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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 8:53:04 AM
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JimboFletch
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Is there a difference?
I was born and raised in the Deep South. I went away for over 9 years for military service (part of which was in the South), then returned where I've lived since 1980. I love and live in the South.
I have a friend who was born and raised in Pennsylvania. About 20 years ago, he moved to the deep South to take a job. He loves and lives in the South.
Is there a difference? You betcha. ithout naming them all, there are a lot of cultural practices and foods that are part of my nature which are and probably always be a little strange to him.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 9:33:57 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Is there a difference?
I was born and raised in the Deep South. I went away for over 9 years for military service (part of which was in the South), then returned where I've lived since 1980. I love and live in the South.
I have a friend who was born and raised in Pennsylvania. About 20 years ago, he moved to the deep South to take a job. He loves and lives in the South.
Is there a difference? You betcha. ithout naming them all, there are a lot of cultural practices and foods that are part of my nature which are and probably always be a little strange to him.
This is a good analogy.
To be Messianic is to be Christian, it's just a different way of getting there.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 10:13:28 AM
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JimboFletch
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I meant that I think Messianic is more cultural. If I were born and raised a Jew, then became a believer, I'll be able to transition into a Messianic fellowship quite well. As a Gentile, I could join Messianic fellowship, but it would be a completely new culture and experience for me.
I think...
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 10:33:11 AM
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Lapidoth
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I think that the "Messianic Movement" is strange to
both Jews and Christians.
What we have in this area isn't close to Orthodox from what I am told.
So, someone from an Orthodox background isn't any more comfortable
with it than a Baptist. Or, any Christian background.
quote:
Let me start by saying that "Messianic" comes from the Hebrew Mashiach (Annointed One) and "Christian" comes from the Greek translation of that word Christos (also Annointed One).
So a "christian" is a follower of the Annointed One.
And a "messianic" is a follower of the Annointed One.
Is there a difference?
I think I can take a mindset from Nehemiah Gordon in that
there is the "Greek Jesus," and the "Hebrew Yeshua."
These are two entirely different presentations of the same One.
"Will the real Jesus please stand up?!"
Are you old enough to remember that television program? lol.
The "Hebrew Yeshua" is the "real" deal.
And He can only become known by the understanding of the "Hebrew Scriptures."
Technically, a 'christos' and moshiach would be the same.
English = Anointed.
Greek and Hebrew words for that English word, christos and moshiach.
We can group ourselves together, but we're not the same.
No two of us are the same. Jesus would tell all of us, regardless, "Ye must be born again."
Many orthodox Jews are just as mis-informed of the Holy Scriptures
as the Greek Gentiles {christisans} are. By our traditions and cultures.
I'll have to quit, I'm starting to confuse myself. LOL.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 10:35:27 AM
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Lapidoth
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I think this is a good thread Dave.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 10:42:56 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I meant that I think Messianic is more cultural. If I were born and raised a Jew, then became a believer, I'll be able to transition into a Messianic fellowship quite well. As a Gentile, I could join Messianic fellowship, but it would be a completely new culture and experience for me.
I think...
As someone who is/was not Jewish, but attended a Messianic congregation, I can concur with this.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 12:59:56 PM
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TheoJunkie
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quote:
Is there a difference?
That depends on whether they both affirm the same Gospel.
In other words, "being a follower of Jesus" can mean many different things. (And I note, I am making an assumption that "the Annointed One" is understood universally to be the one and only Jesus of Nazareth... Just "who" is thought of as "the Annointed One" factors in as well. Has the Annointed One come? Or is he yet to come? And he is Annointed-- but what does that mean, exactly? And more importantly, what does that mean personally to the believer in question? Why does his "being Annointed" even matter "to me"?)
The Dalai Lama probably is a "follower of Jesus". But he-- insofar as his public admission would suggest-- does not have faith in Jesus as The truth, The life, and The way, trusting in Christ's work on his behalf as his only hope of being found acceptable to God. Anyone-- even an atheist-- who "has respect for" Jesus as a "good example" could be called a "follower of Jesus". This phrase alone is therefore meaningless.
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 3/25/2008 1:14:56 PM >
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 1:37:22 PM
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Odeliya
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many excellent points been presented so far…
All Messianics are Christians in a sense that they believe in Christ.
All Christians are Messianics in a sense that they believe that Christ is the Messiah.
They both believe the same message about Christ.
But I personally am with Ps103’s jewish friends on this and use “Messianic”, to avoid confusion, as a denomination name only. There are ethnic jews and non-jews in it, and even people that werent born or officially converted into Judaism prior to becoming MC.
A few Messianic churches I visited were incredibly wonderful , adn I know MC believers that show tons of fruit of the Holy Spirit,look at Dave. Love you brothers!!
Some.. well. yes, “Mess” part of their name they definitely got mastered ;)
As in any denom there are good and bad M churches. But we all, Christians and Messianics, are family.
Problems only arise when someone gets into, as PS wisely said, attitude of ” I am holier then thou for I am a____( enter denom. name here)” and thinks that the "right"( in his opinion) sign on a church door is a guarantee of salvation. Then I pull out my volunteer “Anti - Religious Elitism Police Unit” badge and start kicking donkeys of all who denies/belittles his brothers for whom Christ died.Mercilessly. 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/25/2008 3:00:44 PM
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cybrjewls
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We are One in the faith in Christ Jesus. Also, the practices of the Judean Messiaic movement would, of course, tend to include the feasts that are written by prophecy known about in the law of Moses. The ways of the Judean people are different, in many respects. For God has entrusted His Holy Scriptures of the Prophets and Apostles to their people. They were called of God to bear the fruit of the Kingdom of God through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ the Annointed Messiah that is written about in Daniel. For Daniel tells us that the angel of The Lord gives the prophecy for the date when the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing. This was entrusted to the Judean people from long ago so that they would be able to ascertain what The Truth is regarding The Messiah, when the time comes.
We see that the destruction of The Temple of God has occurred, as it is written, and that the Annointed One was to come before that occurrence.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
OR - how is a "messianic" different from a "christian?" Are they different?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
Same with any Jew converted to Catholicism/ or becoming a member of a Baptist Church- he is messianic in a sense that you mentioned ,Carl, yet, neither is Messianic by denom. affiliation.
That is how it is with all of the Jewish people I know who have become Christians--they consider themselves to be Christians and do not refer to themselves as Messianics--they consider that to be a denomination. Although in a sense, they *are* Messianic, like you said.
I wish someone would start a thread on Messianics so this thread could get back to "What is a Protestant?"
(That was a hint, in case you all were wondering  ) LOL!!!
This is being broken off of the "What is a Protestant" thread per Mod request.
Let me start by saying that "Messianic" comes from the Hebrew Mashiach (Annointed One) and "Christian" comes from the Greek translation of that word Christos (also Annointed One).
So a "christian" is a follower of the Annointed One.
And a "messianic" is a follower of the Annointed One.
Is there a difference?
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/27/2008 3:02:19 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
Dave, I think it's great that Jews are becoming Christians and that Christians are becoming more aware of their Hebraic roots. According to what I know (I have only done little research so correct me if i'm wrong), the Messianic Judaism movement originated in the 19th century and its body is not ecclesially joined to the original church of Jerusalem (I mean not in communion). Therefore I would say yes, I consider it protestant by this definition, especially since it has greater ties to the protestant churches and is close in doctrine to them as well. I am only speaking as a lay person and I have no authority to make any such determinations so take it as such. I think the difference may be in the way 'church' is defined and what is meant by 'faith', for the Orthodox, we take the historic approach, as I mentioned, but the Protestants take the approach of invisible church. Saint James the Just is venerated in the Orthodox church as the first bishop of Jerusalem and that church still exists today, here is a page of its history i found:
http://www.gopoj.org/HistoryofPatriarchate.html
(There is a lot of inherent 'jewishness' in the OC, but I think you already know this.) Interesting history.
What is left off is the fact that what came back to Jerusalem following the 135 Bar Kochba revolt bore more resemblance to the Greek speaking churches of the Diaspora that Paul founded than the thorughly Jewish congregation in Jerusalem under James prior to 70 ad. That was carried on in the so-called Sect of the Nazorean congregations in Galilee. A major break in continuity.
These same congregations were excluded from the Nicean council of 325, where they were declared heretics. They died out in the early 400s ad. Another break in continuity. And Yes, God saw fit to bring it back in the late 19th century; arising out of the Jewish community and not traditional christianity of any stripe.
Yes, the EOC has certainly held to more of the Jewish roots than the RCC, and seems to have less antisemitism; although it certainly is not totally free of it. I find it VERY INTERESTING that Paul writes to Church at Rome (in romans 11) which was a major purveyor of antisemitism to NOT BE ARROGANT against the natural branches - the pre-believing Jews. Did he see something from the future? Perhaps.
Yes we have a lot of "protestant" doctrines. No, We do not have an unbroken ecclesiastical string going back 2000 years. What we do have is a soverign move of God from within the Jewish community to restore His Chosen people to Himself. We also see the need for a true restoration of fellowship between the opposing camps. Please read the booklets and articles at the Toward Jerusalem Council 2 website for our efforts that way.
http://www.tjcii.org/toward-jerusalem-council-ii-booklet-series.htm
http://www.tjcii.org/toward-jerusalem-council-ii-articles.htm
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/28/2008 2:13:22 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
So a "christian" is a follower of the Annointed One.
And a "messianic" is a follower of the Annointed One.
Is there a difference?
There is indeed. You left out a key element. The proper definition of a Messianic would be "a follower of the Anointed One + a follower of the Law of Moses". Whether or not that is acceptable to God is something that needs to be properly addressed.
quote:
And he is Annointed-- but what does that mean, exactly?
TJ:
Oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit, so the Anointed One was continuously filled with, and empowered by the Holy Spirit, as no man ever was or will be. Christ was not only the Sinless One but He was also the Sent One. Therefore the Holy Spirit was given to Him "without measure", and this is described in Isaiah 61:1-3 (cf. Lk. 4:18,19):
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me: BECAUSE THE LORD HATH ANOINTED ME to preach good tidings unto the meek: He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound:
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He might be glorified."
This was and is the ministry of Christ, and the reason for His anointing.
quote:
And more importantly, what does that mean personally to the believer in question? Why does his "being Annointed" even matter "to me"?)
What it means to us is that we too can be filled with the Spirit by God's grace, and do the things that God has called us to do by His power. That is because the Anointed One lives within every believer.
There is absolutely no difference between Christos and Maschiach. They both mean "the Anointed One". To pretend that the Greek is not good enough for God is simply laughable. It is He who chose to give us a Greek New Testament.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 3/28/2008 2:23:18 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/30/2008 2:31:51 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
So a "christian" is a follower of the Annointed One.
And a "messianic" is a follower of the Annointed One.
Is there a difference?
There is indeed. You left out a key element. The proper definition of a Messianic would be "a follower of the Anointed One + a follower of the Law of Moses". Whether or not that is acceptable to God is something that needs to be properly addressed.
The early "Messianics" would have been the Judean community under James. The sect of the Nazarenes were labeled as heretics by the early church fathers because they continued to live according to the holy, just, and good commandments of God (Romans 7:12; Psalm 119). These were people who continued to live as our Master taught! These believers were of the sect of the Nazarenes and their roots went all the way back to Jerusalem before the Temple was destroyed. In Acts 21, we see that there were at least 20,000+ (myriads - plural) of these people who were zealous for the Law - just like King David. That was pretty significant, for I hear that the population of Jerusalem in those days was about 125,000.
The political situation in the Roman Empire and the Gentile church after the Jewish revolts of 70 C.E. and 135 C.E. caused these people to be alienated from the Gentile communities. These people were also alienated from their apostate Jewish brothers because of their faith and for refusing to help in the fight against Rome in 135 C.E. (Rabbi Akiva had declared the military commander to be the messiah and the Nazarenes would not fight under the banner of a false messiah).
So, they were left without friends in the world. Their Gentile brothers had adopted doctrines that rejected portions of the Torah of Moses to avoid the persecution of the Roman Empire who had outlawed the Torah and Sabbath observance. And, the apostate Jews added prayers to the synagogue liturgy that denounced the faith of our Master. So, any believing Jews who sought inclusion in the greater Jewish communities was found out when they refused to pray that prayer in the synagogue. It must have been terrible to be so rejected.
Our Master had warned His followers that they would be hated. :(
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 1:47:23 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
You left out a key element. The proper definition of a Messianic would be "a follower of the Anointed One + a follower of the Law of Moses". Whether or not that is acceptable to God is something that needs to be properly addressed. I know some "messianics" who do not follow the Law of Moses in any way shape or form. I know others that Jewish ritualism and rabbinic observance is almost considered their salvation. Most do not fall in either category.
Addressing whether or not Torah observance should be required and of whom and why needs to stay in its one-stop thread. That is not what this thread is about.
However, it is true that most messianics maintain some level of Torah observance. That is not in dispute. Whether that should be part of what defines a Messianic is fair game.
I would submit that it is not part of the definition because there are "legalistic" christian groups that also follow things out of the Law of Moses as well, maybe more than the Messianics.
Edited to add: It seems that maybe some would like to throw this statement into the mix to discredit and write off messianics as legalistic or in error without ever addressing a specific issue. I find that tactic disingenuous.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 3/31/2008 1:56:01 PM >
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 2:56:36 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Edited to add: It seems that maybe some would like to throw this statement into the mix to discredit and write off messianics as legalistic or in error without ever addressing a specific issue. I find that tactic disingenuous.
Yeah, I think that you're right. I also think that many people, perhaps most, don't even understand what "legalistic" means. I've found the article, "Legalism: Some Thoughts" at
http://www.torahresource.com/ArticlesEnglish.html
to be very useful in understanding how to approach Torah as a Messianic.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 5:32:30 PM
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TheoJunkie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I've found the article, "Legalism: Some Thoughts" at
http://www.torahresource.com/ArticlesEnglish.html
If this author's conclusion represents the general "Messianic" approach to the law, then it is fair to say that Messianics (as a group / denomination / doctrinal body) are not legalistic.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 5:38:40 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I've found the article, "Legalism: Some Thoughts" at
http://www.torahresource.com/ArticlesEnglish.html
If this author's conclusion represents the general "Messianic" approach to the law, then it is fair to say that Messianics (as a group / denomination / doctrinal body) are not legalistic.
Thanks for saying that. :)
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 5:39:01 PM
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TheoJunkie
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So... what then is a "Messianic?" I'm getting a "vibe" that they want to be considered unique and different from other Christians, but also a vibe (and evidence thus far) that there is no substantial difference (other than the typical doctrinal disputes that mark any denomination). It seems that Messianics want to be identified as Messianics, but yet not. What's going on? Why the fuss? Why the question?
Is the only distinguishing mark found in the use of Hebrew for some terms, observance of feasts, and avoidance of using all letters in various words for God in print? "Ethnic Jew" can't be part of the equation, else people like Dave (a self-admitted Gentile by birth) couldn't call themselves Messianic.
Does saying "I'm Messianic" basically amount to saying "I'm Lutheran (or insert whatever here)"?
Question: Would a Messianic have communion at a Presbyterian church, or would they decline in quiet protest?
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 3/31/2008 5:49:04 PM >
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 6:35:37 PM
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Anisavta
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Here's my take on the whole thing.
I am a Jew by blood. I am a believer in Messiah.
Here is the problem.
As a Jew I feel (IMO) that I have been given the Temple service, and promises, the Torah, the Patriarches and the covenants and also the Messiah Ben David.
But because of all that, my non believing People want nothing do do with me because I believe in Yeshua as Messiah. My Christian people want nothing to do with me because I am Torah observant.
Jews want me to give up this Christian business and Christians want me to give up this Jewish business.
So what do I do?
I meet with others who are like minded. I am Messianic.
I go to a Messianic Synagogue and worship on Shabbat (Saturday). I wear headcovering. I read from a Sidur the same prayers that Yeshua and the Apostles prayed. I touch the Torah scroll during the Torah processional. I am learning to read from the Torah scroll in Hebrew. I believe in circumcision for JEWISH males (not Gentile unless they CHOOSE to). I follow a Hebrew calendar for feasts and festivals not the Christian one for holidays. I eat kosher.
I am branded as legalistic in the Christain world. I am branded as a non Jew in the Jewish world.
In my synagogue there are Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles choose to follow Jewish ways. No one is converted. They choose to be Messianic by association.
And here is the bottom line and please hear me loud and clear. Salvation is only thru the blood of Yeshua (which means salvation). I am not saved by following any laws. I follow Torah because I am saved to do so out of love.
So I am Messianic because I follow Messiah and I am Jewish. Christians are Christians because they follow Christ. Both the same in salvation. Different in how we worship.
< Message edited by Anisavta -- 3/31/2008 6:42:13 PM >
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 3/31/2008 7:13:05 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
So... what then is a "Messianic?" I'm getting a "vibe" that they want to be considered unique and different from other Christians, but also a vibe (and evidence thus far) that there is no substantial difference (other than the typical doctrinal disputes that mark any denomination). It seems that Messianics want to be identified as Messianics, but yet not. What's going on? Why the fuss? Why the question?
Is the only distinguishing mark found in the use of Hebrew for some terms, observance of feasts, and avoidance of using all letters in various words for God in print?
Does saying "I'm Messianic" basically amount to saying "I'm Lutheran (or insert whatever here)"?
Question: Would a Messianic have communion at a Presbyterian church, or would they decline in quiet protest?
If I were to visit your congregation I wouldn't partake in communion because I believe in having communion at the Passover Feast.
I can't answer for all Messianics, as it is more of a movement than a denomination. I often identify myself as someone in the Hebrew Roots movement or simply as a Christian who practices Judaism. :)
I'll say what I personally believe, but I ask those reading this to not start some debate on the Law of God. This is not the topic for that.
I don't consider myself unique or different from my brothers and sisters in Him. I believe in following all of His Torah because I think that they are His commandments. Others believe in following all of His commandments too, but they have a different idea than I do as to what those commandments actually are. Most of my brothers in Him don't see some of the commandments as being important and I fully understand. I used to believe the same things as them. Now that I believe that we are to keep absolutely all of the commandments of God.
I am a child of God, like all others, by His grace alone. However, we all have to keep His commandments because those are the household rules. In Matthew 5:19, I see that people who break the least of His commandments and teach others to do the same will STILL be in His Kingdom! When I read about the kings I see God talking about many of them, David included, who did what was right in His eyes (e.g. David - 1 Kings 15:5; Joash - 2Ch 24:2; Uzziah - 2Ch 26:4; Jotham - 2Ch 27:2; Hezekiah - 2Ch 29:2) though we know that they weren't doing all His commandments. This is made apparently clear when the life of King Josiah is talked about. King Josiah kept more of God's commandments than David did and God makes mention of it. Though King David is a hero of our faith, King Josiah is the better example. | | | |
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