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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/30/2008 12:46:56 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
I do understand that many people in the RM movement have what on the surface seems like Arminian beliefs.
The biggest problem with the RM today is it has lost it's identity. There are only a handful of it's members who have truly tried to study the movement and why the men that started were so compelled to do so.
That is true. Before CoC/RM evolved into their present forms, they originated largely from Christians who were on the Calvinist end of the spectrum. Alexander Campbell himself came out of the Presbyterian Church, originally staunchly Calvinistic in its beginnings. And in the United States, the early forms of the COC/RM drew, in large part, from Baptist groups in their area. If my memory of history is correct, they were actually a part of a Baptist association--either by affiliation or simply loosely fellowshipping. Whether or not they actually wore the label Baptist, I cannot say.
quote:
With that said saying that every one that is a Christian is a Calvinist would be an inaccurate statement. As would saying that all members of the RM are Arminianist.
Are you saying that some CoC/RM do not believe one can "lose their salvation" or that some do not believe works contribute, at least in part, to one's salvation? I have never heard of any. If someone believed those things, that appears to put them squarely in the Arminian camp, IMHO.
quote:
Have we forgotten Hebrews 11?
If one completely places his trust in God, how then can he completely try to explain how God does his job of saving people by picking apart the verses they don't want to believe (isn't that part of totally trusting?) and dismissing them.
See in the end it comes down to a respect for God's Word.
Will we teach all of it and treat it as [infallible]? or will we try to explain it because it is so fallible and normal people just can't understand any of it?
Part of the problem is that the Greek word translated "faith" (the noun), can mean either faithfulness (in the sense of dependability or loyalty) or faith (in the sense of believing something is true). It would appear, in some places, that the scripture does not distinguish between the two. In other places, such interchangeability cannot be accepted. We depend upon the ability of the translators to distinguish the meanings.
In my own opinion, faith (believing that something is true) has the inherent sense of trusting upon, or depending upon the object of the faith. If we do that, we mostly will act upon it. The idea of "intellectual assent" (believing something is true mentally but never behaving as though it did), I really have trouble seeing that clearly delineated in scripture.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/30/2008 1:03:53 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Larry,
When the discussion of Calvinism came up among the early RM leaders one point of interest is they didn't see it as fully in agreement with Scripture. Thomas Campbell stated in one of those discussions was a Calvinist and probably would be until the day he died. That did not have any effect on whether he was accepted into the "fold" of the RM.
As far as the discussion of "can one lose their salvation" I think there is another thread devoted to that. But for the context of this particular thread I think it should be answered. There is no simple answer, but I don't think you or I are able to definitively answer the question.
You made alluded to a good point with your "intellectual assent" statement. There must be action that is triggered by faith. The actions we perform in faith may be less than perfect. No I don't think that acts save us, but I do believe that God judges our actions and whether they are done in faith. When one quits acting on faith and either doesn't act at or or begins acting for self centered reasons I'm sure God will pronounce judgement on them (yes this alludes to my thinking that one can lose their salvation). That judgment however is for God to make, I do think I have a responsibility to encourage my fellow brothers and sisters to remain faithful. I do not think I have the right to scare them into remaining faithful.
_____________________________
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/30/2008 3:00:35 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
As far as the discussion of "can one lose their salvation" I think there is another thread devoted to that. But for the context of this particular thread I think it should be answered. There is no simple answer, but I don't think you or I are able to definitively answer the question.
Folksinger,
When I have had discussion with CoC/RM people, they would often quote various commands of Jesus and the Apostles as if they were conditions for salvation. For example, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say?" (paraphrased scripture). That, and Matt 28:18 "Go into all the world...baptizing...etc" The CoC/RM are certainly not unique in this regard. (I did not intend to group the two above examples monolithically, only by means of examples).
Anyway, the point being that if one has not fulfilled the various commands, their salvation is not assured. Therefore, at any time of being a practicing Christian, they may fail in one of those areas and jeopardize their salvific status. Losing one's salvation is a belief of any one of several variations of Arminianism. Certainly, one may hold to those and not subscribe to the other Arminian beliefs, but it would make them more Arminian on the continuum than Calvinistic.
quote:
You made alluded to a good point with your "intellectual assent" statement. There must be action that is triggered by faith. The actions we perform in faith may be less than perfect. .... self centered reasons I'm sure God will pronounce judgement on them (yes this alludes to my thinking that one can lose their salvation). That judgment however is for God to make, I do think I have a responsibility to encourage my fellow brothers and sisters to remain faithful.
It is for that reason that I do not believe the term "save" is always eschatological. I agree that there is judgment from God. Some judgments to Israel were clearly the ending of their lives or other livelihood disaster judgments (plagues and locusts). Where people often differ is that they see the term "save" as being almost inherently eschatological unless I can prove it otherwise. I think there are more than enough different uses of the term that the burden of proof lies with them.
Sometimes, scripture is simply not specific enough.
quote:
I do not think I have the right to scare them into remaining faithful.
Agreed.
If not for CW's TOS, I think we would get a lot of that here. People who would be quick to threaten someone outside of the forums, would never do it here. However, on second thought, they would probably not do that face to face with anyone, anywhere.
I do think that some of the frustration and anger comes from the inability to threaten or vent sufficiently on other people. It goes both ways. I am certainly not in agreement with some of my colleagues who are unschooled in manners. (or of myself at various times, for that manner. I shall certainly have to answer to God for many of them.)
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/30/2008 9:19:19 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Are you saying that some CoC/RM do not believe one can "lose their salvation" or that some do not believe works contribute, at least in part, to one's salvation? I have never heard of any. As a member of the Restoration Movement I believe that one can "lose their salvation." However, I don't believe that can happen accidentally or inadvertantly.
In that regard, almost no one does.
quote:
I do not believe that works contribute in anyway to one's salvation, and I've never met anyone in the RM who did. But then I think I must have led a sheltered life in the RM. 
GD,
You certainly do. But we are dealing pretty much with a semantic difference of opinion. I believe that baptism is a work and you don't. Since I believe that baptism is a work and that you believe that it is necessary for salvation, then it follows that I view your doctrine as works contributing to salvation.
BTW. If I remember correctly, you are Episcopal or some variation thereof. That is, unless you have changed affiliations.
The Restoration Movement involves the Church of Christ and/or its various off-shoots. And of course, the Mormons believe in their variation of the Restoration Movement. But I am not sure if they would call it that.
The Restoration Movement is not part of any traditional mainline denomination older earlier than 1800. At the very earliest, the late 1700s. Many of the original mainline Protestant denominations go back to the 1500s (Baptist and Episcopal) and others to the 1700s (Methodist). The Presbyterians go to either the 1500s or the 1600s.
The RM/CoC sought to restore to the church what was lost during the development of the Catholic Church doctrines. The Episcopal Church was certainly more Catholic than the CoC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/30/2008 9:42:28 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: end - 6/1/2008 10:05:44 AM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 287
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
I would have to agree that "baptism" isn't going to save anyone that uses it as some type of talisman to control what God will do by entering water. I would however totally agree that when someone places their trust in God they will follow his precepts including baptism as the spiritual and obedient act it is.
Absolutely. I fear many in the coC are actually putting their faith in baptism, not Christ. As to where the coC went off the rails, it seems to me that they take quite a legalistic view of salvation, like it's the priests entering the Holy of Holy's; do it exactly right or you get struck down. They also seem to believe that those who are saved are saved because they are wise enough to choose to be obedient. That really sounds like merrit salvation there.
Again I have to ask, why are so many in the Faith today poo pooing the need to be obedient to Christ, not only in baptism, but in preaching the Gospel and making disciples? Also, why do so many who claim that baptism is a work, then proscribe prayer in it's place. Is praying for salvation any different than baptizing for salvation?
< Message edited by MusicianDad -- 6/1/2008 10:31:33 AM >
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RE: end - 6/1/2008 3:12:48 PM
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swordsman
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quote:
Absolutely. I fear many in the coC are actually putting their faith in baptism, not Christ.
sw: Does that mean Naaman the leper, told to dip in the Jordan River to be cleansed of his leprosy, would then have put his faith in the water?
quote:
As to where the coC went off the rails, it seems to me that they take quite a legalistic view of salvation, like it's the priests entering the Holy of Holy's; do it exactly right or you get struck down. They also seem to believe that those who are saved are saved because they are wise enough to choose to be obedient. That really sounds like merrit salvation there.
sw: Where does the Bible teach that one can teach error instead of truth and be saved? It is the seed, the word of God that must be preached and not tares (Matt.13). It is the truth that sets one free, not error. Paul knew without having been there, that all Christians in Rome had obeyed a pattern of doctrine to be freed from their sins (Rom.6:17,18). No other gospel can be preached (Gal.1:6-9). The terms of God's covenant cannot be changed (Gal.3:15).
quote:
Again I have to ask, why are so many in the Faith today poo pooing the need to be obedient to Christ, not only in baptism, but in preaching the Gospel and making disciples?
sw: For the very reasons you spoke of above. Obedience is made into a dirty word - legalism. And if one is doing something, he is meriting his salvation, even though the NT teaches more than mere faith alone.
quote:
Also, why do so many who claim that baptism is a work, then proscribe prayer in it's place. Is praying for salvation any different than baptizing for salvation?
sw: I'm quite sure it's just legalism, people trying to merit their salvation, putting their faith into a prayer instead of in Jesus. :)
Swordsman
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 6/2/2008 3:17:46 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
quote:
Absolutely. I fear many in the coC are actually putting their faith in baptism, not Christ.
sw: Does that mean Naaman the leper, told to dip in the Jordan River to be cleansed of his leprosy, would then have put his faith in the water?
Naaman was not saved by dipping in the Jordan River. He, however, did receive healing by being obedient.
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receiving from God when obedient - 6/2/2008 6:46:22 PM
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swordsman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
quote:
Absolutely. I fear many in the coC are actually putting their faith in baptism, not Christ.
sw: Does that mean Naaman the leper, told to dip in the Jordan River to be cleansed of his leprosy, would then have put his faith in the water?
Naaman was not saved by dipping in the Jordan River. He, however, did receive healing by being obedient.
sw: In the same way, men receive forgiveness of sins by obedience when they are baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom.6:17,18, etc).
Swordsman
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RE: receiving from God when obedient - 6/2/2008 9:17:20 PM
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Hobbs
Posts: 40
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
quote:
Absolutely. I fear many in the coC are actually putting their faith in baptism, not Christ.
sw: Does that mean Naaman the leper, told to dip in the Jordan River to be cleansed of his leprosy, would then have put his faith in the water?
Naaman was not saved by dipping in the Jordan River. He, however, did receive healing by being obedient.
sw: In the same way, men receive forgiveness of sins by obedience when they are baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom.6:17,18, etc).
Swordsman
Actually we are completely justified before God one we place our faith in Christ. Romans chapters 3-5 deal specifically with this issue. Placing faith in Christ is no mere mental assent it is acceptance of who he is....the reality of who he claimed to be. The Restoration Movement doctrine of salvation is wrong and goes against classical teachings of Christianity. While you might think that this sounds a bit harsh it comes from the perspective of one who is now leaving the Restoration Movement. It comes from the perspective of having people in my own tradition call those outside of the RM false teachers and heretics. It comes from the perspective of having an understanding of the doctrine of salvation and the doctrines of grace that point to a Sovereign God who saves a people for himself. Man cannot earn his salvation.
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virtually everybody disagrees - 6/2/2008 9:48:16 PM
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swordsman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbs
quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
sw: In the same way, men receive forgiveness of sins by obedience when they are baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom.6:17,18, etc).
Swordsman
quote:
Actually we are completely justified before God one we place our faith in Christ. Romans chapters 3-5 deal specifically with this issue.
sw: The Bible says no such thing. It teaches that we are justified by faith but does not say that we are justified by faith the moment we believe. Virtually everybody disagrees with that idea. Even faith onlyists turn around and tell men to pray to be forgiven.
They believed in Acts 2:37 or they wouldn't have asked what they must do. And they were told what they must do - repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
quote:
Placing faith in Christ is no mere mental assent it is acceptance of who he is....the reality of who he claimed to be. The Restoration Movement doctrine of salvation is wrong and goes against classical teachings of Christianity.
sw: The classical teachings of Christianity? What does that mean? The narrow group that has sprung from Martin Luther's words of by faith alone? That's classical? Your idea totally ignores the fact that the majority of Christendom teaches that faith alone is NOT enough. Your idea totally ignores the FACT that all Christians in the 2nd century taught that baptism was the moment of salvation, and some had been taught directly by the apostles! That's classical. They taught that using the very words of scripture about baptism, just as I do. And the 3rd century was the same, and the 4th, etc, etc.
Those who teach the modern heresy of salvation by faith alone act as if they must be right simply because they exist within that movement, and totally ignore the reality of history and especially scripture.
quote:
While you might think that this sounds a bit harsh it comes from the perspective of one who is now leaving the Restoration Movement. It comes from the perspective of having people in my own tradition call those outside of the RM false teachers and heretics.
sw: One can call JW's all sorts of things for adding to the very word of God in John 1:1, etc, and then faith onlyists turn around and follow Luther who did the same thing by adding to "alone" to Romans.
quote:
It comes from the perspective of having an understanding of the doctrine of salvation and the doctrines of grace that point to a Sovereign God who saves a people for himself. Man cannot earn his salvation.
sw: Earning? Who brought up earning? Obedience is necessary to be saved (Rom.6:17,18; I Pet.1:22; Heb.5:9, etc) and obedience therefore does not earn. Faith itself is a work (John 6:26ff) and that doesn't earn.
What faith onlyists fail to realize is that works of faith can be involved and there is no earning at all. It is true both inside the Bible and outside the Bible that works can be involved and no earning. Yet, it is a kneejerk reaction of faith onlyists, a horrible error, that works are mentioned and it means earning!
They had to pick up the manna, but it wasn't earned.
Noah had to build an ark in order to be saved, yet that didn't earn his salvation.
Naaman had to dip but that didn't earn his healing.
They had to fight to take possession of the promised land, GIVEN to them by God, and yet that didn't earn it.
Men are given gift certificates and must go to the store, etc, to get the merchandise, but the activity/work involved in that doesn't take away one bit from the fact that it was a gift.
Swordsman
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RE: virtually everybody disagrees - 6/2/2008 10:09:55 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I would boldly state that there is a huge difference between "accepting" and "earning".
I can accept something I could never earn. I can't earn something I'd never be worthy to.
With that said I don't see the continued argument is.
I have said it before and I say it again.
It all comes down to how much reverence, respect and authority one places on Scripture.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: virtually everybody disagrees - 6/8/2008 12:40:28 AM
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Tomb
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Did the blind man in (John 9) earn his eyesight by being obedient to the Lord? No.
Neither do people earn forgiveness of sins when they are obedient to (Acts 2:38 ; 8:5,12,38,39 ; 22:16).
One thing is for sure,one cannot be forgiven without being obedient to the word of God I posted above.
(Rev. 1:5) -...and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(Eph.1:7) - ...7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Check out - http://www.bible.ca/
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RE: virtually everybody disagrees - 6/9/2008 2:54:56 AM
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Tomb
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We must understand the word SYNECDOCHE.
This is very important. Here is a short but powerful lesson which will help many harmonize the word of God.
http://www.preacherstudy.com/faithalon.html
in love tomb
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