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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/29/2008 8:55:09 PM
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shadowspring
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quote:
since when do only those with "adulterous hearts" fall into temptation or sin? aren't we ALL capable of falling?
I'm not sure what you are asking here? Are you asking whether anyone is capable of adultery? Or are you asking where sin originates, in the heart or in circumstantial (external) forces? Clearly sin originates within us, as the Lord and James declared:
quote:
Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
quote:
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Certainly all people are capable of sin, but that does not mean we are all equally tempted by the same things.
I do agree that if you are already experiencing temptation in your thought life, you should not be alone with the person you are sexually desiring, not even to, ahem, pray.
But that does not mean that praying with a bf/gf will entice any and every couple to sin sexually together against the Lord!
People who commit sexual sin do so in response to their personal, internal struggles with lust.
Prayer does NOT lead to fornication!
_____________________________
 "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..." -J. R. R. Tolkien
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/29/2008 9:13:16 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1108
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prayer does not lead to the temptaion the intimacy of prayer can.
my point above is, appetites can be awakened.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/29/2008 10:33:18 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1422
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
quote:
But, you are wrong about hugging and anyone that has worked in a church setting for very long knows exactly what I mean. A short hug is non-sexual. A LONG hug can, and for countless people in our churches HAS, been the beginning of an affair within the church. You can deny it from your experience. But, the reality is there.
Nope, the hug was not the cause of adulterous thoughts. Adulterous thoughts were the cause of the inappropriately long hug.
Of all people, I would expect you to understand that it is what come out of the heart that causes us to sin.
Prayer, reading the Bible together, and hugging are not sinful nor do they breed sin in our lives.
Do people with sinful hearts use these as a cover-up for their adulterous intentions? I'm sure it could happen.
But the book should be counseling folk to avoid people with adulterous hearts and actions, not avoid praying together as a couple.
Many, many righteous couples who walk before God with pure hearts can and should pray together, especially about their future together. It is just crazy to condemn prayer as a sinful thing for anyone.
I understand exactly why you feel that way. But, I look at it a little like the prudent advice my father once gave me.
"I don't drink beer because if I never drink one, I can never drink two. And, if I never drink two I can never drink more. Therefore, by never drinking one I completely avoid ever getting drunk." 
I know that sin is the root of adultery. But, avoiding temptation is part of FLEEING fornication.
Remember, the 'flesh' INCLUDES how the brain reacts to stimuli. There are some things that are hard-wired in us. And, I'm trying, the best I can, to let people know that they can be led down a path that isn't good for them by these hard-wired reactions in the way our brains process information. Did you know, for instance, that if a man wants a woman to have amorous thoughts a bit of baby powder behind the ears works as well as the most expensive cologne?
And, that is a fact!
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 3/29/2008 10:40:39 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/29/2008 10:35:15 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1422
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
prayer does not lead to the temptaion the intimacy of prayer can.
my point above is, appetites can be awakened.
This is exactly the right distinction to make!
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 4:29:15 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1364
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quote:
Did you know, for instance, that if a man wants a woman to have amorous thoughts a bit of baby powder behind the ears works as well as the most expensive cologne?
But TMeeks, you didn't tell us whose ears get the powder??? 
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 5:02:48 PM
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sunluvingirl
Posts: 1641
Joined: 6/11/2007
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I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!
_____________________________
"Oh, send out your light and your truth! Let them lead me." |
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 5:06:06 PM
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sunluvingirl
Posts: 1641
Joined: 6/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
quote:
since when do only those with "adulterous hearts" fall into temptation or sin? aren't we ALL capable of falling?
I'm not sure what you are asking here? Are you asking whether anyone is capable of adultery? Or are you asking where sin originates, in the heart or in circumstantial (external) forces? Clearly sin originates within us, as the Lord and James declared:
quote:
Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
quote:
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Certainly all people are capable of sin, but that does not mean we are all equally tempted by the same things.
I do agree that if you are already experiencing temptation in your thought life, you should not be alone with the person you are sexually desiring, not even to, ahem, pray.
But that does not mean that praying with a bf/gf will entice any and every couple to sin sexually together against the Lord!
People who commit sexual sin do so in response to their personal, internal struggles with lust.
Prayer does NOT lead to fornication!
Amen, shadowspring, you said it so much better than me!!
_____________________________
"Oh, send out your light and your truth! Let them lead me." |
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 5:59:13 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1108
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: junerose79
I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!
no one said prayer causes sin, or that God tempts.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 9:49:24 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1422
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: junerose79
I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!
Wow! You've really got our position completely wrong. Completely.
We are talking about the SITUATION and NOT "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" in a general sense.
Not all that passes for "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" is "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, that has had a lot of experience working with young people knows that emotions can rule their "prayers" in a way that an adult would not be led to do.
Any book on dating has to assume that the readers can be as young as 13 or 14! You are thinking like an adult and not going back to the time when you had the mind of a 13 year old. Our brains don't fully mature until at least 18. So, when we give advice about safe things to do while dating have to realize that the vast majority of those dating as very, very young and they do NOT have the same level of spiritual and emotional maturity as an older adult that might be dating. And, people are missing this critical fact COMPLETELY!
I taught EIGHTH GRADERS THAT DATED! And, I can absolutely guarantee you that they did NOT have the maturity to risk the intimacy of praying together alone.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 10:02:54 PM
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sunluvingirl
Posts: 1641
Joined: 6/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: junerose79
I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!
Wow! You've really got our position completely wrong. Completely.
We are talking about the SITUATION and NOT "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" in a general sense.
Not all that passes for "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" is "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, that has had a lot of experience working with young people knows that emotions can rule their "prayers" in a way that an adult would not be led to do.
Any book on dating has to assume that the readers can be as young as 13 or 14! You are thinking like an adult and not going back to the time when you had the mind of a 13 year old. Our brains don't fully mature until at least 18. So, when we give advice about safe things to do while dating have to realize that the vast majority of those dating as very, very young and they do NOT have the same level of spiritual and emotional maturity as an older adult that might be dating. And, people are missing this critical fact COMPLETELY!
I taught EIGHTH GRADERS THAT DATED! And, I can absolutely guarantee you that they did NOT have the maturity to risk the intimacy of praying together alone.
Than prayer has nothing to do with the situation at all. The problem is they are simply two carnal people who are ruled by their physical desires and 'praying' together is simply being used as an excuse to be together. The age and maturity level were not specified in the OP.
_____________________________
"Oh, send out your light and your truth! Let them lead me." |
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 10:39:14 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1422
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
Than prayer has nothing to do with the situation at all. The problem is they are simply two carnal people who are ruled by their physical desires and 'praying' together is simply being used as an excuse to be together. The age and maturity level were not specified in the OP.
Hi JuneRose,
Not actually. I think they could have the purist of intentions and simply fail to understand the vulnerable position that praying together puts them in due to immaturity.
Since the OP mentioned that the suggestion came from a book on dating, I automatically assumed that it was directed to teens and young adults. I know that people marry later these days; but, I still assume that the bulk of the people dating are in high school and college.
I would have agreed with the book's recommendation based on my early experience as a teacher in a Christian school, youth pastor and Sunday School teacher for teens. Sexual attraction is a very powerful force at that age. And, it can distort even good things in ways that would not be distorted in an adult.
If I were writing a book on dating, I would have included the same suggestion based completely on experience with the target group of the book. Some of those responding in this thread aren't even old enough to fully appreciate the dangers. They have confidence in their will power. But, all of us with some years behind us know that will power is not always constant given the right triggers.
But, experience has recently been augmented by the research I've been doing on recent discoveries on the inner workings of the Brain. This adds another dimension to the assessment of the advice. I am assuming, knowing teens, that the boy is not sitting on one end of the couch and the girl on the other when they are praying. I'm assuming that not only are they sitting closely together; but, attempting to achieve more 'oneness' in their prayers by holding hands or even hugging. I'm also assuming this is being done when they are alone together.
Take out the fact that this is being done while praying. Just consider, now, the situation. Alone, sitting very close and touching and/or hugging for an extended period of time. She's probably got on perfume. He's probably got on Cologne or aftershave. Both are breathing so the scents of each are reaching the other... going DIRECTLY to the emotional center of the brain. And, the touching is sending back signals to the brain that start to affect the bonding mechanism more rapidly. When you see the SITUATION in light of what we know about bonding formation and the importance of scent in sexual attraction, you begin to have a recipe for potential trouble.
There is SO much more that I could point out that makes the advice that was given in the book absolutely the best advice that one can give in a book on dating. But, the things I've already mentioned should be enough.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 3/30/2008 10:47:42 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 10:42:09 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1108
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one of the troubling things in this thread is the impression that many feel immune to such temptation. nobody is immune.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 10:47:43 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1422
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
one of the troubling things in this thread is the impression that many feel immune to such temptation. nobody is immune.
Paul's advice was specifically directed to the boldest and most confident of his readers. 
1Co 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
Perhaps the difference is that some are looking at the 'prayer' aspect and aren't considering, as we are, the environment and the way people are made to ensure that humans want to procreate. No matter what age we are, if we fail to appreciate the powerful forces behind sexuality in ALL situations, we are in danger to regret it.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 3/30/2008 10:59:16 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 10:54:33 PM
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sunluvingirl
Posts: 1641
Joined: 6/11/2007
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If the book would have said they strongly discourage for two immature,carnal young people to be alone in an intimate setting & 'cuddling' I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But this 'not praying while dating thing' just seems pretty silly.... I apologize if my post sounded arrogant.
_____________________________
"Oh, send out your light and your truth! Let them lead me." |
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/30/2008 11:08:59 PM
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sunluvingirl
Posts: 1641
Joined: 6/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: junerose79
If the book would have said they strongly discourage for two immature,carnal young people to be alone in an intimate setting & 'cuddling' I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But this 'not praying while dating thing' just seems pretty silly.... I apologize if my post sounded arrogant.
You didn't sound arrogant. I thought you were just focusing on one thing (The good that comes from prayer.) and I was focusing on something else (The environment in which the praying would be done in a dating situation.). 
It's a bit like the story of the three blind men that try to describe an elepant. Our responses were different because we were focused on different aspects of the OP. There's nothing wrong with that. Our give and take provided others both aspects to consider. That's why extending discussions in a forum to fully explore positions is a good thing. 
True
_____________________________
"Oh, send out your light and your truth! Let them lead me." |
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/31/2008 2:47:01 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 5339
Status: offline
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quote:
praying together is almost considered just as intimate as sex
Spiritual intimacy and physical intamacy are very separate things.
In no way, shape or form can praying together be compared to or likened to sex.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/31/2008 3:32:21 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1422
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
praying together is almost considered just as intimate as sex
Spiritual intimacy and physical intamacy are very separate things.
In no way, shape or form can praying together be compared to or likened to sex.
Sam,
Intimacy, by its very nature and definition, is just one thing... bonding... no matter what avenue that it comes from.
If you and others do a bit more research, you will have a better understanding of the basis for the wisdom of cautioning young people not to pray together alone. As I said earlier, even back in the 1960's when I went to Bible college the school cautioned against it. And, they would NOT have done so unless they had had some incidents related to it.
Again, a book on dating has to consider the youngest of the readers... not the oldest. Until a person is at least 18, they don't have the same level of maturity of the prefrontal cortex to be able to tell the difference clearly. We make decisions of right and wrong with our brains and our brains can be heavily influenced by hormones... which is WHY we have COUPLES and DATING in the first place. No hormones... no dating.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/31/2008 4:37:30 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1108
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
praying together is almost considered just as intimate as sex
Spiritual intimacy and physical intamacy are very separate things.
In no way, shape or form can praying together be compared to or likened to sex.
sex involves your body and spirit. this does not mean that prayer involves sex. however, you cannot leave your body somewhere while you pray with someone. your body, your emotions your hormones, all there while you are praying.
God included bonding hormones in us. they are not only stimulated or produced in connection to sexual activity.
i don't think this needs to be focused on teens. plenty of church going praying bible reading christians are falling into sinful, physical intimacy these days.
< Message edited by mrsdash -- 3/31/2008 4:44:04 PM >
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Bad idea to pray together? - 3/31/2008 5:17:48 PM
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sunluvingirl
Posts: 1641
Joined: 6/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
i don't think this needs to be focused on teens. plenty of church going praying bible reading christians are falling into sinful, physical intimacy these days.
Yes, they are, but obviously they are simply going through the motions of being Christians and are not being guided by the Spirit. "Walk in the Spirit and you SHALL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh." Of course we are human and we will have struggles but if we as Christians are falling into sinful, physical intimacy, something is wrong.
_____________________________
"Oh, send out your light and your truth! Let them lead me." |
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