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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 7:50:55 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
What if someone you have been teaching your understanding to in fact does become baptized, and you tell them they have received the holy spirit, and they believe this too because its what they ahve ben taught, but... they dont receive it at baptism... then what? Since I believe that God grants the Holy Spirit to people when they are baptized I would naturally assume that occurred at every baptism. But if, by some chance God goes back on His promise and doesn't grant His Holy Spirit to someone who is baptized, how would I know?
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 12:44:46 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 416
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
What I would like to stress about the book of Acts is that every believer was baptized. No matter when they received the Holy Spirit, before, during, or after, they were all baptized. There is no such thing in the entire New Testament as an unbaptized believer. In fact, if the word "oxymoron" had been around in the 1st century, I'm sure that's how early believers would have seen the phrase "unbaptized believer." 
Excellent point, GreatDivide. This is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Today, we have Christians who think they have the option as to whether or not they should be baptized. In that case, why didn't Christ say to His disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, and if you want to, you can baptize them. Since it's just a ritual without meaning, the choice is up to you." And why is it recorded in the New Testament that the Church baptized people if it was just a ritual and without any meaning? Perhaps some Christians think they are more enlightened than the Apostles and Early Church.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 5:19:45 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 381
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
What I would like to stress about the book of Acts is that every believer was baptized. No matter when they received the Holy Spirit, before, during, or after, they were all baptized. There is no such thing in the entire New Testament as an unbaptized believer. In fact, if the word "oxymoron" had been around in the 1st century, I'm sure that's how early believers would have seen the phrase "unbaptized believer."
Excellent point, GreatDivide. This is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Today, we have Christians who think they have the option as to whether or not they should be baptized. In that case, why didn't Christ say to His disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, and if you want to, you can baptize them. Since it's just a ritual without meaning, the choice is up to you." And why is it recorded in the New Testament that the Church baptized people if it was just a ritual and without any meaning? Perhaps some Christians think they are more enlightened than the Apostles and Early Church.
Heavendweller
I really agree with you. There are some protestant denominations that say baptism is unimportant. Where in the bible does it say that baptism is unimportant? Jesus Himself said the opposite. Go and baptize all nations. I believe there are too many protestants who just seem to ignore the meaning of baptism. That is why I am in the group I am in (LCMS), who teach in order to receive the Holy Spirit, you have to be batized. There are no if's, and's, or but's. It's in God's Holy Word.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 10:32:22 PM
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twonatures
Posts: 101
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From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
I answered it above your last post to me.
So I am not opposed to it I just don't have the same scriptural interpretation that you do
thus I don't see the importance of it other than a ritual display.
I certainly would not go around pushing it on others because it detracts from the focus on Christ and identifying with him. I guess I missed it. So I'm going to assume, based on this post, that you think a person who believes and knows to be baptized, but refuses to do so, is still saved since, according to you baptism as nothing more than a "ritual display." I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. 
"knows to be baptized"???
No I don't think I am in that category
because I don't interpret the great commission as a command to be baptized.
It's to get the Word out to the whole world so that people will identify with the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.
Plus it's not good to over emphasize baptism leading to the misconception that it automatically leads to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which of course is totally not scriptural.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/4/2008 2:47:36 AM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
What if someone you have been teaching your understanding to in fact does become baptized, and you tell them they have received the holy spirit, and they believe this too because its what they ahve ben taught, but... they dont receive it at baptism... then what? Since I believe that God grants the Holy Spirit to people when they are baptized I would naturally assume that occurred at every baptism. But if, by some chance God goes back on His promise and doesn't grant His Holy Spirit to someone who is baptized, how would I know?
God doesnt say he promises it AT baptism, that is the key thing. The verse says if u have repented and have been baptized in the name of jesus Christ for the remission of sins, then ye shall receive the holy ghost. and it is promised, if u have fulfilled the entire verse, not a part of it, or a section of it. what if the person is baptized and then receives the spirit alter, such as in acts 8 and acts 19? since there arent any specific examples of people receiving it at baptism in scripture.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/4/2008 3:34:59 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
First, Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius and the Holy Spirit fell upon them exactly as He did upon those at Pentecost with the evidence of tongues. And, we see in Acts 10:42-42 that it was: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word". So, how does this mean salvation, when all it says is that the Holy Spirit "fell upon" them. Is it because He "fell upon" them while Peter was speaking the words that it means salvation in this case, but not in other cases where He "fell upon" the prophets? In the OT, we see different manifestations of the Holy Spirit than we do in the NT. We see He "came upon", "filled", "moved", "fell upon". The context of each helps us to understand the meaning of the terms. Did the Holy Spirit move wicked men in the OT?...yes, He did. But Scripture never leaves us in doubt as to who the wicked are.
A few more passages which indicate the Holy Spirit indwelled OT believers:
“But at last Daniel came before me (his name is Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god; in him is the Spirit of the Holy God), and I told the dream before him…” - Daniel 4:8 Notice here the king differentiates between his god and the true God and states that the Spirit of the Holy God was in Daniel.
The Holy Spirit was present in OT saints who would, without Him, have been unable to believe and unable to enter heaven with their own dead spirit.
We see that Job believed in the "Redeemer" same as NT believers must.“For I know that my Redeemer lives.” -Job 19:25 In Romans 4:16, we see Abraham was saved by the same grace as we are.
We know that John the Baptist, who really was an OT prophet, was filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb. We know that Elizabeth and Zacharias were filled with the Holy Spirit both on the OT side. They were filled exactly as those on Pentecost were "filled with the Holy Spirit”.
Tongues were significant and prominent in Acts because the phenomena of Pentecost demonstrated clearly that God was empowering the church to go to “all nations.”
The identical phenomenon in the case of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-48) was necessary in order to persuade skeptical Jews that God had truly received the Gentiles and that these too were also saved. (Acts 11:1-18, esp. v.15-18)
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Second, there is evidence of believers being indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the OT. In addition, 1Peter 1:10-11 doesn't say that the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT prophets. It says that the Spirit of Christ was IN them; therefore, they too were indwelled by the Holy Spirit exactly as believers are today. Certainly the Spirit of Christ was IN the OT prophets, but only the prophets,... How do you scriptually justify differentiating between "being in" and "indwelling"?
quote:
....and then it wasn't necessarily a permanent indwelling like it is today. So, I don't believe it was "exactly" as believers today are indwelled by the Holy Spirit What OT believer of whom it was said the Holy Spirit was “in” subsequently lost the Holy Spirit? What of John the Baptist, Elisabeth and Zacharias...did they too have the Holy Spirit removed at some time?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/4/2008 3:47:34 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So, God allows some people to be saved differently than others. Yes, that is precisely what is being proposed - God has two salvation plans. Even though there exists not the slightest bit of evidence for this. And, no doubt, there is probably a third salvation plan for children.
The problem is, though, that Scripture reveals only ONE salvation plan presented by God.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/4/2008 8:14:09 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
"knows to be baptized"???
No I don't think I am in that category
because I don't interpret the great commission as a command to be baptized.
It's to get the Word out to the whole world so that people will identify with the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. I agree with your interpretation of the great commission. It is not a command to be baptized. It is a command to get the Word out to the whole world so that people will identify with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. However, in order for people to identify with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost someone must baptize them, and that command IS in the great commission. But in order for people to carry out the great commission and baptize people so that they will be identified with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, people have to be baptized.
quote:
Plus it's not good to over emphasize baptism leading to the misconception that it automatically leads to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which of course is totally not scriptural. Actually there is more scripture support for receiving the Holy Spirit at baptism than there is for receiving the Holy Spirit at some unspecified time when we exhibit faith alone.
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/4/2008 8:23:18 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Second, there is evidence of believers being indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the OT. In addition, 1Peter 1:10-11 doesn't say that the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT prophets. It says that the Spirit of Christ was IN them; therefore, they too were indwelled by the Holy Spirit exactly as believers are today. Certainly the Spirit of Christ was IN the OT prophets, but only the prophets,...
How do you scriptually justify differentiating between "being in" and "indwelling"? I'm not attempting to differentiate between "being in" and "indwelling." All I'm saying is that only certain people in the OT were indwelled by the Holy Spirit, not every believer, and that was not necessarily a permanent indwelling, although in some cases it was. Certainly that is not like today when the Holy Spirit indwells every single believer whether they are a prophet/preacher or not.
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/4/2008 8:28:37 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What OT believer of whom it was said the Holy Spirit was “in” subsequently lost the Holy Spirit? Well, JimboFletch mentioned Samson and I mentioned Saul, from both of whom the Holy Spirit departed. Now, I haven't looked it up to see if the Holy Spirit was actually "in" them or not, but it seems reasonable to conclude that if He departed from them, He must have been in them.
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 4:43:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3141
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Second, there is evidence of believers being indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the OT. In addition, 1Peter 1:10-11 doesn't say that the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT prophets. It says that the Spirit of Christ was IN them; therefore, they too were indwelled by the Holy Spirit exactly as believers are today. Certainly the Spirit of Christ was IN the OT prophets, but only the prophets,...
How do you scriptually justify differentiating between "being in" and "indwelling"? I'm not attempting to differentiate between "being in" and "indwelling." All I'm saying is that only certain people in the OT were indwelled by the Holy Spirit, not every believer, and that was not necessarily a permanent indwelling, although in some cases it was.
You have no evidence that "every" believer was not indwelled by the Holy Spirit - it is simply an assumption. And one, I might add which is contradicted by the verses I provided.
quote:
Certainly that is not like today when the Holy Spirit indwells every single believer whether they are a prophet/preacher or not. The fact is there is little evidence of very many in the OT being saved. Precisely my point that the extent of God's salvation plan changed at Pentecost. In the NT, because of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit ALL believers are "prophets" because they are qualified by God to preach the Word of God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 4:44:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3141
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What OT believer of whom it was said the Holy Spirit was “in” subsequently lost the Holy Spirit? Well, JimboFletch mentioned Samson and I mentioned Saul, from both of whom the Holy Spirit departed. Now, I haven't looked it up to see if the Holy Spirit was actually "in" them or not, but it seems reasonable to conclude that if He departed from them, He must have been in them.
Saul was never saved so he is irrelevant.
As for Samson, it is fairly obvious that since it says "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" at least four times (Judges 13:25; 14:6; 14:19; 15:14) that it is not referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I hope we can agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a "one" time event?
It means the power of God particularly came upon him so as to make him victorious, courageous and powerful in his exploits. And when he violated his vows, the power of God, the gift of strength, was removed from him.
Thanks for the great discussion, greatdivide!
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 7:41:33 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5072
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So, God allows some people to be saved differently than others. Yes, that is precisely what is being proposed - God has two salvation plans. Even though there exists not the slightest bit of evidence for this. And, no doubt, there is probably a third salvation plan for children.
The problem is, though, that Scripture reveals only ONE salvation plan presented by God.
The "problem" is bigger than you realize, kelman. Since you admit "there exists not the slightest bit of evidence" for more than 1 salvation plan, just where do you get your material? Thanks.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 7:43:32 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5072
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What OT believer of whom it was said the Holy Spirit was “in” subsequently lost the Holy Spirit? Well, JimboFletch mentioned Samson and I mentioned Saul, from both of whom the Holy Spirit departed. Now, I haven't looked it up to see if the Holy Spirit was actually "in" them or not, but it seems reasonable to conclude that if He departed from them, He must have been in them.
Please remember that the Holy Spirit was not promised to each and every OT believer, as is promised to each and every NT believer. David's prayer for God not to take the Holy Spirit from him is an invalid prayer today.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 7:50:02 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5072
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What OT believer of whom it was said the Holy Spirit was “in” subsequently lost the Holy Spirit? Well, JimboFletch mentioned Samson and I mentioned Saul, from both of whom the Holy Spirit departed. Now, I haven't looked it up to see if the Holy Spirit was actually "in" them or not, but it seems reasonable to conclude that if He departed from them, He must have been in them.
Saul was never saved so he is irrelevant.
As for Samson, it is fairly obvious that since it says "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" at least four times (Judges 13:25; 14:6; 14:19; 15:14) that it is not referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I hope we can agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a "one" time event?
kelman, we've been through this before. You are being quite inconsistent to insist that Saul wasn't saved and Samson was on the "fairly obvious" grounds that "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" in several passages.
You would have to ignore or simply reject 1 Sam 10:6 regarding Saul. "Then the Spirit of the Lord WILL come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man."
You allow that Samson, quite the immoral womanizer, to be saved, yet you reject Saul's salvation, in spite of the FACT that both had the Spirit of the Lord upon them.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 7:59:29 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Saul was never saved so he is irrelevant.
As for Samson, it is fairly obvious that since it says "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" at least four times (Judges 13:25; 14:6; 14:19; 15:14) that it is not referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I hope we can agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a "one" time event?
It means the power of God particularly came upon him so as to make him victorious, courageous and powerful in his exploits. And when he violated his vows, the power of God, the gift of strength, was removed from him.
Thanks for the great discussion, greatdivide!
When they came to Gibeah, behold, a group of prophets met him (Saul) and the Spirit of God rushed upon him, and he prophesied among them (1 Samuel 10:10).
While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God (Acts 10:44-46).
If Saul wasn't saved when the Spirit "rushed upon" him, then neither was Cornelius and his household saved with the Spirit "fell on" on them or was "poured out on" them, since the meaning of the terminology is identical.
Thank you, too, for the discussion. I always enjoy our discussions, kelman. I hope this one isn't over, but if it is, I hope we get in another one soon.
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 10:19:47 AM
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twonatures
Posts: 101
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
"knows to be baptized"???
No I don't think I am in that category
because I don't interpret the great commission as a command to be baptized.
It's to get the Word out to the whole world so that people will identify with the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. I agree with your interpretation of the great commission. It is not a command to be baptized. It is a command to get the Word out to the whole world so that people will identify with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. However, in order for people to identify with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost someone must baptize them, and that command IS in the great commission. But in order for people to carry out the great commission and baptize people so that they will be identified with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, people have to be baptized.
quote:
Plus it's not good to over emphasize baptism leading to the misconception that it automatically leads to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which of course is totally not scriptural. Actually there is more scripture support for receiving the Holy Spirit at baptism than there is for receiving the Holy Spirit at some unspecified time when we exhibit faith alone.
Yoour not saying much except that regeneration obviously is not tied to baptism
since it's non exclusive.
And as far as identification:
The translators did not translate the Greek word baptiz, they merely transliterated it. They just spelled the Greek word out in English, because baptiz has about twenty meanings.
One of the meanings is identification.
For example in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ….” We are identified with Christ.
You can act out the death and resurrection with a splash if you want but I don't see any need for the ritual.
Do you get a charge out of it or something?
What's the big attraction, perhaps power or control over people?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 11:58:02 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures.
Yoour not saying much except that regeneration obviously is not tied to baptism
since it's non exclusive.
And as far as identification:
The translators did not translate the Greek word baptiz, they merely transliterated it. They just spelled the Greek word out in English, because baptiz has about twenty meanings.
One of the meanings is identification.
For example in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ….” We are identified with Christ.
You can act out the death and resurrection with a splash if you want but I don't see any need for the ritual.
Do you get a charge out of it or something?
What's the big attraction, perhaps power or control over people? Well, obviously I'm not nearly as erudite as you are. In my simple mind when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12:13, "for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. . ." I accept the common meaning of the words. I don't have enough smarts to parse "baptism" into "identification." I would think that if Paul meant that by one Spirit are we all identified with one body, that's what he would have said. Surely there's a word in Greek that means "identify." But like I say, I'm not smart enough to figure out that baptism doesn't mean with water, unless it specifically says so in the verse. So, whenever I see the word "baptism" I automatically think of water, and that includes 1 Corinthians 12:13.
I do think it unfortuante, though, that there are people who so easily dismiss those portions of the Word of God that they don't like. 
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 3:27:57 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures.
Yoour not saying much except that regeneration obviously is not tied to baptism
since it's non exclusive.
And as far as identification:
The translators did not translate the Greek word baptiz, they merely transliterated it. They just spelled the Greek word out in English, because baptiz has about twenty meanings.
One of the meanings is identification.
For example in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ….” We are identified with Christ.
You can act out the death and resurrection with a splash if you want but I don't see any need for the ritual.
Do you get a charge out of it or something?
What's the big attraction, perhaps power or control over people? Well, obviously I'm not nearly as erudite as you are. In my simple mind when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12:13, "for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. . ." I accept the common meaning of the words. I don't have enough smarts to parse "baptism" into "identification." I would think that if Paul meant that by one Spirit are we all identified with one body, that's what he would have said. Surely there's a word in Greek that means "identify." But like I say, I'm not smart enough to figure out that baptism doesn't mean with water, unless it specifically says so in the verse. So, whenever I see the word "baptism" I automatically think of water, and that includes 1 Corinthians 12:13.
I do think it unfortuante, though, that there are people who so easily dismiss those portions of the Word of God that they don't like.
So when The word says Jesus will baptize people with the whole ghost.... u think that means water?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 3:41:24 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu-khomar
So when The word says Jesus will baptize people with the whole ghost.... u think that means water? The "whole ghost?" You mean we get it all??
Seriously, though, no, I don't think that when the word says Jesus will baptize people with the Holy Ghost, that that means water. As I stated earlier, unless the verse or the context specifically says something different I always assume baptism means with water. This is one of those verses where it specifically says something different, i.e., "with the Holy Ghost." However, by the same token, I don't believe that excludes water baptism.
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 5:58:51 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3141
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Saul was never saved so he is irrelevant.
As for Samson, it is fairly obvious that since it says "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" at least four times (Judges 13:25; 14:6; 14:19; 15:14) that it is not referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I hope we can agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a "one" time event?
It means the power of God particularly came upon him so as to make him victorious, courageous and powerful in his exploits. And when he violated his vows, the power of God, the gift of strength, was removed from him.
Thanks for the great discussion, greatdivide! Thank you, too, for the discussion. I always enjoy our discussions, kelman. I hope this one isn't over, but if it is, I hope we get in another one soon. I don't know, gd, just when I think there's nothing left to say...lol
quote:
When they came to Gibeah, behold, a group of prophets met him (Saul) and the Spirit of God rushed upon him, and he prophesied among them (1 Samuel 10:10).
While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God (Acts 10:44-46).
If Saul wasn't saved when the Spirit "rushed upon" him, then neither was Cornelius and his household saved with the Spirit "fell on" on them or was "poured out on" them, since the meaning of the terminology is identical.
The meaning really isn't identical because we know from other passages that Cornelius became saved by the preaching of Peter's words at this point. In Acts 11:14-18, it says the angel told Cornelius that Peter would tell him words by which he would be saved(vs 14). Peter says that the Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning(vs 15). Then Peter diffentiated between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit(vs 16). The Jews with Peter said this proved God had granted "repentance" to the Gentiles(vs 18). And, repentance and faith are the result or evidence of salvation. Therefore, Cornelius, et al, were saved as Peter preached to them and the Holy Spirit fell upon them.
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. -Acts 11:14-18
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/5/2008 6:04:54 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5072
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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