RE: What is a "Messianic?" (Full Version)

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iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 3:46:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Yeah I am familiar with them.

IMO, BIG mistake excluding them from the Nicean council of 325.

Indeed, but a natural course of action for the Greek-minded early church fathers who had, by the fourth century, completed their divorce from the Hebraic-mindset.

There is a really interesting article called, "My Big Fat Greek Mindset" at:

http://www.torahresource.com/ArticlesEnglish.html

I would strongly recommend it to anyone. I have the complete study, of which this is a summary, and it is wonderful. Here is a synopsis from the author, "These summary articles show the difference between the Greek Worldview and the Hebraic Worldview and how this effects the way we understand and apply the Scriptures to our everyday lives."



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 9:07:21 PM)

Hmmm...

Would you suggest that Paul was divorced from "the Hebraic mindset"? He fits right in with "my greek mind". Does this mean Paul's writings are illegitimate and uninspired? I hope my hyperbole is just that.

And I have to say, the other "real Apostles" are pretty clear too. Even James and Peter. And none of them (including Paul) say anything that contradicts all those "hebraic minded" saints from the Old Testament.

I also question why "the Hebraic mindset" is to be held inherently superior to "the Greek mindset." It seems to me that if "the Hebraic mindset" results in a superior understanding of and application of Scriptures, then we should not have seen this:

Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38See, your house is left to you desolate.

No, rather, I suggest that there is no such thing as a "Hebraic mindset". There is only "for God" and "against God."

And while I would not suggest that "they" should have been excluded from the Nicean council if they were, when such talk is made concerning superior thought and "big mistakes"... well, that doesn't sound very brotherly, does it.

So what is it then... are Messianics the True Church, all else be damned? Or not?

Really irks me when the conversation goes this direction. Perhaps not all Messianics think themselves so wonderfully endowed, and perhaps that is not the intent of the verbiage. (In passing, I note that it is not the born-Jews who talk like this, but the gentile-converts... at least in the immediate experience of this thread.)

But I do hope you see that if you drive wedges you can't really come back and complain when people think you are different. If you set yourself apart, then that's what you'll get.

I wonder if the folks in the 4th century were not invited because they kept promoting "the hebraic mindset" as the only legitimate ticket.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 9:19:21 PM)

TheoJunkie: Please read that article I linked if you're interested in understanding what I'm talking about. You seem to be upset and some of your comments seemed rude to me, so I'm not interested in speaking with you about this now.



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 6:42:55 AM)

iSaJ,

Nor I with you, apparently. You are correct that I'm upset.

Dave, and now you apparently, have this "thing" about setting "hebrew" (or "eastern") thinking over against "greek" ("western") thinking, clearly setting "hebrew" thinking as superior to "western" thinking (or "logic", as your article gets into).

The opening volley of your article is to poke fun at the silly sea captain who demands that the lighthouse get out of his way. I'm pretty sure the article is NOT suggesting that the silly sea captain has his hebraic thinking cap on. Correct me if I'm wrong... I thought I got the point that the captain is silly, but then, I have a big fat greek mind.

Your article says this:

quote:

Only when the revealed truth of God enlightens our hearts and minds are we able to see things
from God’s perspective—to see things as they truly are.


While it is true that Scripture is given that we may see the truth, that's not the end of the story:

Only when the God enlightens our hearts and minds are we able to see Scripture from God’s perspective—to see Scripture as it truly is.

Understanding the Kingdom of God is not about putting on your hebraic thinking cap. Western logic does not result in driving your boat into a lighthouse. It is about this:

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Those that have the Spirit, understand the Scripture. And only those that have the Spirit understand the Scripture. It isn't "hebrew" vs "greek". It is "flesh" vs. "Spirit." And the Spirit wins.

You say I have been rude. Well, I consider your remarks the same way. To your credit, at least you do provide your article to show what you mean, unlike Dave who seems to take cryptic potshots without explanation. Unlike a discussion of doctrine, when you start talking about thinking patterns, you are talking about a person's NATURE. And we all know that a leopard cannot change its spots. When you start talking about a person's nature, then you have crossed the line from disagreement and education into an "ism" (naturism, if that was a word... akin to racism).

Before I unsubscribe, I will say this last thing (lest people misunderstand just what it is I am against here): I have no real problem with "Messianic Christianity". I'm sure I will disagree with some of the theological tenets, but I'm not out to suggest Messianics aren't Christian. And by the way... disagreement does not translate into anti-Semitism (or even anti-Hebrew-Convertism). My problem is when you (or anyone) starts to suggest that unless a person think by the same patterns as you, then that person cannot come to the truth. Because that is akin to saying that only you and folk like you can be saved.

So, though you might write me off as a jerk, I would encourage you to-- when you next converse with some big fat greek minded fool-- that you simply try to educate him as to the proper understanding of scripture (per the way you see it), and also listen to what he has to say. But don't tell him he'll never understand unless he becomes hebrew, or tell him that Augustine was deluded by Plato. The fact is, you and he both WILL understand by the Spirit of God... If "box logic" is what God ordained, then all the sheep will come around. But if "box logic" is the only right logic, it isn't because the Hebrews came up with it, but because God uses it. (AND, if there are any big fat greeks that are saved, it must be because they are thinking by the Spirit according to the one true logic of God-- whatever label is slapped on it).

Toodles.



stellaluna -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 10:02:16 AM)

I fail to understand why anyone would be upset in this thread, or why anyone would care whether Messianics keep the law, or part of it.

Messianics are Christian. Period. Choosing to keep kosher, for example, or celebrate the feasts or whatever does not change their belief that salvation comes through Christ (Yeshua) only.



Ps103 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 10:45:12 AM)

Stella--read John's post right above yours.

No one thinks Messianics are not Christians.

What is being objected to is that *only* Messianics are the "right kind" of Christians, and that if the rest of us knew what was good for us, we would be too.[;)]



stellaluna -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 10:57:49 AM)

Thank you, I had trouble following that post, so I skipped over most of it. [:)]

I am unfamiliar with that kind of thinking on the part of Messianics. (And I've had a lot of experience with them over a long period of time.)



Ps103 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 12:01:20 PM)

I am hoping that thinking comes from a small faction[;)]



bob97 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 2:07:52 PM)

quote:

Messianics are the "right kind" of Christians


I think you have taken iSERVE out of context... I for one am quite sure that is not what he is saying.

We are all one in Christ but I will say that the Messianic might see scripture a little differently based upon their background.

Bob



bob97 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 2:13:44 PM)

I would also add that from what little study of Jewish tradition I have undertaken that there is a lot for the gentile Christian to learn from their insight.

Bob



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 2:18:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

I would also add that from what little study of Jewish tradition I have undertaken that there is a lot for the gentile Christian to learn from their insight.

Bob

Those are wise words. In the days of Paul there was already a problem of Gentile pride (Romans 11). Just think of how bad it got over the next few hundred years! You can see their pride clearly in the writings of the early church fathers. By the fourth century they were calling people like me heretics because we simply walked as our Master and His Apostles walked - in obedience to His Torah.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 2:25:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

Thank you, I had trouble following that post, so I skipped over most of it. [:)]

I am unfamiliar with that kind of thinking on the part of Messianics. (And I've had a lot of experience with them over a long period of time.)

Most Messianics are just like Pentecostals, Baptists, etc except they embrace the Torah as a "cultural expression". For many years I walked like that - thinking that His Torah was optional and I was free to embrace its beauty if I wanted. Almost three years ago I came to realise that Torah is for everyone and I began to embrace it fully.

The way I arrived at this conclusion was through a very careful examination of the Heb. ger in the Torah. This is the non-Jew who is different than all the other non-Jews because he lives with the Jews. Once I understood that it was a "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt (Exodus 12:38) that accepted the Torah (not just Jews) and that the Torah contains many commands that they are to obey Torah in the same way (Numbers 15:14-16) I was able to accept this truth. Torah is for all His covenant people.



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 2:39:11 PM)

quote:

What is being objected to is that *only* Messianics are the "right kind" of Christians, and that if the rest of us knew what was good for us, we would be too.


But if you feel that way about Messianics you would have to take issue with anyone you do not agree with. Baptists feel that once saved always saved is the way to go. Penticostals think we should all speak in tongues. Catholics think Mary is up there on the Top 3 list. It goes on and on. If you are getting offended - stick to your own brand of denomination. You are arguing just as hot and heavy that your "way" is the right way too. How would you like us to react? "OK you win we will give up what we firmly believe and believe the way you want us to?" If you don't agree - you don't agree. If we don't agree - then we don't agree.
You are on a thread that says,"What is a Messianic". We are trying to tell you what one is. Unfortunatly those who are not Messianics come on here and try to set us straight. Can we not defend our beliefs?



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 3:35:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anisavta
If you don't agree - you don't agree. If we don't agree - then we don't agree.
You are on a thread that says,"What is a Messianic". We are trying to tell you what one is. Unfortunatly those who are not Messianics come on here and try to set us straight. Can we not defend our beliefs?


The crowd applauds and loudly proclaims, "Brava! Brava!"



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 4:06:20 PM)

...Last post...

Marsha,

As I stated in my other two posts, I have no problem with disagreeing on teachings and doctrinal points. That's part of learning.

My complaint is very specific and narrow... and deals only with the suggestion that "western thinking" is inferior to "eastern thinking", even to the point of suggesting that when one approaches the bible with a "western mind" it is tantamount to vanity.

Please note the distinction between the concepts of "doctrine/practice" and "thinking/logic". They are completely different issues. I'm not talking about "doctrine/practice."

That is the start and end of my complaint. It's a serious one though.

Also, as I mentioned, I have NOT observed that the "superior thinking" promotion issue comes from "Messianics" generally. On the contrary, I have observed these statements from only two individuals, and they (interestingly) are self-admited gentile converts to Messianic Judaism from "western Christianity." In contrast, the Jewish people who have come to Christ out of Judiasm, in my experience in this forum (both on this thread and elsewhere-- yourself included) have not felt the need to promote "eastern thinking" over "western thinking" as the only real way to approach the bible.

Therefore... I am operating under the assumption that making a value distinction between "western" and "eastern" modes of thinking and whether one can understand the Bible if one is has "Big Fat Western Mind" is NOT part of the definition of "what is a Messianic." If that is part of "what is a Messianic", then I will be both surprised and disappointed... but I do not see that to be the case at the moment.



LBolt -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 4:16:57 PM)

TheoJunkie, remember it was "easterners" or people of middle eastern descent who wrote the Bible under YHWH's inspiration, do you think they would have thought like a westerner? Westerners tend to think linear, easterner think circular or more of a box logic. I don't have time to further explain but there are vast differences which is why Messianics tend to view scripture differently than mainstream Christiandom.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 4:26:01 PM)

For those who are joining late, he was referring to these two articles that show the difference between the Greek Worldview and the Hebraic Worldview and how this effects the way we understand and apply the Scriptures to our everyday lives. I think it is really important to be able to see Scripture through Jewish eyes since it is full of Jewish ideas and written almost exclusively by Jews.

My Big Fat Greek Mindset, Part 1
My Big Fat Greek Mindset, Part 2

If you're interested in reading more from this teacher you can find a lot of good teaching at:

http://www.torahresource.com



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 4:51:31 PM)

Thanks Theo!
You are one of the bright spots on this thread about knowing how to agree to disagree.
Here's my take on the Hebraic vrs Greek thinking.
Hebraic thinking goes something like this: "#1 has an opinion about something - I agree. #2 has an opinion that differs from #1 - I agree." Wait you can't agree with both. But Hebraic thought goes layer upon layer. On the first layer I disagree, on the second layer I disagree but on the third layer I agree. Clear as mud? [;)] Hebraic thought takes an idea and looks behind and what everyone else thru the ages has thought about it and then adds another thought upon it. That's how all the Jews think. Everyone can be wrong and everyone can be right depending on what layer you are working from. If you read Job with that Hebraic thought it makes much more sense when the friends are giving Job their advice. Hebraic thought takes everything into the mix. This makes sense - this does not but they are both worth keeping.
Greek thinking goes something like this: #1 has an opinion - I agree. #2 has an opinion - it doesn't make sense to me I disagree. I keep #1 and throw out #2. End of discussion. I'm right you're wrong. And this is how most Christian seminaries teach the Scriptures. This makes sense to me I keep it. If it doesn't make sense to me I throw it out. There are lots of scripture passages that in a Greek mindset contradict each other. So what do we do? We make up doctrines and churches that fit our dogma. Calvinism and Arminiasim, Penticostal and Holiness.
The translators of the Greek text had three english words to choose from when translating the Greek word de - but, and or also. Most every de is translated but or contrasting. This is bad - this is good, that was before - this is now. However in context with the full thought of the author, most des should have been translated not in a Greek mindset but a Hebraic mindset (because all of the authors were Jews) so instead of but (contrast) it should be and or also (comparison) ie "that was good - this is better" not a throw the old box of cereal out and give me the new and improved, but eat both. Again clear as mud?
It is not a matter of you think wrong I think right. It is a matter of we westerners have been taught this from when the Jews were kicked out of the Church yea many years ago. Instead of taking a look at how we have been taught, it is too uncomfortable to step back and take a second look. When I go to Israel, my Western/Greek mindset goes out the window very fast if I want to survive.[;)]



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 5:43:22 PM)

... Ok, no more predictions from me about when my last post will be [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

TheoJunkie, remember it was "easterners" or people of middle eastern descent who wrote the Bible under YHWH's inspiration, do you think they would have thought like a westerner? Westerners tend to think linear, easterner think circular or more of a box logic. I don't have time to further explain but there are vast differences which is why Messianics tend to view scripture differently than mainstream Christiandom.


The key phrase is, "under YHWH's inspiration." ...This same YHWH who planned from all eternity to bring salvation to the whole world... and therefore planned to make His Scripture understandable by the whole world.

Therefore, while it may very well be that there are differences in thought patterns between cultures (and sure enough even my wife approaches things differently than me, so why not between cultures)... and while it is certainly true that God preserved the personalities of his chosen authors in the text of Scripture... the bottom line is, God wanted his Word to be understandable by the whole world, and so... IT IS.

This means one of three things: Either 1) logic is irrelevant to the understanding of scripture (unlikely), or 2) there is no real difference between "box logic" and "linear logic" (i.e., the alleged distinction is bogus)... or 3) the Holy Spirit is indeed the only real ticket for anyone to have a snowball's chance of understanding scripture (which, according to scripture, is the case).

But again, I am not complaining about differences. I'm complaining about claims of superiority and ineffectiveness regarding the alleged differences.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 5:49:59 PM)

The base message that we are sinners and we need His redemption is easily understood. However, if you think that the rest is easily understood I'll remind you of the thousands of different Christians groups all thinking they're right. There is the most correct understanding of the Bible as a whole and there are thousands of variations. He is the teacher of the most correct understanding and He is a Jew who used Jewish authors to write about Jewish stuff two thousand years ago. We need to walk in His sandals if we want to understand how to keep the least of His commandments - that way we can know how to properly live them and teach others (Matthew 5:19).



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 6:37:26 PM)

Marsha

quote:

It is not a matter of you think wrong I think right.


I agree, and that is precisely my point. The only thing that matters in the end, is that you accept everthing that Scripture reveals... NOT how you got there.

It's fine to go to scripture with a "hebraic mindset"... and it is fine to go to scripture with a "greek mindset"... as long as none of scripture is thrown out.

Contrary to the suggestions of certain individuals on this thread, it is possible for a "greek" to reconcile all of scripture-- even according to "greek logic".

You said that parts of scripture are contradictory to a greek mind. Actually, this is not the case.

I, for example, have no logical problems with any passage of scripture. Scripture tells me to pursue holiness, so I do. Scripture tells me I have been saved by grace through faith and not by my works, so I rest in that. These are not contradictory to me-- in other words, they are perfectly logical within so-called "western logic."

I think the bottom line is, if people have a problem with a certain part of scripture, that is not because of their "logic" or mode of thinking... it is a personal heart problem. People who reject parts of scripture reject it simply because they don't want to hear it. They might claim it is contradiction, but in reality they just don't like what it says there.

Now, a lot of your post deals with how we approach differing human opinions (what we make of two people's interpretations of scripture). Again, fair enough... but this is not the same thing as what we make of scripture itself.

Scripture says what it says, regardless of people's opinions of it-- right? Or do you believe that scripture says whatever people happen to say it says?

In other words-- God said what God said, regardless of whether anybody at all agrees or understands it-- right? Or is Truth whatever people say it is? If two people look at "Thou shall not have any other gods before Me" and one person says it means "Only worship YHWH" and the other says it means "Everybody must worship this golden calf"... is one of them wrong, or are both of them right?

I hope you would affirm the former. If you affirm the latter, I disagree, but fair enough for the purposes of this conversation.

But here is a similar question:

Let's say three people are looking at a chair. One person says "it is on the floor", and the other person says "it is not on the floor", and the third person says "it does not exist." Per hebraic thought (as you described above), it would seem possible for all three persons to be absolutely correct in their statements simultaneously in the same sense and from the same reference point.

So here's the question: Does hebraic thinking allow for me ALSO to be "right" in saying that only one of the three people is correct? Or am I the only one who is wrong? And why?



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 7:09:09 PM)

I've created a thread to discuss who the historical Nazarenes were. Please, join me if you're interested.

http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_3271380/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3271469



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 7:15:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW

The base message that we are sinners and we need His redemption is easily understood. However, if you think that the rest is easily understood I'll remind you of the thousands of different Christians groups all thinking they're right. There is the most correct understanding of the Bible as a whole and there are thousands of variations. He is the teacher of the most correct understanding and He is a Jew who used Jewish authors to write about Jewish stuff two thousand years ago. We need to walk in His sandals if we want to understand how to keep the least of His commandments - that way we can know how to properly live them and teach others (Matthew 5:19).


I didn't say that the rest is "easily understood". I said rather that it 1) requires the Holy Spirit to understand, and 2) does not require "hebraic" (or any particular type of) thought pattern to understand.

Proper exegesis of scripture indeed does require not only consideration of the textual context, but also diligent consideration to the historical and cultural context associated with any given passage. But this is not the same as requiring a "hebraic mindset" or throwing out "greek logic".

I am not here to argue about Matthew 5:19 means or what "properly" following Jesus entails.

However, while your understanding of that passage may be part of "what is a Messianic"... and while your understanding of that passge may very well be the correct understanding... If I ever come to the same understanding as you on that passage, it will not be because I finally dumped my big fat greek mindset and put on my hebraic thinking cap... but rather, because the Holy Spirit who guides all believers into all truth has directed me to that understanding. Put another way, your understanding of Matthew 5:19 is not "contradictory" under "western" logic. If I disagree with it, it is simply because I just don't agree with it.



Odeliya -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 7:33:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
I finally dumped my big fat greek mindset and put on my hebraic thinking cap...


[:)] trying to imagine our Emu with yarmulke ...



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/2/2008 7:56:34 PM)

quote:

trying to imagine our Emu with yarmulke ...


Actually, I usually sit around the house wearing a football helmet covered in aluminum foil so that the space aliens can't hear my thoughts and use them against me....


[8D]



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