
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/9/2008 2:01:58 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 589
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
CherishedbyGod:
In short, in these verses it appears Yeshua is telling the disciples (and us) that we are the gate keepers. It is our responsibility to communicate the Gospel correctly, because it is the only way into the Kingom of Adonai. He has the right to require this because he has spent the time teaching us. We owe Him. Also, even though He will not be here physically to help us, He will leave His Spirit to help us live up to this obligation.
Do you understand?
We're the gate keepers? Hmmm... Whatcha' mean by that? Jesus is the [door] gate; do we actually keep the door? Jn 10 v2, 7, 9, ...
We owe Him? Is 'owe' a good word?
He WILL leave His Spirit? That's not at all a good word. He already did left His Spirit.
Doormen might be a better word, if you will excuse the masculine tense. We point toward the door.
I believe "owe" is entirely correct. Our Rabbi has imparted His wisdom to us and we have an obligation to impart that wisdom to others.
True, the word "will" is not accurate in the absolute sense. Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) has always be available. I was just using the tense in the passage. He was leaving but the Ruach(Spirit) would remain and be sent to those who seek the truth.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
figmentPez: "You(bluethread) don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught."
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/9/2008 2:05:29 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 589
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe Yeshua is making a play on words here. In Hebrew the word Ruach (Ghost or Spirit) can also be interpreted as breath.
A little bothersome there, bluethread...
John was not written in Hebrew; it was written in Greek. That includes the word breathed, which ain't rauch; it's emphusao, which can mean breath, in an instrumental sense - upon which to convey the Holy Spirit.
Do you have a doctrine, or denomination? You don't have to answer if you don't want...
The jury is still out on which language Yochanan(John) wrote. The manuscripts we have available at this time are in greek, as are many of the manuscripts for the Tanach.
I do derive certain doctrines from the Scriptures, but I prefer to not let those doctrines define me. Therefore, I do not recognize denominations. I travel in the world of actions and ideas. If some choose to label themselves and others that is up to them. I prefer to focus more on the message than the messenger.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/9/2008 2:16:21 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
figmentPez: "You(bluethread) don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught."
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/9/2008 5:58:30 PM
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cwb
Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
CherishedbyGod:
In short, in these verses it appears Yeshua is telling the disciples (and us) that we are the gate keepers. It is our responsibility to communicate the Gospel correctly, because it is the only way into the Kingom of Adonai. He has the right to require this because he has spent the time teaching us. We owe Him. Also, even though He will not be here physically to help us, He will leave His Spirit to help us live up to this obligation.
Do you understand?
We're the gate keepers? Hmmm... Whatcha' mean by that? Jesus is the [door] gate; do we actually keep the door? Jn 10 v2, 7, 9, ...
We owe Him? Is 'owe' a good word?
He WILL leave His Spirit? That's not at all a good word. He already did left His Spirit.
Doormen might be a better word, if you will excuse the masculine tense. We point toward the door.
I believe "owe" is entirely correct. Our Rabbi has imparted His wisdom to us and we have an obligation to impart that wisdom to others.
True, the word "will" is not accurate in the absolute sense. Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) has always be available. I was just using the tense in the passage. He was leaving but the Ruach(Spirit) would remain and be sent to those who seek the truth.
Good answers... except in my opinion for use of the word 'owe'.
Believers are 'one' with Christ. Carnally/fleshly, etc.; same as a spouse. The two are one flesh. Believers are one with Jesus Jn 17.
Can one 'owe' his spouse? Or Jesus? In ANY manner?
You are Jewish? Messianic? Orthodox? Chassidic? Again, you don't have to answer if you don't want.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 4/10/2008 1:42:06 PM
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Bluethread
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Yes, I do believe we are indebted to our spouses. They may cut us slack as Yeshua does, but that does not mean we should not acknowledge the debt we owe our spouses. The idea that marrage is a partnership of equals comes from our unisex secular humanist society. We need to consider the other as better than ourselves. Remember we are not Adonai, Yeshua is. This is not to say that women are to put their husbands in the place Adonai. My point is that the marrage analogy is about Adonai's social order not equality.
I read literature and talk regularly with people who call themselves messianic and I often inquire regarding how the orthodox, chassidics and karites veiw a subject, but I am also talking with you. So, am I defined by those with whom I speak? I am not genetically jewish, but to clarify things for people I have said that I can be properly called jewish in the same way a timid man can be call sheepish. He is not a sheep, but he acts like one.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
figmentPez: "You(bluethread) don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught."
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 5/7/2008 11:54:02 PM
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pmilst
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
My NIV Study Bible claims this is a more literal translation: "Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven and those whose sins you do not forgive have not yet been forgiven". The study note suggests that those who preach the Gospel of forgiveness (the 11 disciples soon to be Apostles) are, in effect, forgiving or not forgiving sins, contingent on whether the hearers of that Gospel accept or reject Christ.
Interesting thought drmark, worth much consideration. Has always been
a puzzling passage. Can we somehow coordinate this to the Pharisees condemnation of Christ for forgiving sin or would Christ and Disciple similar authority open up a can of worms not worthy of discussion.
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 5/8/2008 12:19:48 AM
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pmilst
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Joined: 2/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I am going to give a whole different take on it. One I think has more historicity to it. In Matt HE says this:
Mat 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
This passage is HIM giving the apostles authority to create their own practice , and ultimately to write the NT. I believe the passage in John about retaining and remitting sins is the same authority being given them. In the previous verse He had just imparted the Holy Spirit to them, the very Spirit that was to lead them into all truth and inspire the biblical texts that some of them would write in the following years.
But do we see a range of authorities being given to the church:
1) ? remission of sins
2) giving keys to the kingdom of heaven
3) if you pray, this mountain can be removed
It seem that authority is being given, but do we grasp the significance,
or how best to use such authority. Again, this seems to open up a can
of worms that people (including myself) are reluctant to talk about.
< Message edited by pmilst -- 5/8/2008 2:10:29 AM >
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 5/8/2008 11:03:28 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 102
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
What do you think the verse I emboldened means?
John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
This is both a powerful and dangerous verse.
As Christians, we have the power to lead others to Christ or drive them further away from salvation.
An extreme example would be like this: If you are holding a criminal at gunpoint while waiting for the police, you have the power to preach the Gospel and try to persuade him to repent and follow Jesus or to shoot him and send his soul to hell.
In a more practical and common sense, even though we may not always witness for Christ or talk to someone about becoming a believer in Christ, we can easily, by ignoring or doing something offensive, drive someone away from ever accepting Christ. We may not all be evangelists as such, but we are all involved in evangelism by our words, works and witness.
If you knowingly and deliberately withhold the Gospel message from someone who shows signs of openness and interest, you are sending that soul to hell by your very actions (or lack thereof). If you do something accidentilly or deliberately to offend a non-believer or weak brother or sister in Christ, you can turn them away from God forever. Think carefully about what you say and do and how it reflects on your witness for Christ, especially in the context of this Scripture.
Even though we have this power to lead people to Christ or drive them away, we do not have the power or right to force our views or God's salvation on anyone. It is a delicate and awesome responsibility. We can only witness and pray that the Holy Spirit will open their hearts to respond.
Pray for God's wisdom and guidance as you encounter the people that you interact with everyday. Are you being a witness for Christ and leading them to Him by your words and example or are you being a hypocrite who believes Jesus is good enough for you, but you don't want them to be saved because of some ungodly grudge or offense you are holding?
May God give you guidance and wisdom as you apply the power of this verse to your life and witness.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 5/9/2008 11:57:37 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 455
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
This, I believe refers to the preaching of the Gospel. When a sinner here's the truth of the Gospel from a believer, we are making available to that person a life changing privelege to be saved and redeemed from sin. From this perspective we are remitting sin because we are the vehicle God is using to save them from sin. We are as someone put it early the gateway into the Kingdom. We have something of emmense value to offer people!!
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RE: What Does This Verse Mean - 5/9/2008 12:35:49 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2741
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
What do you think the verse I emboldened means?
John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
This is both a powerful and dangerous verse.
As Christians, we have the power to lead others to Christ or drive them further away from salvation.
An extreme example would be like this: If you are holding a criminal at gunpoint while waiting for the police, you have the power to preach the Gospel and try to persuade him to repent and follow Jesus or to shoot him and send his soul to hell.
In a more practical and common sense, even though we may not always witness for Christ or talk to someone about becoming a believer in Christ, we can easily, by ignoring or doing something offensive, drive someone away from ever accepting Christ. We may not all be evangelists as such, but we are all involved in evangelism by our words, works and witness.
If you knowingly and deliberately withhold the Gospel message from someone who shows signs of openness and interest, you are sending that soul to hell by your very actions (or lack thereof). If you do something accidentilly or deliberately to offend a non-believer or weak brother or sister in Christ, you can turn them away from God forever. Think carefully about what you say and do and how it reflects on your witness for Christ, especially in the context of this Scripture.
Even though we have this power to lead people to Christ or drive them away, we do not have the power or right to force our views or God's salvation on anyone. It is a delicate and awesome responsibility. We can only witness and pray that the Holy Spirit will open their hearts to respond.
Pray for God's wisdom and guidance as you encounter the people that you interact with everyday. Are you being a witness for Christ and leading them to Him by your words and example or are you being a hypocrite who believes Jesus is good enough for you, but you don't want them to be saved because of some ungodly grudge or offense you are holding?
May God give you guidance and wisdom as you apply the power of this verse to your life and witness.
This is one of the most powerful and needed posts I have seen on these forums the past few years.
And yet, I think you are the first I have known to share these critical truths!
The importance of the truths presented in the above post are, sadly, greatly neglected by the church.
And yet our Lord has severe warnings for those that cause others to stumble or are offended. "Woe" He says over and over again to the offender!
_____________________________
~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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). I think in this verse Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples and it may not have the same meaning for us, today, as it did for them. If there are any verses in Scripture that don't apply to us today, this might be one of them.
