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Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/26/2008 1:15:00 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 9
Joined: 3/26/2008
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I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
< Message edited by Linkoln -- 3/26/2008 4:00:25 PM >
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church - 3/26/2008 3:37:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1859
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning
( …. futher follows a description of a bunch of borderline heretical bozos with a strange teaching)…
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Probably would be most wise to quit reading their forum / taking it close to heart, brother?
That's worse then salvation by works, sure..
If you pay attention to every weird teaching and waste you time debating it you won’t have neither physical nor mental energy left to do anything productive for the Kingdom.
If one finds himself among such group accidentally, my advice would be to seach for the red sign that says EXIT. Every church should have one, according to building code.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church - 3/26/2008 3:56:55 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 9
Joined: 3/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning
( …. futher follows a description of a bunch of borderline heretical bozos with a strange teaching)…
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Probably would be most wise to quit reading their forum / taking it close to heart, brother?
That's worse then salvation by works, sure..
If you pay attention to every weird teaching and waste you time debating it you won’t have neither physical nor mental energy left to do anything productive for the Kingdom.
If one finds himself among such group accidentally, my advice would be to seach for the red sign that says EXIT. Every church should have one, according to building code.
Good advice. I need to take it!
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/26/2008 4:00:52 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Plenty of them are running amok on this site, too. I'm to the point where ignoring them is about all that you can do.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/26/2008 5:40:55 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2071
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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Linkoln,
There are some in the CoC who (I hope are in the minority) are particularly nasty toward those of us who subscribe to the faith only interpretation of the Bible. I have an opinion that it is not so much about correct doctrine as it is about winning debates.
My policy is to respond when it is a thread that I am participating in but I don't go picking fights. When the forum is properly policed, I don't mind getting into discussions. But some forums tend to let them run almost amok.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/27/2008 8:10:38 AM
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Linkoln
Posts: 9
Joined: 3/26/2008
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As a Evangelical Christian I have to take the stand of "faith alone" because the bible is clear that we are justified by faith. Our position before God is secured as Christ's righteousness is imputed to us well before baptism. I have debated this issue with those who believe in baptism as the moment of saving grace and have come to realize that the arguments are fruitless.
I do realize however that I must stand up for the word of God and take a stand of what salvation truly is and is not.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/27/2008 11:01:45 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2071
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I do realize however that I must stand up for the word of God and take a stand of what salvation truly is and is not.
That's difficult when our tone appears to be contentious.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/27/2008 11:57:43 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 615
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
As a Evangelical Christian I have to take the stand of "faith alone" because the bible is clear that we are justified by faith. Our position before God is secured as Christ's righteousness is imputed to us well before baptism. I have debated this issue with those who believe in baptism as the moment of saving grace and have come to realize that the arguments are fruitless.
I do realize however that I must stand up for the word of God and take a stand of what salvation truly is and is not.
Well said, brother. That we are justified by faith alone is, as Martin Luther rightly assessed, the article upon which the church either stands or falls (articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesiae). There can be no peace within the church between those who embrace the true gospel and those who peddle a false one (cf. Gal 1:8). It is our Christian duty to confront the latter (1 Tim 1:3).
In Him,
~Aphobos
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/28/2008 6:54:46 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
As a member of the Restoration Movement who has been a member of this forum for several years I can say from experience that I've been "slammed" by members of the "faith only" movement. I've been told that if I don't believe faith only then I'm leading people astray and teaching a false doctrine. So, it appears that there are "slammers" on both sides of the issue. And I think that's a shame.
I don't know the best way to approach us as a group, but I know how I'd like to be approached. I'd like to discuss what scripture says without bringing personal experience into it and without being personally attacked. Also, I find that hypothetical situations rarely result in anything productive except making the person presenting them feel like they've scored a point. And just because I may not agree with you doesn't make it feel any better when I am ignored.
I consider members of the "faith only" movement to be my brothers and sisters in Christ and I try not to have a "them and us" mentality. We're all members of the family of God.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/28/2008 5:02:06 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 9
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After reading several different forums that are linked to your tradition I must say that you are the kindest response I have seen yet. Thank You.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/29/2008 10:32:02 PM
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Ad7
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Australia
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ive been brought up in a fellowship since the age 9, so for the last 21 years. they believe that your not saved until your baptised and recieved the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
over the past few years, after reading the word ive found myself moving away from this position to a position of faith. i still think that baptism is,- well not a requirement- but something that any christian desiring the things of G-d would want to do!
Id like to hear the scriptural reasons for the position of faith and for the position of baptism. Not because i dont know but because id like to hear my fellow christians understanding of this issue.
Please understand that i do not want to create an arguement or upset anyone.  Godbless. Ad
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/30/2008 1:10:39 AM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 385
Joined: 3/6/2008
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Hi Linkoln,
I can totally relate. I used to attend Knott Avenue Christian Church. It was a non-denominational church that believed salvation was achieved by 3 ways: (water baptism, public confession, and faith). But that is not true and contrary to the teachings of scripture. The senior pastor was teaching that false message, so I left the church. The bible says we are saved by grace; which means it cannot be earned. But these churches will arise to mislead many, so let them be and may God judge them.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 3/30/2008 9:37:26 AM >
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/30/2008 4:25:24 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Aren't they doing what the deceivers that Paul addressed in Galatians were doing? Isn't that a false gospel? They are preaching that faith alone is not enough for salvation. They are teaching faith plus baptism is needed.
I would generally avoid them and share the truth if given the opportunity in Him.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/30/2008 5:14:42 PM
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Ad7
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Australia
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quote:
That was not a Christian Church/Church of Christ, though, was it?
No it isnt. Its Revival Fellowship which is an off shoot of Revival Centres International which seperated from the Assemblies of God in the 50's i think.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/30/2008 8:50:12 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 513
Joined: 1/11/2006
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I'm a member of a Restoration Movement church.
As far as rotten attitudes, disrespect and slams I haven't seen at all where that is "unique" to the RM.
I had the privilege of being called "a heretic that believes in a rubber ducky gospel". At least it was unique and I even laughed.
Aphobos and I were engaged in discussion on another thread and I asked him "Does the grass even grow on the planet you live on...". I hope he remembers that and realizes that I meant that with a smile on my face while also pointing out that I think his particular view of "saved by faith alone, through grace alone" was and is absurd as he explained it. Beyond that I don't think he holds any animosity towards me, I certainly don't towards him.
Larry and I have been involved in discussion in other forums and as far as I know we've always remained respectful. We've even exchanged PM's a time or two.
The issue is this:
Most people who are members of the Restoration Church bodies don't even realize themselves what the doctrine of those churches are. I continue to study the history of the RM and the leaders of the movement in my spare time. The problem with the RM is not much different than the problem of the Bible. It takes some time to study and learn about. Time unfortunately is something that people don't like to invest in much of anything anymore.
I believe that baptism is the mode that God has presented to accept his gift of grace. I do believe that it takes us accepting that grace, but I by no means believe that we must work for it.
Working for grace is not part of Christianity however as a Christian it is necessary that I work for God.
(Some of you will take that statement and run with it, think about what that says about YOU, not me.)
As far as this question:
quote:
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
I would say you should approach us with wisdom and knowledge as brothers and sisters.
The key to building relationships is through understanding.
In closing with a little study most of you would be pleasantly surprised at the positive effect that the RM had on the denomination you attend and the approach as to how you read, study and act upon the Scriptures. The RM has had a positive effect on the world. The members of RM churches are no less susceptible to becoming "religious" than the body or denomination you attend.
_____________________________
My Blog
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/31/2008 12:50:22 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 9
Joined: 3/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
I'm a member of a Restoration Movement church.
As far as rotten attitudes, disrespect and slams I haven't seen at all where that is "unique" to the RM.
I had the privilege of being called "a heretic that believes in a rubber ducky gospel". At least it was unique and I even laughed.
Aphobos and I were engaged in discussion on another thread and I asked him "Does the grass even grow on the planet you live on...". I hope he remembers that and realizes that I meant that with a smile on my face while also pointing out that I think his particular view of "saved by faith alone, through grace alone" was and is absurd as he explained it. Beyond that I don't think he holds any animosity towards me, I certainly don't towards him.
Larry and I have been involved in discussion in other forums and as far as I know we've always remained respectful. We've even exchanged PM's a time or two.
The issue is this:
Most people who are members of the Restoration Church bodies don't even realize themselves what the doctrine of those churches are. I continue to study the history of the RM and the leaders of the movement in my spare time. The problem with the RM is not much different than the problem of the Bible. It takes some time to study and learn about. Time unfortunately is something that people don't like to invest in much of anything anymore.
I believe that baptism is the mode that God has presented to accept his gift of grace. I do believe that it takes us accepting that grace, but I by no means believe that we must work for it.
Working for grace is not part of Christianity however as a Christian it is necessary that I work for God.
(Some of you will take that statement and run with it, think about what that says about YOU, not me.)
As far as this question:
quote:
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
I would say you should approach us with wisdom and knowledge as brothers and sisters.
The key to building relationships is through understanding.
In closing with a little study most of you would be pleasantly surprised at the positive effect that the RM had on the denomination you attend and the approach as to how you read, study and act upon the Scriptures. The RM has had a positive effect on the world. The members of RM churches are no less susceptible to becoming "religious" than the body or denomination you attend.
I like the responses that I am getting from the RM folks on this thread. I have seen 2 different sites in the past month where the RM people call "faith alone" people false teachers and deceivers. In light of that I appreciate the 2 on this thread who have represented their tradition with grace and love. Thanks for that.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 3/31/2008 3:22:47 PM
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perfectWeakness129
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad7
Id like to hear the scriptural reasons for the position of faith and for the position of baptism. Not because i dont know but because id like to hear my fellow christians understanding of this issue.
I'd love to accomodate you, brother, but this may not be the right thread for it. Let's see if anyone else responds to your request.
The doctrine of baptismal regeneration comes from the numerous passages in Acts that unite salvation with the baptism of water.
Peter affirms when asked by the mob at Pentacost that you must be baptized to be saved. (Acts 2:38, 41). Numerous conversions in Acts show salvation and baptism together (Samaritans/Simon Acts 8:12-13, the Eunuch from Ethiopia 8:39, Paul 9:18, etc.)
The other side would argue that no act need be performed for salvation to happen except faith (Rom 1:7, Rom 5:1). They would also assert that the New Testament repeatedly teaches against any action associated with salvation on the part of the saved (Gal 3:1-2, Eph 2:8-9). They would say that when you were baptized in the name of someone or something in the 1st century AD, you were pledging an allegiance to that name. This is why Paul asks “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cr 1:13)”. It was a statement of confession that Jesus Christ was your chief allegiance.
The problem with baptismal regeneration is that there are a few exceptions who, by that doctrine, would necessarily be excluded from the complete work of salvation. The Thief on the cross is the typical example, as well as the whole of the OT saints. None of these were baptized in unison with their faith in God, which we know is the very same saving faith we now hold today (Hebrew 11).
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/1/2008 7:34:16 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
The doctrine of baptismal regeneration comes from the numerous passages in Acts that unite salvation with the baptism of water. If by baptismal regeneration you mean that regeneration occurs during baptism then I'm fine with the term. If, however, you mean that baptism somehow causes regeneration, then I'm not fine with the term. I generally dislike calling what I believe the doctrine of baptismal regeneration because it makes me think that others will think that I believe baptism is what causes regeneration or that it is baptism that saves you. I emphatically do not believe that.
quote:
The problem with baptismal regeneration is that there are a few exceptions who, by that doctrine, would necessarily be excluded from the complete work of salvation. The Thief on the cross is the typical example, as well as the whole of the OT saints. None of these were baptized in unison with their faith in God, which we know is the very same saving faith we now hold today (Hebrew 11).
Baptism was not a part of the complete work of salvation until after Jesus ascended to heaven 50 days after His resurrection from the dead. Therefore, anyone who was saved prior to that, i.e., the thief on the cross, all the OT saints, would not be required to be baptized.
BTW the faith of the OT is much different from the faith we must exhibit today in order to be saved.
I appreciate your explanations of both sides of the issue though. They both seem to be fairly accurate.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/1/2008 7:56:53 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5566
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
...I hope he remembers that and realizes that I meant that with a smile on my face while also pointing out that I think his particular view of "saved by faith alone, through grace alone" was and is absurd as he explained it.....
Interestingly, scripture tells us that the Gospel of God's grace is foolishness to those who are perishing.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/1/2008 5:57:14 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 513
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Interestingly, scripture tells us that the Gospel of God's grace is foolishness to those who are perishing.
I could pose the same comment towards the "faith alone, grace alone" crowd couldn't I Jimbo?
I choose to stand up and openly admit that I absolutely do NOT to subscribe to Calvinism nor an Arminianism view.
As far as regeneration goes greatdivide makes a good point on the regeneration definition in post #20.
Interestingly enough I have very rarely met anyone that has actually tried to understand the RM teachings on baptism. I have often met people that want to argue it, on both sides I have seen ignorance result in raging debates about a subject they aren't so knowledgeable of.
_____________________________
My Blog
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/1/2008 6:08:50 PM
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perfectWeakness129
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I generally dislike calling what I believe the doctrine of baptismal regeneration because it makes me think that others will think that I believe baptism is what causes regeneration or that it is baptism that saves you. I emphatically do not believe that.
If salvation in the New Testament sense can only be complete upon/during/after baptism then baptism is necissary for salvation. Perhaps 'cause' is the wrong logical connector, but it is still necissary according to the definition of baptismal regeneration I have proposed. Please correct me if I am wrong.
quote:
BTW the faith of the OT is much different from the faith we must exhibit today in order to be saved.
The Faith of Abraham is the very same faith by which we are now saved according to Romans 3-5 (Yes, Paul takes three chapters to explain.)
At any rate, those are the differneces. Seems like we at least agree on that. Luckily I am both born of faith and of water though baptism. However, if I am baptized without believing that it is necissary for salvation and by someone who believes the same, am I still saved? Hmm...
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/2/2008 6:22:38 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 513
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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perfectWeakness129,
There is one baptism...then next question is which one is the one?
lol
Let's see if we can make God's mind up for Him.
Further more let's see if we can define God's mind on baptism.
While we're at it let's discuss which scripture verses trump other scripture verses.
We will quickly find out that Jesus didn't really mean what he said and that Paul was needed for Jesus to use and ex | | | |
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