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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:29:21 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
they've been working this group for YEARS, waiting to get enough evidence to go in. It may seem like one phone call got the job done, but that was just the final catalyst.
"Working this group for years" would imply they had enough evidence early on to suspect child abuse and as was said earlier, "honestly believed that young girls were being forced into having sex with anyone it would be my duty as a social worker to get that child to a safe place". So why leave children in there for years to suffer abuse?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:37:40 AM
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Consecrated2God
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Come on--this isn't Waco or Ruby Ridge. No one is dead here. Let's give the goverment a little credit here for that, okay?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:44:27 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
Come on--this isn't Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Did they or did they not show us what the government is willing to do to citizens?
quote:
Let's give the goverment a little credit here for that, okay?
Allright, you may have trampled on constitutional rights again but so far this time you have not killed anyone. Good job.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:45:16 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
quote:
they've been working this group for YEARS, waiting to get enough evidence to go in. It may seem like one phone call got the job done, but that was just the final catalyst.
"Working this group for years" would imply they had enough evidence early on to suspect child abuse and as was said earlier, "honestly believed that young girls were being forced into having sex with anyone it would be my duty as a social worker to get that child to a safe place". So why leave children in there for years to suffer abuse?
They did suspect a lot of things, but they had no proof that any was going on. They had no tips or any information from someone inside the compound. And yes, there are still legal hoops to jump through if you simply suspect something. Texas law does tend to favor the rights of property owners, not the rights of the government to go onto someone's property.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:50:38 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
They did suspect a lot of things, but they had no proof that any was going on.
Just found this (and know a lot of folks do not like worldnet but the truth is the truth no matter the messenger)
"after carefully reading all the news reports covering activities of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I am left wondering if the action by the state was excessive.
An investigation of the compound had been under way for four years. A confidential informant, a former member of the sect, was providing authorities with details of activities.
The raid was prompted by an anonymous call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl who was being held against her will and claimed to have been raped and abused by a 50-year-old registered sex offender named Dale Barlow. He is on probation in Arizona for a 2007 conviction for marrying and impregnating another 16-year-old girl.
In other words, the chief suspect was known, in advance, not to be in the ranch compound.
Since the raid, the 16-year-old girl who allegedly made the complaint has not been found. In fact, she may never have existed in the first place. Authorities now suspect a woman in another state, known for making unfounded accusations, may have been responsible for the call.
So let's look at the criminal evidence that has been discovered since the raid:
Investigators "found disturbed bed linens and a strand of hair that appears to be from a female head." (Wow! They'd find plenty of this at my house, too.)
12 of the kids have chicken pox. (12 out of more than 400)
No one is sure whether the children have been immunized. (No one is sure if they haven't been, either.)
Investigators say they have evidence of emotional, physical and sexual abuse of young children within the compound.
I don't doubt that some horrendous abuses took place within the walls of the YZR Ranch. Please don't label me as an apologist for this false religion, which I detest.
What I do doubt is that it was appropriate and legal to seize more than 400 children on such skimpy and non-specific evidence of real criminal abuse".
continued
quote:
Texas law does tend to favor the rights of property owners
Am in Texas
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 4/22/2008 12:02:09 PM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:56:46 AM
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stellaluna
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While I'm not necessarily denying all that is true, I'm also saying that if the adults in the compound would cooperate, this entire circus might not be such a circus.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:59:27 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
While I'm not necessarily denying all that is true, I'm also saying that if the adults in the compound would cooperate, this entire circus might not be such a circus.
Again.
"Using Waco as an example, "ok guys, what we have here is a "cult" who believes that an armagedon is on the way. So let's go in with many armed men and demand they give up"....."hey they are not welcoming us, lets get some tanks and even more armed people"....."hey, they are just fighting us more, don't they know we are here to help them?"
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 12:08:47 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
Did they or did they not show us what the government is willing to do to citizens?
The "goverment" is made up of many people. It's not some evil entity out there. Sometimes bad people get in power and do bad things. Janet Reno isn't Attorney General anymore.
quote:
Allright, you may have trampled on constitutional rights again but so far this time you have not killed anyone. Good job.
What did they do that trampled constitutional rights? Stellaluna explained how you can't just march in with no evidence. If they had, they might have trampled their constituional rights, but it sounds like they followed the proper laws and proceedures in this case. They don't always--trust me, I have first hand knowledge of that--but in this case it seems as if they did things legally.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 12:10:47 PM
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stellaluna
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Can't use Waco. That was a federal action, not a state action. They had been in Texas since the '30s and while the state had investigated abuse allegations, no action was taken by the state.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 12:15:06 PM
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P31W
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Nearly 140 women left the compound on their own when offered the chance.
So far we don't know what these women may have told the authorities. They may be cooperating with them and helping them to build a case against the cult.
Remember now these women who chose to leave the compound cannot return until after the investigation is complete. Changes are the cult will not allow them to return once the smoke clears. These women have left behind everything they know.
It appears to me they walked away with only the cloths on their backs.
I agree with Lisa that the government is not evil in and of itself. It is in my opinion doing exactly God told the government to do. Romans 13
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 12:22:44 PM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 12:18:13 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
Can't use Waco. That was a federal action, not a state action.
In this context yes you can and Ruby ridge too. It is not who did the action but what the action is to the one being acted upon.
You stated' if the adults in the compound would cooperate".
In the case of Waco you cannot bring Armagedon to people expecting Armagedon and then wonder why they are not cooperating.
Think about it for the day.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 12:20:07 PM
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P31W
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Tom,
What if you were a 14 year old boy and lived in a community where you were forced to have sex with a 57 year old man day after day. What would you want the government to do inorder to insure your rights were protected?
Romans 13
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
I believe what they have done is in obedience to the above passage.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 12:26:20 PM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 12:49:41 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
What if you were a 14 year old boy and lived in a community where you were forced to have sex with a 57 year old man day after day
Have repeatedly stated I do not agree with this "cult", "sect" "church", you name it and suspect that "child abuse" is happening. So there is no need to adress this.
quote:
What would you want the government to do inorder to insure your rights were protected?
Act within the law they are bound by. (for various reasons I question they did so and question motive to act now and not earlier or later))
Now my question for you.
There are many people in all levels of government who think that "homeschooling" is "child abuse", yet you are homeschooling your children day after day. What do you want the government to do to insure your rights were protected?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 1:36:30 PM
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P31W
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Homeschooling is not illegal.
Rape is.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 1:40:10 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
quote:
Come on--this isn't Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Did they or did they not show us what the government is willing to do to citizens?
Actually it showed us what Bill Clinton and Janet Reno are will to do.
Thanks
RC
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 1:54:20 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Homeschooling is not illegal.
Rape is.
Exactly.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 1:58:14 PM
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Consecrated2God
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TomTurn, you homeschool, correct? So do I. I was homeschooled all the way through, and so was my husband. That's just to give a little background on me.
I don't think it's wise to lump ourselves in with child abusers and rapists. I don't think it's a good idea to worry about the government coming after them because we think we are next, because it's not a logical leap. What we are doing is legal and right and good. Are we so insecure on that fact? I'm not afraid to separate myself from the abusers, because I'm not one. I don't need to worry that if abusers are prosecuted than I might also be prosecuted, because I don't abuse my children.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 3:08:55 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
Homeschooling is not illegal.
Rape is.
So you cannot answer my question of, "There are many people in all levels of government who think that "homeschooling" is "child abuse", yet you are homeschooling your children day after day. What do you want the government to do to insure your rights were protected?
And your proof of rape in this case is?
Or would it be best to wait until it is proven rahter than accuse now as guilty?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 3:13:21 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
While I'm not necessarily denying all that is true, I'm also saying that if the adults in the compound would cooperate, this entire circus might not be such a circus.
Amen.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 3:14:29 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
TomTurn, you homeschool, correct?
No children, never married.
quote:
I don't think it's wise to lump ourselves in with child abusers and rapists
For the umpteenth time, I am not defending child abuse and rape. But I am questioning the legallity of what has happened in total here, how it came about and why and if the government stepped out of its bounds
And I think I asked earlier what was "child abuse". The term is sure being thrown around a lot.
quote:
I don't think it's a good idea to worry about the government coming after them because we think we are next, because it's not a logical leap.
Do not think we are next, I know we are next. That is a promise from God. Would prefer to keep it at bay as long as possible.
A tryanny building in the governemnt will always start with "fringe elements"
quote:
What we are doing is legal and right and good.
Based on what so far in U.S. or Texas law??
quote:
I'm not afraid to separate myself from the abusers, because I'm not one
Can find thousands, maybe even millions in this country who without a doubt think you are a child abuser and the quicker they can get the law to agree all the better.
Would encourage all to read the article I linked to above
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 4/22/2008 3:42:48 PM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 3:17:31 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
quote:
TomTurn, you homeschool, correct?
No children, never married.
quote:
I don't think it's wise to lump ourselves in with child abusers and rapists
For the umpteenth time, I am not defending child abuse and rape. But I am questioning the legallity of what has happened in total here, how it came about and why and if the government stepped out of its bounds
Maybe we should wait until all the facts are in.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 4:20:24 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
Do not think we are next, I know we are next. That is a promise from God. Would prefer to keep it at bay as long as possible.
So you want to keep a promise of God at bay for as long as possible, even at the cost of defending the rights of abusers?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 4:51:35 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
defending the rights of abusers?
OK, for the past umpteenth time.
In this case, What proof of abuse? What conviction?
What is "abuse"? What is not abuse?
Defending the rights of one accused of abuse is not defending one proven to be an abuser.
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