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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/14/2008 4:22:54 PM
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Sunnymom
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Obviously we can't prepare children for every possibility down to the last detail, but we can give them some basics, and knowing how to find help or one's way to a safe place would be at the top of my list, especially in a big city.
In the other thread about strangers the book Protecting the Gift was mentioned- it lays a good foundation for teaching kids what to do by giving them some basics, not by trying to address every single "What if" you can think of.
The author tells the story of a harried mother in a mall with whom a man struck up a conversation, and the minute her back was turned he picked up her son and ran off with him. She tried to get help and chase him down- she never saw her son again. So what if-what if-what if- the best you can do is equip your kids the best you can, and stop depending on things like cell phones or chaperones. Children need to learn how to depend on their own common sense that hopefully has been nurtured by their parents. Teaching kids to fear by telling them what to do in horrific scenarios will do more to make them paralyzed in an emergency than to teach them how to react.
I think the mom in the story knew exactly what she was doing, what time of day she was doing it, and how her son would react. She knew the MTA had policies to deal with unaccompanied kids. She knew how long it would take him to get home. And the thing about the cell phone was a bit facetious IMO- who here lets their 16-18 yo drive a car, but yet they don't always take care of their room or remember to take out the trash. Who here loses keys and glasses on a regular basis- but do we forbid ourselves from leaving the house until we are perfectly responsible in every area?
There are things I let my kids do that shock other parents, and other things I don't let my kids do that get me the label of 'overprotective'. If something terrible ever happens to one of my children, and some nimrod tries to place blame anywhere but on the perpetrator... you just don't want to know.  
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/14/2008 8:55:29 PM
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W.O.F.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
Obviously we can't prepare children for every possibility down to the last detail, but we can give them some basics, and knowing how to find help or one's way to a safe place would be at the top of my list, especially in a big city.
In the other thread about strangers the book Protecting the Gift was mentioned- it lays a good foundation for teaching kids what to do by giving them some basics, not by trying to address every single "What if" you can think of.
The author tells the story of a harried mother in a mall with whom a man struck up a conversation, and the minute her back was turned he picked up her son and ran off with him. She tried to get help and chase him down- she never saw her son again. So what if-what if-what if- the best you can do is equip your kids the best you can, and stop depending on things like cell phones or chaperones. Children need to learn how to depend on their own common sense that hopefully has been nurtured by their parents. Teaching kids to fear by telling them what to do in horrific scenarios will do more to make them paralyzed in an emergency than to teach them how to react.
AMEN and AMEN......
quote:
I think the mom in the story knew exactly what she was doing, what time of day she was doing it, and how her son would react. She knew the MTA had policies to deal with unaccompanied kids. She knew how long it would take him to get home. And the thing about the cell phone was a bit facetious IMO- who here lets their 16-18 yo drive a car, but yet they don't always take care of their room or remember to take out the trash. Who here loses keys and glasses on a regular basis- but do we forbid ourselves from leaving the house until we are perfectly responsible in every area?
There are things I let my kids do that shock other parents, and other things I don't let my kids do that get me the label of 'overprotective'. If something terrible ever happens to one of my children, and some nimrod tries to place blame anywhere but on the perpetrator... you just don't want to know.
Again...I agree wholeheartedly!
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/15/2008 7:39:38 AM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
The author tells the story of a harried mother in a mall with whom a man struck up a conversation, and the minute her back was turned he picked up her son and ran off with him. She tried to get help and chase him down- she never saw her son again. So what if-what if-what if- the best you can do is equip your kids the best you can, and stop depending on things like cell phones or chaperones. Children need to learn how to depend on their own common sense that hopefully has been nurtured by their parents. Teaching kids to fear by telling them what to do in horrific scenarios will do more to make them paralyzed in an emergency than to teach them how to react.
I don't think we depend on things like cell phones and chaperones, but they are useful tools. For example, we have smoke alarms in our house, and we teach our kids how to dial 9-1-1, and we have a fire extinguisher and a fire escape plan. These tools will be useful in case of a fire. I understand that in some situations those tools might not be accessible and that despite being prepared, tragedies can still happen.
But just because smoke alarms can fail to wake people up and fire extinguishers can be out of reach when you need them doesn't mean we should get rid of them. Just because 9-1-1 might not get there in time doesn't mean we shouldn't bother teaching kids the number.
There are some things that are out of our control, and there are other reasonable precautions we can take. To deliberately take away a tool of safety, like a cell phone, on the basis that "in an emergency you might not have one anyway" doesn't make sense to me.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/15/2008 8:18:15 AM
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Sunnymom
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Lisa,
You misunderstood my post. I was not advocating that we get rid of safety measures. I italicized the word dependency because too many people say to themselves- "The kids have a cell phone so they're OK" or "The kids are with Uncle Bob so they're OK". We can't dismiss the fact that kids need to know what to do if they get cut off from family and friends, or what to do when a member of the family or a trusted friend betrays that trust by acting inappropriately.
And that doesn't have to mean sexually either. I remember being in a car with a youth leader as a teen on our way to play putt-putt, and he was driving at least 20 mph over the speed limit. I was furious, and told the assistant pastor what had happened, and the YP got in trouble and I suffered repercussions for months for ratting him out, but my response was that I liked my head where it was at, and he had no right to put me at that kind of risk without my permission. All the other kids would have just kept quiet because they did not want to make him mad or be 'the rat'. So we weren't 'safe' in spite of the fact that we were with a 'trusted' adult- and I use the term 'adult' very loosely.
You know what? If we don't let our kids know that we believe them and trust them, they will not come to us when things like that happen, because adults will often take the word of another adult over the word of a child, especially a teen. The best thing we can do for our children is to know them.
I don't know enough about the MTA to say much about the experience, but the mom in question was comfortable with her son having change for a public phone instead of carrying a cell phone. We can squawk all day about her choice, but from what I read and saw, she made that choice based on her knowledge of their community and of her son, not on a whim. If he had been bugging her for months to get to ride the subway alone, they obviously talked about it again and again. "What would you do if...." etc...
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/15/2008 9:41:14 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
I don't know enough about the MTA to say much about the experience, but the mom in question was comfortable with her son having change for a public phone instead of carrying a cell phone. We can squawk all day about her choice, but from what I read and saw, she made that choice based on her knowledge of their community and of her son, not on a whim. If he had been bugging her for months to get to ride the subway alone, they obviously talked about it again and again. "What would you do if...." etc...
I think this is what frustrates me about response to this story. This was not a mother who dropped her kid off without some kind of preparation. Everyone's acting like one day she just decided to abandon her son in Macy's to see what would happen. That wasn't the situation at all!
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/15/2008 8:46:45 PM
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bzirk
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Bottom line: if you know your kid is capable of handling the scenario, then it might be just fine. I will admit that NYC is pretty safe, but I'm not sure I would let my nine year old make his/her way home. If we lived there, I might feel differently. I did let my 15 and 17 year old ride all around town alone while we were there for several weeks, and they did know how the city is laid out, the subway/bus system and most importantly where NOT to go. This kid probably knew as well, but I don't know that. Therein lies the reason I could not really make an assessment of this particular situation but only comment on what I would do.
< Message edited by bzirk -- 4/15/2008 8:53:21 PM >
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Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/16/2008 3:01:12 AM
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Melitac
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I'm sorry, but I'm not.
I just believe that my kids lives are not an item I want to gamble with.
Words used here like "risks", "realities", "options", "knowledge", "understanding", "time of day",
"details", "capabilities"
.......these are words that game bosses/gamblers use in casinos.
The problem with this view is that there is no way to "regain the losses" afterward.
For me I will stick with the FACT that the less gambled is the least lost.
And Sunnymom,
You are wrong in the suggestion that Moms (adult) will believe other (adult) Moms.
In my experience as a mother of 24 years. EVERY single mother (adult)ALWAYS will
believe THEIR CHILD rather than that of another adult (mother). REGARDLESS OF THE ADULT RELATIONSHIPS.
Blood is thicker. And the relationship of the parent/child is actually stronger.
< Message edited by Melitac -- 4/16/2008 3:11:26 AM >
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/16/2008 3:09:19 AM
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Melitac
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As a side note;
I wish my nearby city was as safte as NYC. It used to be! 
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/16/2008 5:16:35 PM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
And Sunnymom,
You are wrong in the suggestion that Moms (adult) will believe other (adult) Moms.
In my experience as a mother of 24 years. EVERY single mother (adult)ALWAYS will
believe THEIR CHILD rather than that of another adult (mother). REGARDLESS OF THE ADULT RELATIONSHIPS.
That hasn't been my experience, but I do know that some parents coddle their children, especially when it comes to the idea of their child doing wrong. What I was talking about was when a child reports misconduct by an adult- the adults tend to believe the adult in question. Again, in my experience.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/16/2008 6:36:18 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
For me I will stick with the FACT that the less gambled is the least lost.
I assume, then, that you neither drive a vehicle with your children nor give them baths under 4. After all, isn't it most prudent to avoid the top 2 risks that are PROVEN to result in the most deaths? That's just good gambling.
Here's a betting guide for your risk-assessment enjoyment.
< Message edited by pbaribeault -- 4/16/2008 6:49:09 PM >
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/16/2008 7:11:35 PM
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Ellie-Mae
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They probably don't let the kids do those things unsupervised.
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He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/16/2008 7:21:33 PM
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pbaribeault
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The kids died anyways.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/17/2008 11:26:42 AM
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shadowspring
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I think it is tragic how few people really prepare their kids to live independently and courageously in this life. Then they send the poor unprepared teens to the workplace and off to college and they really do have to "sink or swim"!
I fully believe the mom in NYC did the responsible thing: making a plan for independent learning (probably well thought out and well trained for ahead of time) and then giving the boy a trial run at it.
This country was founded by huge-risk-takers, who brought their children here to an unknown place and put them in daily danger while teaching them to carve a life for themselves out of the wilderness. I like to think it is these character traits for daring adventure and self-sufficiency that has made our country as great as it is. I hope these traits will be encouraged in future generations, so our country can remain a world power and leader in technology and innovation.
This young man from NYC will most likely be one of those future leaders, as he is learning at a young age to manage risks, not avoid them.
On a side note: my dh tells a story about how, as a 3 yr old missionary kid, he killed a very poisonous snake with his machete, and how proud he was of his young self at the time.
Being raised in this culture, my first reaction was not "how brave!" but "You had a machete when you were three?!?!" 
The truth is, a 3 yr old without a machete will be at much greater risk in the jungles of Brazil than a three year old whose only experience is with binkys and blankys. 
Knowing how to use a machete and recognize poisonous snakes is not a skill needed by 3 yr olds here. But I am sure glad my in-laws taught my dh these skills when he was so young!
I'm all for empowering parents to equip their children as God leads. I won't judge this mom in NYC wrong. She knows what it takes to survive and thrive in her city. Kudos to her for being assertive in passing this on to future generations.
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"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..." -J. R. R. Tolkien
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/17/2008 12:22:42 PM
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agapetos
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I guess that we each handle things differently according to circumstance...
As a (under 10-year-old) I used to go to the largish town near where we lived on a bus with my sister and a friend and instructed to 'stay together'. When I went to boarding school at 11, we were allowed to go to the nearest shops with someone from the Sixth form (17-18-year-old) and as we moved up the school we were given more freedom ~ but we had to be in groups of between 3 and 5 (though we did sometimes meet up later).
The boy in question obviously found his way home ~ whether he did this because he'd travelled the route so often before or because he had the intelligence to recognise and figure things out we aren't told.
I suspect I'd have been inclined to have my child take me home ~ ie the child would be in control of where and how we travelled (inc buying tickets etc) and I would simply be there for difficulties.
I do and will have a problem with this boy not being given a mobile though ~ and that may be simply from cultural differences. Here it is very difficult to find a coin-operated pay phone. Calls to emergency services are free. Many public phones require credit cards or pre-paid phone cards ~ but even these seem to be disappearing at a rate of knots.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/17/2008 12:58:25 PM
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miasma
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Posting blind, here, but kids ride the subway ALL THE TIME in places like NYC, Philly, etc. (not to mention Europe, where it's the primary form of transportation). They grow up doing it. I don't see a thing wrong with what this mother did.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/17/2008 1:05:14 PM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: miasma
Posting blind, here, but kids ride the subway ALL THE TIME in places like NYC, Philly, etc. (not to mention Europe, where it's the primary form of transportation). They grow up doing it. I don't see a thing wrong with what this mother did.
me either and I love your av!
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/22/2008 12:45:50 PM
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gt40girl
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As a kid who grew up on Long Island in the 70-80's I think this Mom was fine. Goodness, they are NYrs...the kid has grown up in the city (obviously if he can get home by the subway) and as many has said, it depends on the kids.
I now live in suburbia and I fine way too many parents are way overprotective. My now 7 y/o has been riding around our neighborhood alone for two years...kid bro kicked in at 6 when he finally got the two wheeler figured out...they love exploring.
Do I worry? Yes. Am I frantic...once when DS1 did not come home quickly....i peeked around the corner and he was walking his bike home bleeding...fell off and scrapped his knee...does he still go around by himself...yup.
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/22/2008 2:27:42 PM
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DenimDiva
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hi gt40girl and welcome!
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RE: Why I Let My 9 Year Old Ride The Subway Alone - 4/26/2008 8:14:19 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1963
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I just came across Lenore Skenazy's blog- Free Range Kids. Lenore Skenazy is the mother who wrote the article in the OP. Her writing is amusing and quite a bit of it is tongue-in-cheek, so those who don't have a sense of humor might want to avoid it or you'll have a coronary. 
From her About page-
quote:
When I wrote a column for The New York Sun on “Why I Let My 9-Year-Old Take The Subway Alone,” I figured I’d get a few e-mails pro and con.
Two days later I was on the Today Show, MSNBC, FoxNews and all manner of talk radio with a new title under my smiling face: “America’s Worst Mom?”
Yes, that’s what it took for me to learn just what a hot-button this is — this issue of whether good parents ever let their kids out of their sight. But even as the anchors were having a field day with the story, many of the cameramen and make up people were pulling me aside to say that THEY had been allowed to get around by themselves as kids– and boy were they glad. They relished the memories!
Had the world really become so much more dangerous in just one generation?Yes — in most people’s estimation. But no — not according to the evidence. Over at the think tank STATS.org, where they examine the way the media use statistics, researchers have found that the number of kids getting abducted by strangers actually holds very steady over the years. In 2006, that number was 115, and 40% of them were killed.
Any kid killed is a horrible tragedy. It makes my stomach plunge to even think about it. But when the numbers are about 50 kids in a country of 300 million, it’s also a very random, rare event. It is far more rare, for instance, than dying from a fall off the bed or other furniture. So should we, for safety’s sake, all start sleeping on the floor?
Well, upon reading that, I’m sure that some people will. But — let’s hope it doesn’t catch on. It’s crazy to limit our lives based on fear of a wildly remote danger. And yet, as I started speaking to people about kid safety in the last few days, I heard things that strike me as completely bizarre. One dad in an upscale suburb of New York, for instance, “lets” his 11-year-old walk one block to her best friend’s house –but | | | |
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