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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/5/2008 8:13:23 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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There is a very good book, most likely at your library, called 'Street Smarts for Kids' which was written by a police detective.
He recommends NOT teaching 'stranger' danger stuff...because kids really cannot discern who is a stranger and who is not. I like his principles, and it's basically what I have taught my kids.
I would probably not do the subway thing, well, perhaps now that Brandon is 15  but not much younger than that...there's smart and then there's smart, lol. But then...I can't stand big cities.
They do take the bus here, ride their bikes all over this town, walk different places, stay home alone all day long 5 days/week, and even leave when I am not home, though.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/5/2008 8:32:37 PM
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karlie
Posts: 16662
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From: Central California
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quote:
We're in a rural area, in a tiny little town. But even here, safety is not a guarantee.
Absolutely! Times are not what they were even 10 years ago.
If something was going to happen to my child it would most certainly not be because I dropped them off in a subway or another dangerous situation and basically allowed it to happen. That's unnecessary risk and pure negligence in my opinion.
quote:
What would you all consider to be some appropriate 'exercises' to teach kids independence and personal safety?
Most of those things happened as we went through life. We did things kind of how we ourselves learned growing up. We taught the girls to be aware of their surroundings and advised them about situations that would be best to stay out of. Using things we saw on the news helped too, or as we drove around. We talked to them about choices and how some situations we get into without thinking can have negative consequences. I think it's just teaching them basic understanding of how the world is, good and bad and about protecting themselves. We did teach them to read maps so they could navigate on their own. I think it's also the little things that you work on as they grow up; Learning how to cross the street, walk to a nearby friends home, spent the night with a trusted friend, learning addresses and cross streets, spending increments of time away from you in safe environments so they learn they can survive without you. As responsibility increases and time away increases, so does their capability and confidence. I think those things are all that's needed. I definitely don't think it's necessary(or wise) to deliberately place them in danger to learn something.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/5/2008 8:49:08 PM
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garsyt
Posts: 2019
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Had I been raising my children in NYC then quite likely by 10 or 11 I would have considered doing something like this, I would have however had my child have a cell phone. BUT my kids have not been raised in NYC but small town Indiana.
AND it's different for EVERY child. My eldest when we moved here was 8. I allowed him to go on bike rides with a friend, to go to the post office and even to one of a couple nearby stores. On occassion I also allowed him to walk with friends up to youth activities at church but was always there afterwards to pick them all up. My eldest dd is now 10 and in the last couple of years she's been doing pretty much the same things -except her closest friend doesn't live in the neighborhood. She walks to the store, to church with a group (usually her younger and older siblings) and goes to the post office without me watching. She's been doing these things since she was 8 or so. However my youngest ds is now almost 9 and he does NOT have nearly the same privilages as his older siblings had at his age. Why? simple - I don't trust him and he hasn't displayed the same level of responsibility or sensibility as ANY of his siblings. He walks back and forth to a friends house, but I typically watch him all the way and have a set time that he is supposed to be home and watch for him then too. If I ask him to go to the neighbors for something or to the post office I watch him then too. He's getting better - but he still has some time before I allow him to do bikerides with friends, and going to the store alone. Now if he's with one of his older siblings I allow him to go, but NOT never alone! My youngest is 7 and last summer when she was 6, I started allowing her to run things over to the post office for me but I watched her the entire distance and she was excellent at following the rules when it came to crossing the street and everything. But it will be sometime before she is allowed to go anywhere on her own - simply because she is young and still learning the rules. There is safety in numbers so most of the time the kids around here travel in groups, many with siblings and that is how it's going to be with my kids for a VERY long time. My now 14 year old has plenty of freedom and can do much on his own - but I always feel much more at ease if he is with a friend or two.
The key for me was to start out with small responsibilities like taking the dog for a walk up our dead end street or walking to the post office with me watching. Then depending upon how these tasks were handled, then I would allow other opportunities but only after we had talked about the rules and possible problems they might encounter. Oh and my eldest dd now walks our dog regularly and ALWAYS carries a big hiking stick with her - not to ward off possible attackers (it might be effective tho) but to protect herself and our dog (a small pug) from other dogs in the neighborhood should they escape the confines of their yards. I got this idea from an older lady that walks in the area and is always carrying a good sized rod with a hook at the end of it. She says she's never had to use it but there have been times when that hook has scared off a stray dog or two.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/5/2008 10:01:44 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/29/2005
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My older girl is 3.
At her age, I allow her to play in the front yard alone, while I sit by a window with nearly a full view and half-read, or while I do chores in the room with that big window, returning to the window for frequent glances.
I encourage her to be in various rooms of the house without me, and we are working on going to the washroom without my company. Unsupervision is pretty average in our home.
In stores/malls I let her walk/run by herself and call out or whistle a soft low tone when she is beyond my comfort zone. I do allow her to be slightly around corners or on the other side of clothing racks, but only momentarily. If she looks like she's looking for me and can't see me (but I can see her) I stand still and let her look or call out to me or come back my way - to see how she would manage to find me... but not for long, or if she looks very distressed, or if she begins to go the wrong way.
In parking lots she can choose to hold a hand, hold the cart/stroller or walk RIGHT beside me. At the car, she can walk around to her own side as long as she stays in arm's reach of the car. She opens her own door and gets in.
At Church we are a small, friendly group. During social times, I allow her to roam freely with the pack of other children, which includes some older children who would tell me if anything needed my attention. Most adults generally keep an eye out for the small ones. She also spends time socializing with various adults, but I don't always know where she is or who she is with at those times - nor does she always know where I am.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 12:16:47 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2805
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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I have a question.
Are times really different than they were back in 1963?
Today we have CNN, FOX and assorted other news stations that broadcast 24/7 to where (I think) we are now made aware of the abductions whereas years ago we weren't, which makes it seem as though there is an "epidemic".
Wasn't there kidnappings back in 1963?
Weren't there crazies back then as there are today?
I think it is wise of a parent to prepare a child like this parent did.
To not teach a city child (or any child for that matter) how to use the bus, subway, train or whatever form of transportation to get home from wherever they may be is, IMHO, neglectful.
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~Kimmie
 When you go through menopause they don't tell you what you are becoming. I think I'm becoming my Dad.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 8:29:25 AM
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csl7037
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I'm sorry, I think that was a crazy thing to do and I like the seatbelt analogy above. And whoever made the point about being more worried about her cell phone than her child getting lost or stolen. For crying out loud!
We live on a very safe cul de sac but our house is turned so that the cul de sac is to the side of our house. My kids are 7 and 8 and I still really wont let them play out there alone just because I can't see well where they are or what's going on. Maybe this summer I'll work on that incrementally. They're old enough to handle that. But I wouldn't let them go around the block much less home on a subway! I am quite certain my mother wouldn't have thought that was a good idea in 1978 either.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 9:27:40 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1115
Joined: 4/29/2005
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I think the cell phone thing is a red herring - obviously a cell phone can fall out of a boy's pocket, or he can leave a backpack behind. It is unlikely that the boy himself will fall out of his own pocket on to the sidewalk, or sit down and forget where he left himself! The cell phone is not about to get on the appropriate transportation and go home!
She never said, "I don't want him to have a cell phone in case he gets kidnapped, then I would be sad that my cell phone was lost too." She just thought that while facing a challenge in getting himself home, it would be unfair to also burden him with the responsibility of keeping track of a valuable item.
She does not care more about the loss of a cell phone than the loss of a child. It's unfair to vilify her that way. She just thinks that a child is unlikely to be kidnapped - but he is likely to loose track of what he is carrying during his adventure.
It would be just as false to say that because you don't send a cell phone to school with your child, because it is expensive, probably unnecessary and might get lost or stolen... that you care more about it than your child, who might need it if he is bullied or abducted there. It's a silly assertion.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 9:50:20 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5196
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
it would be unfair to also burden him with the responsibility of keeping track of a valuable item.
Like himself?
quote:
It would be just as false to say that because you don't send a cell phone to school with your child, because it is expensive, probably unnecessary and might get lost or stolen...
I don't know about over there (USA or Canada), but in the UK you can get relatively cheap cell phones now. Got one for my dd to take to school "just in case" (she walks just over a mile each day) for about $25 on EBay (brand new) and there were others cheaper.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 9:52:56 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5196
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
I think it is wise of a parent to prepare a child like this parent did.
To not teach a city child (or any child for that matter) how to use the bus, subway, train or whatever form of transportation to get home from wherever they may be is, IMHO, neglectful.
Thing is, she did not prepare him - she threw him in at the deep end.
Preparing him would have meant first letting him "take him and home" one day. Giving him the map and the money, and saying "Ok, you work everything out and take me home". Doing this two or three times, then one day taking him and a friend into town, and letting them both find their way home together on their own. Then and only then letting him do this on his own (and definitely *with* a cell phone).
That would have been preparation IMO.
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"I have nothing to add, except to agree with Manda."
(agapetos, July 2008)
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 11:17:02 AM
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rainbowtvp
Posts: 1080
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From: The Unted State of Confusion
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I was always taught and have taught my kids to use a buddy system. Whether in the city, in the woods, or a small town. I think allowing a child of any age to walk alone is just asking for trouble.
As an adult, I still practice this when possible- but as an adult I am less vulnerable and have more experience in the world than a child/teen.
I can think of scores of situations where myself, a friend, or one of my kids would have been in serious danger had they not had a friend with them- right through the high school years.
My dh's cousin was abducted back in the early 70's. She was released or escaped "unharmed" after a few hours (I don't know the details) so, no, these instances are nothing new.
There is nothing anyone could say to convince me that the OP's plan would ever be a good idea. Not with any child- no matter how responsible, under any conditions.
Yes- children need to have as much experience (supervised) in their environment as possible and should be given incremental indepence and responsibility, but a parent's first duty is to provide their children with protection.
You can prepare a child to be safe in the event of getting separated, etc, with other methods--without leaving them vulnerable.
Tara P
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 11:46:42 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2805
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
I think it is wise of a parent to prepare a child like this parent did.
To not teach a city child (or any child for that matter) how to use the bus, subway, train or whatever form of transportation to get home from wherever they may be is, IMHO, neglectful.
Thing is, she did not prepare him - she threw him in at the deep end.
Preparing him would have meant first letting him "take him and home" one day. Giving him the map and the money, and saying "Ok, you work everything out and take me home". Doing this two or three times, then one day taking him and a friend into town, and letting them both find their way home together on their own. Then and only then letting him do this on his own (and definitely *with* a cell phone).
That would have been preparation IMO.
quote:
Anyway, for weeks my boy had been begging for me to please leave him somewhere, anywhere, and let him try to figure out how to get home on his own. So on that sunny Sunday I gave him a subway map, a MetroCard, a $20 bill, and several quarters, just in case he had to make a call.
Sounds like she had prepared him.
How much more ready would he have to be?
I don't see how what she did was "throwing him in at the deep end".
Some children stand at the edge of the nest peering over then backing back in because they aren't ready, while others stand on the edge flapping their wings to take off.
I am surprised that any of us made it in this big bad world as we grew up without a cell phone. 
Children need to know how to utilize pay phones, how to approach a police officer and how to get home from anywhere.
I taught my kids how to read a map when they were little, to know North, South, East and West instead of just right and left, to pay attention to street signs, and to especially pay attention to their surroundings and the people surrounding them.
_____________________________
~Kimmie
When you go through menopause they don't tell you what you are becoming. I think I'm becoming my Dad.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 11:55:18 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3361
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
I think it is wise of a parent to prepare a child like this parent did.
To not teach a city child (or any child for that matter) how to use the bus, subway, train or whatever form of transportation to get home from wherever they may be is, IMHO, neglectful.
Thing is, she did not prepare him - she threw him in at the deep end.
Preparing him would have meant first letting him "take him and home" one day. Giving him the map and the money, and saying "Ok, you work everything out and take me home". Doing this two or three times, then one day taking him and a friend into town, and letting them both find their way home together on their own. Then and only then letting him do this on his own (and definitely *with* a cell phone).
That would have been preparation IMO.
This is not a child who was taken into NYC for the first time in his life and dropped off with a "Good luck." This is a child who has spent nine years navigating the city with his mother. Both of them felt he was prepared to find his own way home, which he was.
The OP doesn't give us enough information to assert that the mother didn't prepare her kid. She obviously did if he was able to get home.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 12:06:56 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 7097
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
She obviously did if he was able to get home.
I agree. It wasn't some kind of miracle that the kid lived to tell about it.
From the OP
quote:
As if keeping kids under lock and key and helmet and cell phone and nanny and surveillance is the right way to rear kids. It’s not. It’s debilitating — for us and for them.
She has a philosophy and she's thought it through and we can surmise that she's been raising the boy according to that philosophy for 9 years. Her kid being able to do things like this didn't start with this incident.
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If any left over I buy food and clothes.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 12:09:43 PM
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rainbowtvp
Posts: 1080
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: The Unted State of Confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
Sounds like she had prepared him.
How much more ready would he have to be?
<snip>Children need to know how to utilize pay phones, how to approach a police officer and how to get home from anywhere.
I taught my kids how to read a map when they were little, to know North, South, East and West instead of just right and left, to pay attention to street signs, and to especially pay attention to their surroundings and the people surrounding them.
Absolutely they do need to know how to do those things.
Stelluna wrote:
quote:
This is not a child who was taken into NYC for the first time in his life and dropped off with a "Good luck." This is a child who has spent nine years navigating the city with his mother. Both of them felt he was prepared to find his own way home, which he was.
.
As for the parts I bolded... just because he had the ability to do them, does not mean it was safe or that it was a good idea.
My ds was a great swimmer. He could have gone swimming on his own everyday without supervision and probably been fine. Did I ever let him do that? No!
My dd16 can find her way to and from anywhere in our county I recently found out! She just got her permit and she never has needed to ask me for directions yet (My d619, OTOH, asks me at every intersection for places we go daily!). Does that mean I let her drive to those places alone? No!
My kids were both able to cook and bake a lot of things by the time they were 6 or so... did I let them use the stove unsupervised? No!
Kids learn to do these things by practicing them under supervision- even after they have seemed to mastered something, even if they could do it on their own, even if they would be safe enough 80% of the time- precautions still need to be in place.
Because even though they might make it through many times without problem- they have not experienced enough of the glitches to know how to deal with them when they occur.
Tara P
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 12:11:25 PM
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rainbowtvp
Posts: 1080
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From: The Unted State of Confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Her kid being able to do things like this didn't start with this incident.
Just to sum up my last post and reiterate my main point- just because a kid can do something, doesn't mean they should.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 1:06:56 PM
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karlie
Posts: 16662
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
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I think my problem with the whole thing is the thought process behind it; That you have to throw the child into the deep end of the pool(and walk off and leave them there!) before they learn to swim. That's pretty much what this mom did. That is poor logic, and dangerous in my opinion. Even when children can swim, it's pretty foolish to leave them in a pool with no supervision and help nearby should the need arise. Not because we think they will suddenly forget how to swim, or are too immature to make it to the side of the pool, but because kids are kids and things happen...that's just the way it is. Even accomplished children need a safety net.
There are many, many ways to teach a child life's lessons and train them to become independent without risking their safety.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 8:43:20 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2805
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
This is not a child who was taken into NYC for the first time in his life and dropped off with a "Good luck." This is a child who has spent nine years navigating the city with his mother. Both of them felt he was prepared to find his own way home, which he was.
Absolutely agree!
_____________________________
~Kimmie
When you go through menopause they don't tell you what you are becoming. I think I'm becoming my Dad.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/6/2008 10:01:43 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 2520
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
quote:
This is not a child who was taken into NYC for the first time in his life and dropped off with a "Good luck." This is a child who has spent nine years navigating the city with his mother. Both of them felt he was prepared to find his own way home, which he was.
Absolutely agree!
Agreed. A child who is born an raised in NYC needs to know how to handle himself at a far earlier age then a suburb or country kid. Nothing about that article indicated that she'd thrown him off the deep end. She was doing him a favor by teaching him how to take care of himself.
Nine may be a bit young, I agree. But by middle school, any city kid should be well able to handle public transit on his own. Children are safer when they know how to handle themselves. Best his first experience alone on the subway be under somewhat controlled circumstances, then a lost, frightened teenager who is clueless and vulnerable
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/7/2008 1:16:04 AM
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TMeeks
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Yes, mom and kid are estatic because he found his way home.
But, John Lyon and his wife, of Kensington, MD, nearby, have spent 12,000 and 67 days wondering if their two precious daughters are alive or dead. They didn't find their way home more than 30 years ago. And, it was a much shorter distance to travel.
The Lyon Sisters
That child was seen alone by hundreds, or even thousands, and it only takes one deranged person for the story to not end so happily. A mom must have the IQ of a gnat to take that kind of a risk. 
But, there is SOME good news! With all the cameras in New York, the police would probably eventually be able to find the building where his body could be found! That's certainly an advance over 1975! Shortsighted people, living in denial, like this woman drive me crazy.
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Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/7/2008 1:22:29 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1406
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
I think it is wise of a parent to prepare a child like this parent did.
To not teach a city child (or any child for that matter) how to use the bus, subway, train or whatever form of transportation to get home from wherever they may be is, IMHO, neglectful.
Thing is, she did not prepare him - | | | |
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I wouldn't put children I know in my city in that situation because they would likely panic and not have a clue. A child raised in NY is different.) 
