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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 9:47:50 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Have you ever heard of the dispensation of the grace of God? What is being insulted here is the gospel of the grace of God wherein men and women today are saved by grace THROUGH faith plus nothing, including water baptism!
Guess Martin Luther was a VERY confused man indeed! He believed in baptismal regeneration and in Sola Gracia and Sola Fide.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 9:57:42 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
If you want to get water baptised as a believer, as one who already is saved then go ahead! Do it any way you want to. In the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, get sprinkled, get dunked. I could care less about those kinds of arguments. But do not tell me that no one can be saved or is saved unless they are baptised because that's a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God that we are called to preach today, in this dispensation of grace.
So do I have an option whether or not to be baptized? Can I choose to be baptized or choose not to be baptized and it matters not one little bit?
Do it any way I want to? You mean I can be baptized in Italian salad dressing, or mud, or whatever substance I choose?
Were those Christians in Acts just wasting their time?
HD
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 10:11:48 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
"The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4: 1-2
If water baptism is an "ordinance" or a "requirement" then why didn't Jesus baptize anybody? You'd think He would have set the example.
Then why did Christ commission His disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit??? St. Luke 28:18-19
HD
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 10:28:55 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
And, "Christian baptism"??? Where is that in scripture??? Since you believe in basing your doctrine on ONE verse, give me the EXACT verse where I can see that "Christian baptism" is biblical and not man-made.
Yep, those Christians in Acts were very confused.
quote:
lgpreachermand: "If we move into Acts, Peter says these people have recieved the Holy Spirit what is stopping them from being Baptized with WATER"
WildByNature: "Ah, yes ... Peter ... the guy who always understood Christ. The guy who didn't even understand why he was there until AFTER he was there. The guy who didn't even believe these Gentiles were able to receive the Spirit at all. The guy who, although God had already declared them clean, insisted they be made clean according to Jewish law. This is your go-to-guy to prove baptism is physical and not spiritual for Christians?
Ah yes, the Apostle who asked to be crucified upside down because he thought himself not worthy to be crucified like his Lord. Guess we should toss out the letters of I & II Peter as well. A guy like you describe couldn't have been moved by the Holy Spirit to write Sacred Scripture. BTW, have you written any Sacred Scripture lately?
Wild, I suppose you know more than the Apostles, eh? Feel free to mock Peter and all the other Christians who baptized with water. You reveal something about yourself by doing so. And that something is not very complimentary. 
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 12:16:44 AM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
"rileykins,
Please stop skating the issue tell me where the Bible says that Baptism is spiritual and NOT physical.
lg, It's both, not either/or as attested by Jesus' answer to Nicodemus. And many examples in Acts where people were baptized in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit. Too tired right now to get all the references, but will gladly do so if you request.
quote:
Lg: "Paul is quite clear that Baptism is the new circumsision and MUST be done as part of the faith."
I have met a number of Presbyterian brethren who call themselves "Covenanters" who also believe this. They believe that the Lord instituted Baptism as a Covenant to replace the Old Covenant. Those from the OPC and PCA teach this.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 4:43:46 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The verse says: "baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,"
Water baptism does not remit sins. Well, of course it doesn't. Glad you agree.
quote:
But you must admit, based on the verse you quoted, that there is some connection between baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the remission of sins. There sure is a connection, especially when we understand that the only baptism that does remit sins is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - not water.
quote:
I agree with John Stott who says that in the NT "baptism means water baptism unless in the context it is stated to the contrary."
He's entitled to his opinion, of course, even though he has no particular biblical support for it.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 4:45:39 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
quote:
ORIGINAL: jfaye
Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?
I was baptized in the Catholic church when I was a baby. But I wasn't saved until I recieved Jesus at the age of 19. I have never been baptized in water since I was saved, but I have been baptized in the Holy spirit.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord (Titus 3:5-6)
Our sins are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, and we are baptized in His Holy spirit. Water baptism is not essential for Salvation Exactly, to believe otherwise is actually to be saved by a work we do - a decision we make. Water baptism hasn't the slightest effect on regeneration as can be seen by the many who have been water baptized yet never come to faith. Nor does the Bible ever make the claim that it does.
It is as you say "an outward sign". It is simply a sign commanded by God to be followed by the believer and the children of believers.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 4:47:56 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
But if you show and confess your Faith in Jesus other ways, such as saying the sinners prayer or talking about your Faith to others, then you are still saved even if you never get baptized in water.
Sounds good, but unfortunately there is nothing in the Bible that says we are saved by "saying the sinners prayer or talking about your faith to others." There are, however, a numbers of verses that make some kind of connection between baptism and salvation, and I believe that Titus 3:5-6 is one of them.
Actually, there is more support in Scripture for becoming saved as a result of prayer than water baptism. In fact, there is no support for the water baptism salvation pov.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: -Luke 18:13-14
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 4:49:10 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
In addition, the evidence is overwhelming in Acts 10 that regeneration takes place before water baptism.
Excellent points.
And, that regeneration occurs with and not before faith. 
There is some question as to whether Acts 10 portrays regeneration taking place before water baptism. Would you explain how this does not clearly say they were saved before water baptism?
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
quote:
But even if it does, its the only place in all of Scripture that does. So, I don't think I'll base my doctrine on a single example when there are multiple examples of it taking place in other orders. It is an abundantly clear verse with no ambiquity whatsoever. God could not have said it any plainly. There is not another verse that equals it in clarity even when insisting, for no good reason, that the very mention of "baptism" means water.
quote:
And I completely agree that regeneration cannot occur prior to faith.
Rather, regeneration can only occur prior to faith. Faith and repentance are the gifts of God and are the evidence of salvation.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. -Hebrews 11:1
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 10:04:54 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Would you explain how this does not clearly say they were saved before water baptism?
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
OK, I'll take a stab at it. "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" When Peter says "just as we have," or "as well as we" he's referring back to what happened on the Day of Pentecost. In other words the speaking in tongues. He doesn't appear to be referring to their salvation, since there is nothing anywhere in the passage that says they were saved by speaking in tongues or that speaking in tongues is equal to the regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit. Since they did speak in tongues, Peter recognized that God wanted them to be a part of the church and in order for that to occur they had to be saved. That's why Peter commanded them to be baptized.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 10:23:13 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu-khomar
Where are two examples of people receiving the Spirit of God AT Baptism? What you could do is just agree based on the biblical accounts of acts that the spirit can come before or after baptism, because we see each happening. I believe that when Peter told the people in Acts 2:38 to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, he was telling them that they would receive the Holy Spirit when they were baptized. I suppose you could make a case for receiving the Spirit after baptism in this verse, though. Also, in Acts 9:17-18 when Paul was baptized, it looks as if he received the Holy Spirit at baptism. I suppose that can be interpreted differently as well, though.
BTW I do agree, based on the biblical accounts in Acts that the Spirit comes before or after baptism. However, I do believe that those accounts are exceptional and that under normal circumstances the Holy Spirit arrives in our lives at baptism.
Anyway, you must admit that conversion events in the book of Acts happened rather differently than they do in the Evangelical world today. Nowhere in the book of Acts can we read that conversion is asking Jesus into your heart through offering a "sinner's prayer." Rather, the one who would call upon the name of the Lord is baptized in the name of Jesus. When Ananias in Damascus finds Paul , he is told to "arise and be baptized. . .calling upon the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). Baptism is the "sinner's prayer" in Acts.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 10:27:53 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
So the Holy Spirit of God was indwelling lost people that, accordong to some corners, were in jeopardy of going to hell if they didn't get dunked before they died? Remarkable. Talk about unequally yoked... So the Holy Spirit had to be indwelling lost people before He could impart a gift to them? Remarkable!! Talk about limiting the power of the Holy Spirit.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 10:32:37 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
So the Holy Spirit of God was indwelling lost people that, accordong to some corners, were in jeopardy of going to hell if they didn't get dunked before they died? Remarkable. Talk about unequally yoked... So the Holy Spirit had to be indwelling lost people before He could impart a gift to them? Remarkable!! Talk about limiting the power of the Holy Spirit.
From what I can gather from the Bible, the Holy Spirit only indwells, tabernacles, lives within the redeemed.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 12:19:03 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
From what I can gather from the Bible, the Holy Spirit only indwells, tabernacles, lives within the redeemed. Precisely. But does that mean that everyone who exhibits gifts of the Spirit must redeemed, i.e., have the Holy Spirit indwelling within them?
It is my belief that Cornelius and his household were given the gift of tongues by the Holy Spirit before He actually indwelt them, in order to convince Peter and the other Jews that the Gentiles were to be part of the church as well. As soon as that convincing had occured, Peter commanded that they be baptized.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 12:44:56 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
From what I can gather from the Bible, the Holy Spirit only indwells, tabernacles, lives within the redeemed. Precisely. But does that mean that everyone who exhibits gifts of the Spirit must redeemed, i.e., have the Holy Spirit indwelling within them?
It is my belief that Cornelius and his household were given the gift of tongues by the Holy Spirit before He actually indwelt them, in order to convince Peter and the other Jews that the Gentiles were to be part of the church as well. As soon as that convincing had occured, Peter commanded that they be baptized.
I do not understand the passage the same way. They heard the Gospel, believed, and received the Holy Spirit. Then they were baptized due to the confirming sign of tongues.
Using Acts, a history book without in-depth doctrine, as a huge part of building one's doctrines can be fraught with problems. For example, that very passage only states that they were baptized in the name of Jesus - something the Oneness folk use to "prove the error" of baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 3:34:19 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu-khomar
Where are two examples of people receiving the Spirit of God AT Baptism? What you could do is just agree based on the biblical accounts of acts that the spirit can come before or after baptism, because we see each happening. I believe that when Peter told the people in Acts 2:38 to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, he was telling them that they would receive the Holy Spirit when they were baptized. I suppose you could make a case for receiving the Spirit after baptism in this verse, though. Also, in Acts 9:17-18 when Paul was baptized, it looks as if he received the Holy Spirit at baptism. I suppose that can be interpreted differently as well, though.
But Acts 2:38 does not say or teach the Spirit will come AT baptism. No time frame is given, and, based upon scripture, the spirit is shown to come before, or after, but never AT baptism, like you so choose to believe.
quote:
BTW I do agree, based on the biblical accounts in Acts that the Spirit comes before or after baptism. However, I do believe that those accounts are exceptional and that under normal circumstances the Holy Spirit arrives in our lives at baptism.
Under normal circumstances? What is a normal circumstance? How are the own accounts and examples that are laid out in God's word not, normal, and if they arent the norm, shouldnt they be? Shouldnt the norm be what is in the bible and what happened in the first church for numerous years be the norm as compared to molding the norm to be something that we are more comfortable with in today's day in age? I remember a post I read when you were discussing with Jimbo Fletch and you stated that because Acts 10 is an event that only happened once in the bible, it probably isnt the standard, or something similar to that. But, how many time does it have to happen for it to be the standard, more than once? We see the spirit coming after baptism twice, thats more than once, but why dont you believe this is 'normal?' Yet, never do we see the Spirit coming at baptism like you say you believe it does, why would it happen differently now than it did when it is recorded in scripture for years?
quote:
Anyway, you must admit that conversion events in the book of Acts happened rather differently than they do in the Evangelical world today. Nowhere in the book of Acts can we read that conversion is asking Jesus into your heart through offering a "sinner's prayer." Rather, the one who would call upon the name of the Lord is baptized in the name of Jesus. When Ananias in Damascus finds Paul , he is told to "arise and be baptized. . .calling upon the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). Baptism is the "sinner's prayer" in Acts.
Why do they happen differently now, is it because God changed the way he operates, or the conditions for salvation have changed? No, I dont think so. I think salvation happens the exact same way now as it did in the beginning, its not God's job to change the way, or how people are saved, but it man's job to see and follow the guidelines and examples he has set in stone for us in scripture.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/22/2008 3:51:35 PM
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FreeGrace
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Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Rather, regeneration can only occur prior to faith. Faith and repentance are the gifts of God and are the evidence of salvation.
kelman,
As you know, this belongs on the c/a thread, not here. If you take it there, I will be happy to show you that they occur at the same time.
Faith cannot be an "evidence" of salvation, since we are saved through faith. You are suggesting we are saved before faith.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/23/2008 4:01:22 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3721
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
He doesn't appear to be referring to their salvation, since there is nothing anywhere in the passage that says they were saved by speaking in tongues or that speaking in tongues is equal to the regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, there's nothing in Scripture which says we're "saved by speaking in tongues" or that it's equal to regeneration; and, no one has ever argued there was. So, wouldn't you call this a strawman you're buiding?
quote:
Since they did speak in tongues, Peter recognized that God wanted them to be a part of the church and in order for that to occur they had to be saved. That's why Peter commanded them to be baptized. There isn't the least bit of support for those suppositions. Where are you able to find support that those who spoke in tongues - a gift of the Holy Spirit - were unsaved? In fact, this was the evidence of salvation God gave in four instances at the very beginning of the NT church.
There remains nothing which modifies the clear statement of Peter's. To try to impose any other meaning appears to be a rather desparate attempt to uphold a preconceived doctrine. You're not letting the Bible explain what baptism is; instead, you are imposing your own doctrine on the Bible. Much better to let Scripture speak.
< Message edited by kelman -- 4/23/2008 4:16:59 AM >
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/23/2008 4:55:25 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3721
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
BTW I do agree, based on the biblical accounts in Acts that the Spirit comes before or after baptism. However, I do believe that those accounts are exceptional and that under normal circumstances the Holy Spirit arrives in our lives at baptism. God is quite clear in John 3:8 that the Holy Spirit "arrives" when and where He please. Just as the Apostles did miracles to authenticate that their authority was from God, so "speaking in tongues" was an authentication of salvation.....both were temporary gifts.
quote:
Nowhere in the book of Acts can we read that conversion is asking Jesus into your heart through offering a "sinner's prayer." Tell that to the publican who was justified before God as a result of a prayer. You won't find that said of water baptism.
Peter gives a good description of the "great commission" given by Christ before His ascension; and, notice no mention of "water" baptism:
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. -Acts 10:42-43
And then Peter declares that by the preaching of the "word" they received the Holy Spirit.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. -Acts 10:44
In Acts 19:4-6, they received the Holy Spirit after they were water baptized. So, no matter how you look at it people were saved before and after water baptism proving once again that regeneration does not occur in water baptism.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/23/2008 9:46:46 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Since they did speak in tongues, Peter recognized that God wanted them to be a part of the church and in order for that to occur they had to be saved. That's why Peter commanded them to be baptized. There isn't the least bit of support for those suppositions. Where are you able to find support that those who spoke in tongues - a gift of the Holy Spirit - were unsaved? In fact, this was the evidence of salvation God gave in four instances at the very beginning of the NT church. I maintain that the gift of speaking in tongues was, in fact, not the evidence of salvation, but simply the verification of God's message that salvation was now available through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/23/2008 9:55:30 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORGINAL: kelman
There remains nothing which modifies the clear statement of Peter's. To try to impose any other meaning appears to be a rather desparate attempt to uphold a preconceived doctrine. You're not letting the Bible explain what baptism is; instead, you are imposing your own doctrine on the Bible. Much better to let Scripture speak. Actually, I am letting the Scripture speak. It was when I believed in "faith only" that I had to dismiss certain passages of Scripture and not let them speak, that I was imposing a preconceived notion on Scripture. It was when I gave up the preconceived notion that salvation comes through faith alone that Scripture really began to speak to me. And I found that there is a strong connection between baptism and salvation.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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