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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 7:01:58 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Only believers are saved, gd. Cornelius wasn't saved until Peter preached. That's when he believed. What does Acts 10:43 say about being forgiven (saved) in the OT. "through faith in His Name". I agree that only believers are saved. But I find it very difficult to believe that an unbeliever can be described as a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God (Acts 10:2).
Why should it be difficult since Peter's recollection of what Cornelius told him makes clear that he was not a saved man before Peter came?
Rom 1 shows that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God. This indicates that all are capable of it. And Cornelius is an example of one who did.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 7:28:31 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Cornelius wasn't saved in Acts 10:2, Scripture is very clear on this point. Being “devout” and charitable doesn’t translate into being saved. Paul, before Damascus, was quite a devout Pharisee and he was not saved. So, being devout, charitable and praying to God continually is no indication that a person is a believer? Then what were Paul and Cornelius lacking that would have made them believers? Since believing, apparently, is all that's required to be saved.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 7:48:21 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
People are told - make your decision - only believe - only confess. And, if you do, you can be saved right now. Only problem is that God saves in His own good time as He teaches in John 3 - not when people decide it's time to become saved or water baptized. So God saving in His own good time, as He teaches in John 3, can never take place when someone decides to be saved or is water baptized? Why does God's own good time mean anytime He chooses, except when someone decides to be saved or is water baptized?
It seems to me that God saving someone in His own good time means He will save them whenever He chooses and He could choose to wait until a person decides to become saved or water baptized. If we exclude a decision to become saved or water baptized, then we're not really saying that God saves in His own good time.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 5/21/2008 8:07:59 AM >
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 8:00:30 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why should it be difficult since Peter's recollection of what Cornelius told him makes clear that he was not a saved man before Peter came? I agree that Cornelius was not a saved man before Peter came. But did he believe? Acts 10:2, while it can be the actions of an unsaved person, I suppose, hardly seems the actions of an unbeliever.
quote:
Rom 1 shows that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God. This indicates that all are capable of it. And Cornelius is an example of one who did.
Seems to me that only someone who actually believed in God would recognize and honor God. Why would an unbeliever even want to do that?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 11:53:45 AM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It is because they hold to what is called "believer's baptism" and because we don't find a specific statement that children were baptized. They will maintain this even in the face of a number of passages which say that entire "households" were water baptized. People are sometimes so indoctrinated into their belief system they cannot see what Scripture clearly presents to the contrary.
Oftentimes people are not interested in learning "all" that the Bible presents concerning a subject especially when it conflicts with what they hold dear. Instead, it's safer not to look any further than their favorite passages which seemingly support their position. This is applicable to many biblical doctrines not just water baptism.
I'm afraid here I must totally disagree with your belief as outlined. The Holy Spirit does not indwell the individual, whether an adult or a child, at water baptism. This is well proven in the case of Cornelius. There is no physical act we can perform that can ever give substance to our salvation. The whole action of salvation is entirely God's action and man cannot make any contribution to it. Water baptism can never remove even one sin nor can it instill faith. Faith and repentance is the evidence that the individual has been saved.
While Scripture teaches that children, even those in the womb, can be saved, it is not by the work of water baptism. As John 3 teaches, the Holy Spirit goes where and when He pleases as He does the work of regeneration in the individual - making them "born from above".
[Concerning their children believers are commanded to "but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." And, if they are believers, they will.
Hello Kelman!
Can I then ask you about this passage?
Acts 2:38-39
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."(ESV)
It seems that in this passage the Apostle Peter is saying that the forgiveness of sins happens at baptism. I'm not saying it can't happen before. But it seems what happens at baptism, the Old Man (sinful nature) has no hold on you anymore once you are baptized. The sinful nature is still there, but it cannot condemn you anymore once you are baptized.
This passage also seems to say that you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit once you are baptized.
There are passages in scripture, that I am aware of, that the Apostles would lay hands on people after they were baptized. I think what happened to Cornelius was that the Holy Spirit fell on him. But I don't think that is the same thing as indwelling him. I do believe though, that baptism is a little more than just a sign. I do know that the Old Man cannot condemn you anymore, since you have been washed through baptism. And I do believe the Holy Spirit either is given to you at, or after, water baptism. To me, I do not view baptism as a work, but as God's work, not man's. It is God who is doing the baptizing, even though it is performed by a man.
To explain this, I will quote Martin Luther
"What benefits does Baptism give? It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare."
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=423
In order for you to receive the benefits of baptism, you have to believe.
It seems we may disagree on this one subject, but we should focus on the areas we do agree on.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/21/2008 3:00:27 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 1:41:36 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Cornelius wasn't saved in Acts 10:2, Scripture is very clear on this point. Being “devout” and charitable doesn’t translate into being saved. Paul, before Damascus, was quite a devout Pharisee and he was not saved. So, being devout, charitable and praying to God continually is no indication that a person is a believer? Then what were Paul and Cornelius lacking that would have made them believers? Since believing, apparently, is all that's required to be saved.
Believing is all they lacked, because, believing is all that is required to be saved.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 1:44:28 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why should it be difficult since Peter's recollection of what Cornelius told him makes clear that he was not a saved man before Peter came? I agree that Cornelius was not a saved man before Peter came. But did he believe? Acts 10:2, while it can be the actions of an unsaved person, I suppose, hardly seems the actions of an unbeliever.
Jesus equated believing with being saved in Luke 8:12. Therefore, they go together. Also, you cannot read the gospel of John and miss that fact.
quote:
quote:
Rom 1 shows that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God. This indicates that all are capable of it. And Cornelius is an example of one who did.
Seems to me that only someone who actually believed in God would recognize and honor God. Why would an unbeliever even want to do that?
Because unbelievers CAN believe in God. Cornelius is proof of that, along with Lydia. But, believing in God isn't salvific faith. Believing in the saving work of Christ on the cross is salvific faith.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 2:24:52 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Because unbelievers CAN believe in God. This doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to me that if an unbeliever believes then he's no longer an unbeliever but a believer.
quote:
Cornelius is proof of that, along with Lydia. But, believing in God isn't salvific faith. Believing in the saving work of Christ on the cross is salvific faith. So, I guess Cornelius and Lydia were destined for hell until they believed in the saving work of Christ on the cross. Too bad for all the people who believed in God but had the misfortune to live and die before the saving work of Christ on the cross took place. They didn't have anything saving to believe in.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 3:10:29 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
Cornelius is proof of that, along with Lydia. But, believing in God isn't salvific faith. Believing in the saving work of Christ on the cross is salvific faith. So, I guess Cornelius and Lydia were destined for hell until they believed in the saving work of Christ on the cross. Too bad for all the people who believed in God but had the misfortune to live and die before the saving work of Christ on the cross took place. They didn't have anything saving to believe in.
I think what FG means here is particularly Cornelius and Lydia - people that lived after the saving work of Christ was accomplished.
Those who lived in OT surely were saved by believing in Messiah and waiting for him. Sincere believers that prayed and worshipped God like Cornelius, Lydia and, sadly and unfortunately, my own sister would not be saved until they believe that Jesus is Messiah they waited for.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 3:13:02 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Look at them right before dunking - they look the same, they profess the same. What does a saved baptised by water person has that wet sinner doesnt ?What makes a difference ? I think what makes the difference is belief. A person who believes that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God will come out of the baptistry a saved person. A person who comes out of the baptistry a wet, unsaved, sinner obviously didn't believe before going in. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Sure, so we here we have two people that are about to go into the water. One of them believes, another just merely professes, without truly believing. So what does the water baptism adds then? It surely didn’t benefit an unbeliever…
What did it give the one who already believes?
Dear, GD, I am very interested in you answering this question , I will repost it :
quote:
GD: What I am suggesting, however, is the belief alone does not cause spiritual cleansing and regeneration. Certainly belief is required and people who believe are certainly saved, but not people who only believe and nothing else.
Odeliya: You do agree though that people that dont get water baptism for, lets say they had not time, there were no water, etc. - are not obtaining "substandard" salvation? God gives them the same cleansing and regeneration as he gives the people who got baptised by water, right?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 3:39:08 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Sure, so we here we have two people that are about to go into the water. One of them believes, another just merely professes, without truly believing. So what does the water baptism adds then? It surely didn’t benefit an unbeliever…
What did it give the one who already believes?
Odeliya: You do agree though that people that dont get water baptism for, lets say they had not time, there were no water, etc. - are not obtaining "substandard" salvation? God gives them the same cleansing and regeneration as he gives the people who got baptised by water, right?
Hello Odeliya!
If an adult, who believes, is getting baptized but already believing, there are benefits to getting baptized. For instance, in baptism you receive the remission of sins, and the indwelling Holy Spirit. So those are the 2 things that scripture talks about that are connected to baptism. Before baptism, a person cannot be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can work in that person's life, but not indwell them, until they have received the remission of sins through baptism.
About your last couple sentences. There is no excuse to not get baptized if you have no time. I would say you have to make time. About not having water. Well, if a person lived in an area with a scarce amount of water, they can use just a little bit of water and still be validly baptized. You don't have to be baptized in a full pull of water to be validly baptized.
And if a person truly believes, they will want to get baptized. I would question that person's "faith" if they didn't.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 4:34:47 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Those who lived in OT surely were saved by believing in Messiah and waiting for him. Sincere believers that prayed and worshipped God like Cornelius, Lydia and, sadly and unfortunately, my own sister would not be saved until they believe that Jesus is Messiah they waited for. So what makes Cornelius and Lydia different from those in the OT who were believing in Messiah and waiting for Him. Are we saying that Cornelius and Lydia didn't believe in Messiah and weren't waiting for Him? If so, how do we know that?
Actually, when Cornelius is described as "a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God" (Acts 10:2) I don't see any difference between him and an Old Testament believer. And yet we are told that he couldn't possibly have been saved.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 4:40:51 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Sure, so we here we have two people that are about to go into the water. One of them believes, another just merely professes, without truly believing. So what does the water baptism adds then? It surely didn’t benefit an unbeliever…
What did it give the one who already believes? Its not a matter of what the water baptism adds or accomplishes. It is a matter of what God is accomplishing during the water baptism. For the one who believes God promises that He will remit his sins and grant him the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38). For the unbeliever God will do nothing because he doesn't believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 4:49:11 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
You do agree though that people that dont get water baptism for, lets say they had not time, there were no water, etc. - are not obtaining "substandard" salvation? God gives them the same cleansing and regeneration as he gives the people who got baptised by water, right? If situations like that should occur, which I stongly doubt, then yes, I agree that they are not obtaining a "substandard" salvation. Yes, God gives them the same cleansing and regeneration as he gives the people who get baptized in water. However, their experiences should not be taught as the Biblical model for salvation, because nowhere in the New Testament is there a sinner becoming a Christian without being baptized in water. Whether you believe the Holy Spirit came before, during, or after, they were all baptized in water.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 4:49:28 PM
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JimboFletch
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Hi GD. Just stopped by to let you know I admire your tenacity and your gentle spirit in trying to get your POV across. I know one should not grow weary in well doing but I sometimes decide I'm tossing pearls and leave a topic. Anywhat, God bless you, brother.
[Edited to correct and error or twain]
< Message edited by JimboFletch -- 5/21/2008 4:56:21 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 4:52:08 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Sure, so we here we have two people that are about to go into the water. One of them believes, another just merely professes, without truly believing. So what does the water baptism adds then? It surely didn’t benefit an unbeliever…
What did it give the one who already believes? Its not a matter of what the water baptism adds or accomplishes. It is a matter of what God is accomplishing during the water baptism. For the one who believes God promises that He will remit his sins and grant him the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38). For the unbeliever God will do nothing because he doesn't believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
This is exactly my belief on baptism.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 7:04:15 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
For instance, in baptism you receive the remission of sins, and the indwelling Holy Spirit. So those are the 2 things that scripture talks about that are connected to baptism. Before baptism, a person cannot be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can work in that person's life, but not indwell them, until they have received the remission of sins through baptism.
I disagree totally and strongly. The position presented makes faith of no salvational value without work-water baptism. To say that the remission of sins and indwelling of the Holy spirit is impossible without water baptism is contradictory to salvation by faith alone.
If one truly believes he is saved at that moment in time. If he dies on his way to water baptism he dies a saved person, doesn't he? So the salvation ( remission of sins, indwelling of HS) can be, practically, accomplished without water baptism.
quote:
About your last couple sentences. There is no excuse to not get baptized if you have no time. I would say you have to make time. About not having water. Well, if a person lived in an area with a scarce amount of water, they can use just a little bit of water and still be validly baptized. You don't have to be baptized in a full pull of water to be validly baptized.
Amen, absolutely, it's just in reality people are and do get saved in the battlefield, on the death bed, on the airplane that will never make it to the ground(sept11, 3 flight) etc..
quote:
And if a person truly believes, they will want to get baptized. I would question that person's "faith" if they didn't. Amen! I actually said exactly the same thing a few pages back 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 7:13:58 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2057
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
You do agree though that people that dont get water baptism for, lets say they had not time, there were no water, etc. - are not obtaining "substandard" salvation? God gives them the same cleansing and regeneration as he gives the people who got baptised by water, right? If situations like that should occur, which I stongly doubt,
My pastor was present during a situation when a man became saved trapped in a car after the crash. Indian fellow, he was taught the gospel message thru the window, confessed his sins and was for all we can tell, saved. He died upon arrival in the ER from severe blood loss. Literal case. I am confident similar situations are not only possible, but do occur, even if not often.
quote:
then yes, I agree that they are not obtaining a "substandard" salvation. Yes, God gives them the same cleansing and regeneration as he gives the people who get baptized in water. However, their experiences should not be taught as the Biblical model for salvation, because nowhere in the New Testament is there a sinner becoming a Christian without being baptized in water. Whether you believe the Holy Spirit came before, during, or after, they were all baptized in water.
Then essentially nothing happens during the baptism. Salvation is or by faith alone or not, there is no middle ground in this...
As for teaching I am fully with you - it ought to be taught that baptism in water is an important step for anybody, not ot be avoided by no means!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 8:22:52 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Because unbelievers CAN believe in God. This doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to me that if an unbeliever believes then he's no longer an unbeliever but a believer.
Seems you are confused as to what the gospel is. It is [n]not believing in God for eternal life. It is believing in God's Son, Jesus Christ through His death on the cross on our behalf. John 3:16, 6:40.
quote:
quote:
Cornelius is proof of that, along with Lydia. But, believing in God isn't salvific faith. Believing in the saving work of Christ on the cross is salvific faith. So, I guess Cornelius and Lydia were destined for hell until they believed in the saving work of Christ on the cross.
Everyone born is condemned to hell. John 3:18, 36.
quote:
Too bad for all the people who believed in God but had the misfortune to live and die before the saving work of Christ on the cross took place. They didn't have anything saving to believe in.
I wish you were kidding, but I know you really don't know about this. What does Acts 10:43 mean to you? All the OT prophets knew that forgiveness was through faith in Him.
Also, what does Rom 4:13 mean to you, and especially, Heb 11:24-26?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 8:25:15 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1077
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Then essentially nothing happens during the baptism. Salvation is or by faith alone or not, there is no middle ground in this... Certainly salvation is by faith. I even had an experience similar to your pastor's. A lady who attended the church I preached at could never get her husband to come to church with her. I visited him myself on a number of occasions, but he was adamant. When he was in the hospital on his deathbed, as I spoke to him about where he might spend eternity, he repented of his sins, asked Jesus into his life, and I believe he was saved. But that doesn't mean that I think that's the Biblical model for salvation. And I would never teach someone that just because this individual was saved without baptism that they can be too. As I said in a previous post, there are no sinners becoming Christians in the New Testament who are not baptized in water. It happens to all of them.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 8:30:54 PM
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