|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/26/2008 5:34:33 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 353
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
prophetica,
First of all I don't believe that scripture teaches a first resurrection then another. The scripture you provide say the resurrection not first resurrection. Second only full preterist believe that the resurrection has already taken place and from that I know of what they believe they don't believe a physical resurrection has already taken place but a spiritual one.
On book I can suggest to all is Revelation Four Views A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg.
I think what people fail to realize is that there are four main views: Historicist, Preterist, Futurist, and Spiritual.
Each view has sub-views. Futurist has Pre-Millennial, Millennial, Post-Millennial, Pre-Wrath, Post-Wrath., etc.
Also I believe that dispensationalist are mistaken but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are heretics and hell bound.
Child4Jesus,
At my last church, I used the book you recommended as my main source (right after the Bible) to teach the four views of revelation. It is an excellent resource. Studying the four views made at least one thing stand out... there is some truth in each of the four views.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/26/2008 5:41:30 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 353
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
grahamcracker,
maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of full preterism. As I understand it, full preterism is the belief that the prophecies of Revelation and Matthew 24 have nothing to do with end time events; rather they refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Partial Preterism teaches that the prophecies refer primarily to the destruction of Jerusalem, but a few also refer to end time events.
If my understanding of the terms is correct, then it doesn't matter what Sproul says, because Hank definitely was teaching a full preterist interpretation (Oh Lord, I pray my memory is serving me well on this subject!). I really respect Sproul (and I have respect for Hank as well), but Hank has changed some of his doctrinal positions over the years, so it isn't unreasonable to think that he might have been influenced by some "scholarship" on the subject. On the programs I referred to Hank had a guest whose opinions Hank really agreed with. In fact they went back and forth in their description of what the prophecies meant. This man could have been the "scholar" who influenced him.
One last point, I'm not sure how full preterism (as I understand it) affects someone's orthodoxy.
Yes and no. Some Partial Preterists believe that all of Matt 24 has been completely fulfilled and some believe that most of it has been fulfilled. Partial Preterism teaches that most of Revelation has been fulfilled. The general resurrection of the dead and the final coming of Christ is still yet future.
Full Preterism teaches that all of Matt 24 has been fulfilled, much like some Partials. They also teach (in my understanding) that the resurrection from the dead has already happened. I can't give the details since I don't know as much as I's like. But in that variation, according to my reading, it is so far out there that you would have to wind up denying some pretty core doctrines of evangelical Christianity if you were to believe it. Nutter stuff, anyway.
Partial Preterists would say that the term Preterism used to refer to Partial Preterism but that Full Preterists have coopted the term. Now, non-Preterists tend to confuse Full-Preterism with Partial Preterism. I subscribe to many of the views of Partial Preterism but I have been accused of believing in things that I simply cannot accept.
GrahamCracker,
thanks for the info in both your posts! I have another question: What type of preterist are those who believe that all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and that all of Revelation was nothing more than a message of encouragement to the Christians of that period who were suffering persecution at the hands of the Roman empire?
(Additional information: this group does not believe the resurrection has already taken place, for that is an entirely different issue. This group believes that Revelation was fulfilled in the first or second century, and has nothing at all to say about end time events.)
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/26/2008 5:48:12 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/26/2008 5:44:32 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 4749
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Blessings in The Lord! I cannot afford the subscription right now.
Prophetica,
I was going to PM you.. but you have totally disabled your profile from being viewed. email me at: getequipped@gmail.com
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/26/2008 6:07:48 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 353
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
quote:
Therefore, I heard that Hank shares the bad news on his show that the cults are spreading quickly in other countries. One of the reasons for this, is their model is free will gift and free books and supplies. One cannot help but notice that our focus is to be on Jesus, not everyone else. This means that it is a productive format to wage war against the false teachings and teachers to offer it free for those who cannot afford to buy the subscription. How come, then, didn't he realize this? I would like to see a free subscription proliferated to those who need it most.
prophetica,
How do you know that Hank doesn't give away subscritpions to CRI's newsletter to those who cannot afford it? As for charging those who can afford it, I don't have any problem with that practice. Can you imagine how much it costs to produce a newsletter for a circulation of only 10,000 subscribers (I don't know how many subscribe to the newsletter; I just picked a number as an example)? The cost of hiring researchers and writers, printing costs, and distribution costs would make it an extremely expensive venture - an expense that is incurred monthly.
quote:
First of all I don't believe that scripture teaches a first resurrection then another. The scripture you provide say the resurrection not first resurrection.
Either way, they are teaching that The Millennium has occurred and that means that they are asserting that the first resurrection has also happened. This is false and is not in accordance with the Sound Instruction found in the Holy Scriptures of God. One must correct one's doctrinal errors in order to remain in the faithfullness to Jesus Christ is what Hank teaches about others.
I'm confused by your post. You are asserting that they teach a first resurrection. But is that really what they are saying? Is it not possible that they are claiming that the only resurrection has already happened? I believe this is the nature of the false teaching that the Apostle Paul refuted, so it isn't a stretch to think that full preterists are saying the same thing.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/26/2008 7:31:50 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 353
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
That sounds like Full-Preterists to me. I hope you aren't going to tell me Hank Haanegraf says that.  
Read the three links I provided on the first page. In one of them he actually clearly says he does not.
earthless,
I have to disagree (I guess there really is first time for everything) that the articles you posted clearly say Hank is not a full preterist. I read two of the three articles that you posted. The article “The Apocalyptic Code vs. Left Behind” repeats almost verbatim the things I heard Hank and his guest talk about on The Bible Answer Man program. In fact, I am pretty sure that Sigmund Brouwer (Hank’s co-author of the book “The Last Disciple”) is the guest that was on those two shows.
I am posting some excerpts from the article, which is an interview with the two men:
quote:
Sigmund: “There is also remarkable evidence for Nero as the Beast and his persecution as the great tribulation.”
Hank: “Not only is the end-time model presented in Left Behind hermeneutically false in that it attributes powers to the beast that belong only to God, but it is historically false because it places the beast in the twenty-first century. While Daniel was instructed to seal up prophecy because the time of fulfillment was in the far future (Daniel 8:26; 12:4, 9; cf. 9:24), John was told not to seal up his prophecy because its fulfillment was fore future (Revelation 22:10). John’s repeated use of such words and phrases as soon and the time is near demonstrate conclusively that John could not have had the twenty-first century in mind (e.g., Revelation 1:1, 3; 22:6).”
Hank: “Conversely, in The Last Disciple series, the beast is placed squarely where he belongs—in a first-century milieu.”
Hank and Sigmund offered the following answers to the question of what they hoped readers would take away from their book:
quote:
Sigmund: “As the characters in the novel deal with tribulation, they are sustained by the hope of resurrection that Jesus gives all of us, not with a belief that they are meant to be taken away from trouble by a rapture.”
Hank “The book of Revelation, like all of Scripture, was not written to us but for us. In other words, Revelation was not written to twenty-first-century believers but to first century Christians facing the mother of all tribulations. As such, the apostle John describes himself as a “brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation,” which the early Christian church was enduring (Revelation 1:9)… Thus, the great tribulation instigated by Nero is the antitype for every type and tribulation that follows before we experience the reality of our own resurrection at the second coming of Christ.”
Hank also said the following about end times:
quote:
“In our view the great and glorious hope of believers is not found in rapture but in the blessed hope of resurrection. Thus, in the ebb and flow of history, we will continue to experience periods of relative peace and periods of tribulation until Christ comes again, the dead are resurrected, and the problem of sin is fully and finally resolved.”
“In e2 my goal is to provide readers with a simple and easy to understand guide to the art and science of biblical interpretation. Armed with the tools for proper biblical interpretation they will no longer fall for The Tim LaHaye Study Bible interpretation that Revelation 14:20 is intended to communicate that in a twenty-first-century battle of Armageddon the blood of Christ’s enemies will create a literal river of blood one hundred and eighty miles long that rises to the level of a horse’s bridle.”
This sure sounds like Hank believes that the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, which as has been established in our discussions, is "full preterism."
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/26/2008 9:25:53 PM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
This sure sounds like Hank believes that the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, which as has been established in our discussions, is "full preterism."
Mushhead,
Many, if not most, Partial Preterists believe that most of Revelation was fulfilled very early. I know that seems incredible but it is not heretical and it doesn't make one a Full Preterist. It gets extremely difficult to convince people who aren't familiar with the eschatological system.
I read the quotes you provided and they seem consistent with Partial Preterism.
A lot of the differences between Partial Preterism, Full Preterism and Dispensationalism are semantic. A lot of the terms are viewed differently and interpreted through a different linguistic interpretive mindset.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 11:09:20 AM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
Status: offline
|
Hello in The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior! All of the Prophecies in Revelation cannot be accounted for by reciting the historical events of nero etc. We see that it is written regarding the false prophet leader who makes war on the Saints of God and conquers some of them in Daniel and Revelation. Also, there are many Great Tribulation desolation decrees that are recorded there showing how God will Judge the people who take the mark of the beast which is the number of the name of the false prophet. That these things have not occurred, as written, means that they are yet to happen at the appointed time to come. Asserting that they have occurred, is like saying that the first resurrection has occurred with the beginning of Church reign on earth. For some say that Christ is ruling through The Church through the centuries and that The Millennium has already been occurring; therefore, they are saying that the first resurrection has occurred. If revelation was fulfilled in the first or second century, then they believe that the first resurrection has occurred also. This is false teaching as written by The Apostle of God.
These things have been written in chronological order for trumpet and bowl Judgment decrees so that on may know certain things. If one takes the mark of the false prophet leader, one will bear all of the punishments that are written there. This is written as a warning to the believers so that they will escape through the trials.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
GrahamCracker,
thanks for the info in both your posts! I have another question: What type of preterist are those who believe that all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and that all of Revelation was nothing more than a message of encouragement to the Christians of that period who were suffering persecution at the hands of the Roman empire?
(Additional information: this group does not believe the resurrection has already taken place, for that is an entirely different issue. This group believes that Revelation was fulfilled in the first or second century, and has nothing at all to say about end time events.)
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/27/2008 11:16:23 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 11:47:16 AM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
Hello in The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior! All of the Prophecies in Revelation cannot be accounted for by reciting the historical events of nero etc. We see that it is written regarding the false prophet leader who makes war on the Saints of God and conquers some of them in Daniel and Revelation...
propehtica,
They can and the Partial Preterist scheme makes a lot more sense than the Dispensationlist one.
Look. The pros and cons of Preterism, in general, will not be resolved in a thread dedicated to Hank Hanegraf. There's already a thread dedicated to that purpose. So let's not try.
I thought your original intent was to discuss the validity of his apologetic ministry.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 3/27/2008 12:06:12 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 12:06:21 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
Status: offline
|
Dear GrahamCracker! They have not accounted for the Judgments that are to be issued for they have not occurred as written. And some were heard to complain about others that they try to revise historical events! It makes no sense not to believe that they will happen. This is why some could not discern when The Lord came during His earthly ministry and was cut off and had nothing as was written. For they did not believe what was written. For it is by faith that we are saved thorugh Grace in Christ unto good fruits and deeds that done through God. For whatever we do we do as unto The Lord.
I agree, though, that this discussion is about Hank Hanegraaf and his teachings. Among those are his lack of faith in prophecy. For it is written: do not treat prophecies with contempt. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. It is written that then there will be times of distress never to before had, nor ever to be equaled again on the earth.
I know, historically, that genocidal events that are abominable to God have occurred in our own days. Serbia and Bosnia for example. Though these things are troubling, they do not equal the trial to come; for these things were so burdensome that The Lord told us ahead of time so that we would be equipped to stand the testing of our faith.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
Hello in The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior! All of the Prophecies in Revelation cannot be accounted for by reciting the historical events of nero etc. We see that it is written regarding the false prophet leader who makes war on the Saints of God and conquers some of them in Daniel and Revelation...
propehtica,
They can and the Partial Preterist scheme makes a lot more sense than the Dispensationlist one.
Look. The pros and cons of Preterism, in general, will not be resolved in a thread dedicated to Hank Hanegraf. So let's not try.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/27/2008 3:04:24 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 12:19:34 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 1607
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
This is why some could not discern when The Lord came during His earthly ministry
This is exactly the argument made by preterits i.e. that Jewish leaders took prophecies literally which proved themselves not to be literal, and their conclusion is that many Christians today are making the same mistake.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 12:48:39 PM
|
|
|
Child4Jesus
Posts: 291
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
prophetica,
First of all I don't believe that scripture teaches a first resurrection then another. The scripture you provide say the resurrection not first resurrection. Second only full preterist believe that the resurrection has already taken place and from that I know of what they believe they don't believe a physical resurrection has already taken place but a spiritual one.
On book I can suggest to all is Revelation Four Views A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg.
I think what people fail to realize is that there are four main views: Historicist, Preterist, Futurist, and Spiritual.
Each view has sub-views. Futurist has Pre-Millennial, Millennial, Post-Millennial, Pre-Wrath, Post-Wrath., etc.
Also I believe that dispensationalist are mistaken but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are heretics and hell bound.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Child4Jesus,
At my last church, I used the book you recommended as my main source (right after the Bible) to teach the four views of revelation. It is an excellent resource. Studying the four views made at least one thing stand out... there is some truth in each of the four views.
Whenever someone calls his (Steve Gregg) show he says that.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 1:22:55 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
Status: offline
|
It literally is written: After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [ Or off and will have no one ; or off, but not for himself ] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. These desolations that have been decreed are written in revelation. Jesus said that wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes would happen as birthpains signifying that earth is giving birth to The Millennium Reign of Christ at Jerusalem for a thousand years.
The people of God were given the exact date for the coming of The Messiah, literally; not figuratively. For Jesus said: This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. The prophet had prophesied regarding those who would not believe Jesus Christ's teachings. Solomon said: There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
This is why some could not discern when The Lord came during His earthly ministry
This is exactly the argument made by preterits i.e. that Jewish leaders took prophecies literally which proved themselves not to be literal, and their conclusion is that many Christians today are making the same mistake.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/27/2008 5:56:34 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 7:22:09 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
Status: offline
|
<<earthless>>I can tell you firsthand that it is no joy to be labeled a "heresy-hunter." Yet, as the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason.<<earthless>>
For Paul said: That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. And regarding idle notions of false humility. And: I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. And Jesus and the Apostles said: for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I can tell you firsthand that it is no joy to be labeled a "heresy-hunter." Yet, as the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason (1 Timothy 1:18-19; 6:20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).
As for CRI - it's the most popular of apologetic question & answer radio broadcasts, but there are some others which are a lot more meatier. The Bible Answer Man is more for those in the beginning levels of apologetics, it serves its purpose.
CRI is popular because it has a niche place in the community of Christianity and there is not many ministries out there that seek to expose false doctrinal teachings in this manner. For example: "The Kingdom of the cults", instead of 'The Kingdom of God' as Jesus preached. For Love edifies but knowldege puffs up like the yeast of the pharisees which Christ admonished the Apostles to be on their guard against. Otherwise, there is also the fact that many of the listeners do not agree with everything that CRI teaches, either. For we are to judge all things regarding our own doctrine by The Holy Scriptures.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/27/2008 9:58:52 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 9:19:52 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 4749
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
Prophetica,
There are MANY other ministries out there that do the same thing CRI does. To say they are the only ones and that they have a monopoly is incorrect.
It seems you don't agree that there is a need for apologetic ministries, that's your choice. But for many believers and seekers they indeed provide a much needed resource when we consider how many questions are out there from people seeking answers.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 9:34:31 PM
|
|
|
cognitivemagic
Posts: 175
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
|
I think it is an unconvincing criticism of "para-church" organizations to argue that the "body of Christ" is above and superior to the "para-church" ministries in the Protestant context, precisely because there isn't "one body" there. There's hundreds of thousands of "bodies" and textured theological positions that comprise those churches.
But even so, God has often used "outsiders" to correct the faithful and/or carry on His work.
quote:
10 And the LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they would not listen. 11 Therefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the army of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh with hooks, bound him with bronze fetters, and carried him off to Babylon.
--2 Chronicles 33:10,11
15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
17 Therefore He brought against them the king of the Chaldeans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, on the aged or the weak; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles from the house of God, great and small, the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his leaders, all these he took to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious possessions. 20 And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.
22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
23 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!
--2 Chronicles 36:15-23
So there is precedent for this in scripture.
< Message edited by cognitivemagic -- 3/27/2008 9:41:56 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Hank Hanegraaf of The Christian Research Institute. - 3/27/2008 9:37:52 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 4749
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
)