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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 8:10:27 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
URForgiven:
What do you think about the social and personal growth advantages to repentance.
True repentance cannot help but cause a Christian to grow. It is the very purpose of repentance. Change is what it is all about. God is not going to change, He doesn't need to, so obviously it is us that needs to change.
There was a phrase that was used back in the day, "contact grace". The premise being that society benefits just from having contact with Believers. As we grow in grace, it cannot help but benefit society.
Not sure if that answers your question, but thats how the cookie crumbles for me.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 8:21:47 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Grace --> Conviction of one's sin --> Faith --> Forgiveness --> Repentance from Sin unto a love of holiness --> Increasing good works, decreasing individual sins.
The crux of the matter is what has been bolded.
While individual sins are decreasing, they have not been exterminated, neither has the old nature been eradicated.
Therefore each time a believer sins, there must be confession as well as repentance for that sin or sins in order to maintain fellowship with God. And that is what the apostle John teaches in his first epistle (which is addressed to believers who can and will sin regardless).
Let's take the case of the apostle Peter, who stoutly asserted that he would never deny the Lord. He did not really know himself, and he did in fact deny the Lord. After Peter denied the Lord, he repented and wept bitterly (Luke 22:62).
Was this a sin? Yes. Was Peter saved at the time he sinned? Yes. Did he need to confess his sin and repent? Yes. Did he confess his sin? Yes. See John 21:15-17. Was Peter restored? Yes. Did Peter then go on to be the leading apostle to the Jews? Yes.
To assert that Christians can sin and go on their way without confession and repentance is to reject the counsel of God and the plain teaching of Scripture. All talk about "grace" is vain babbling if we do not follow the pattern laid down in Scripture.
Grace demands daily self-examination and confession of sins. We are being perfected but we are not yet perfect in practice (although we are positionally).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 8:25:59 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2206
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Your answer is very obscure. Do you or do you not believe we have to ask for forgiveness after we are saved? "Let your yes be yes, or your no be no".
I have answered, I would never insult my Lord and Savior by asking Him to do what He has already done. I do not treat His sacrifice with contempt, as do those who believe His sacrifice was not enough.
Before you 1 John 1:9 me to death, you might want to look back at previous posts, as we have covered that ad nuseum already.
I guess the way I see things. . .
My parents love me, without conditions. Certainly it is not a perfect love, not on this side of heaven anyway, but they have done the absolute best to model the love of Christ towards me, their child.
I know that they will forgive me, no matter what I do. In fact, it's already forgiven. I don't have to do anything to earn their forgiveness, it has already been granted to me because I am their son, and they love me.
But, if I mess up, I don't just take advantage of that grace they have for me.
I apologize to them.
I humble myself before them, and even though it may not be necessary, I ask for their forgiveness. Even though I already have it, it is my act of submission to them.
And then, once that moment of repentance has taken place, I still have plenty of time to celebrate their grace in my life.
I guess I just think it never hurts to say you're sorry when you hurt someone. Man, or God.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 8:38:23 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Grace --> Conviction of one's sin --> Faith --> Forgiveness --> Repentance from Sin unto a love of holiness --> Increasing good works, decreasing individual sins.
The crux of the matter is what has been bolded.
While individual sins are decreasing, they have not been exterminated, neither has the old nature been eradicated.
Therefore each time a believer sins, there must be confession as well as repentance for that sin or sins in order to maintain fellowship with God. And that is what the apostle John teaches in his first epistle (which is addressed to believers who can and will sin regardless).
Let's take the case of the apostle Peter, who stoutly asserted that he would never deny the Lord. He did not really know himself, and he did in fact deny the Lord. After Peter denied the Lord, he repented and wept bitterly (Luke 22:62).
Was this a sin? Yes. Was Peter saved at the time he sinned? Yes. Did he need to confess his sin and repent? Yes. Did he confess his sin? Yes. See John 21:15-17. Was Peter restored? Yes. Did Peter then go on to be the leading apostle to the Jews? Yes.
To assert that Christians can sin and go on their way without confession and repentance is to reject the counsel of God and the plain teaching of Scripture. All talk about "grace" is vain babbling if we do not follow the pattern laid down in Scripture.
Grace demands daily self-examination and confession of sins. We are being perfected but we are not yet perfect in practice (although we are positionally).
Peter was saved at the time he denied the Christ? Really? He was saved before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? You may want to reconsider that one.
There is nothing anywhere in the Bible about a Believer ever being out of fellowship with God. Period. God is not dealing with Believers based on our sins. The sin issue for God has been settled.
There is no pattern of confession for the forgiveness of sins, nor confession in order to remain in fellowship with God, anywhere under the new covenant, for Believers.
There is nothing under the new covenant about daily self-examination for Believers.
What you are presenting is simply not Biblical.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/23/2008 9:52:55 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 9:54:46 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Your answer is very obscure. Do you or do you not believe we have to ask for forgiveness after we are saved? "Let your yes be yes, or your no be no".
I have answered, I would never insult my Lord and Savior by asking Him to do what He has already done. I do not treat His sacrifice with contempt, as do those who believe His sacrifice was not enough.
Before you 1 John 1:9 me to death, you might want to look back at previous posts, as we have covered that ad nuseum already.
I guess the way I see things. . .
My parents love me, without conditions. Certainly it is not a perfect love, not on this side of heaven anyway, but they have done the absolute best to model the love of Christ towards me, their child.
I know that they will forgive me, no matter what I do. In fact, it's already forgiven. I don't have to do anything to earn their forgiveness, it has already been granted to me because I am their son, and they love me.
But, if I mess up, I don't just take advantage of that grace they have for me.
I apologize to them.
I humble myself before them, and even though it may not be necessary, I ask for their forgiveness. Even though I already have it, it is my act of submission to them.
And then, once that moment of repentance has taken place, I still have plenty of time to celebrate their grace in my life.
I guess I just think it never hurts to say you're sorry when you hurt someone. Man, or God.
We are not talking about being sorry, we are talking about denying that that forgiveness you know is there...is there. These people are saying that if you don't do certain things that forgiveness will go away, or that your parents will disown you as their child.
You know that your parents love you and forgive you unconditionally, these people do not. For them that forgiveness is conditional.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/23/2008 10:04:11 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 5:47:43 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
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No that is wrong URF, that is not what we are saying or at least I'm not saying that. I am not denying that forgiveness has been granted us or is conditional. However, since you brought it up, as you have fully well seen, 1John 1:9 does support that we must confess, the promise comes that He is just to forgive us. Again there is a lack of humility in your present belief.
Paul does direct us to examine ourselves:
1 Cor 11:28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
2 Cor 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith: examine yourselves!Or do you not recognize this about yourselves. that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test.
So it seems that Ezra is weel grounded in this argument.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 8:18:08 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
No that is wrong URF, that is not what we are saying or at least I'm not saying that. I am not denying that forgiveness has been granted us or is conditional. However, since you brought it up, as you have fully well seen, 1John 1:9 does support that we must confess, the promise comes that He is just to forgive us. Again there is a lack of humility in your present belief.
Paul does direct us to examine ourselves:
1 Cor 11:28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
2 Cor 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith: examine yourselves!Or do you not recognize this about yourselves. that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test.
So it seems that Ezra is weel grounded in this argument.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that God's forgiveness is unconditional, and then in the next breath say it is conditional based upon whether we confess. That is double mindedness.
1 John 1:9 is addressed to those who walk in the dark. Christians are those who walk in the light.
The humility is not in the confession, it is in the repentance; in submitting yourself to dependence upon Him and His sufficiency.
The verses you quote have nothing to do with what we are talking about, and you already know that. And there is certainly nothing there about 'daily' anything.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/24/2008 8:31:38 AM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 9:09:04 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
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Sop what exactly, does 1 John 1:9 mean? Did he put that in here just to fill up a piece of paper? it is there for a reason. I don't see what is hard about this. If we confess it , He will forgive it. We will be judged before the judgment seat, you have already seen those verses. You can not pick and choose certain verses and ignore others. That is double-minded.
Read MHC here:http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/1Jo/1Jo001.html
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 9:27:29 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Sop what exactly, does 1 John 1:9 mean? Did he put that in here just to fill up a piece of paper? it is there for a reason. I don't see what is hard about this. If we confess it , He will forgive it. We will be judged before the judgment seat, you have already seen those verses. You can not pick and choose certain verses and ignore others. That is double-minded.
Read MHC here:http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/1Jo/1Jo001.html
As I said we have already covered this, if you want to read back in this thread.
But, I will indulge you. You have said yourself that John is addressing the Gnostic heresy. 1 John 1:9 is speaking to those Gnostics, not believers. Believers are those in 1 John 1:7...
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Are you a Believer? Do you follow Christ? Are you in Christ? If the answer is yes...then you walk in the light.
This is the same John who writes in John 8:12...
"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Christians are those who "walk in the Light". We always walk in the Light, because we are in Him, Who is The Light. Jesus is the Light.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 10:33:08 AM
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rileykins
Posts: 173
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Your answer is very obscure. Do you or do you not believe we have to ask for forgiveness after we are saved? "Let your yes be yes, or your no be no".
I have answered, I would never insult my Lord and Savior by asking Him to do what He has already done. I do not treat His sacrifice with contempt, as do those who believe His sacrifice was not enough.
Before you 1 John 1:9 me to death, you might want to look back at previous posts, as we have covered that ad nuseum already.
I guess the way I see things. . .
My parents love me, without conditions. Certainly it is not a perfect love, not on this side of heaven anyway, but they have done the absolute best to model the love of Christ towards me, their child.
I know that they will forgive me, no matter what I do. In fact, it's already forgiven. I don't have to do anything to earn their forgiveness, it has already been granted to me because I am their son, and they love me.
But, if I mess up, I don't just take advantage of that grace they have for me.
I apologize to them.
I humble myself before them, and even though it may not be necessary, I ask for their forgiveness. Even though I already have it, it is my act of submission to them.
And then, once that moment of repentance has taken place, I still have plenty of time to celebrate their grace in my life.
I guess I just think it never hurts to say you're sorry when you hurt someone. Man, or God.
We are not talking about being sorry, we are talking about denying that that forgiveness you know is there...is there. These people are saying that if you don't do certain things that forgiveness will go away, or that your parents will disown you as their child.
Hi URForgiven
And I wonder too why it's only the forgiveness that we have in Christ that goes away when we, "fall out of fellowship" with God? If we "lose our fellowship with God" as the keep-short-accounts-crowd say we do when we sin, then why wouldn't all of the other wonderful spiritual blessings that we've been freely given in Christ also go away until we confess, repent? Why wouldn't we also have to keep asking God to redeem us? Keep asking God to deliver us from the power of darkness? Keep asking God to reinstate us as partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light? Keep asking God to translate us into the kingdom of his dear Son when we sin?
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Col. 1:12-14)
I do have to correct you on one thing though....I'm not a brother, I'm a sis, 
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 11:05:50 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5291
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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Well here is another condition for forgiveness to go along with confession and repentance;
(Mat 6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 11:29:59 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Your answer is very obscure. Do you or do you not believe we have to ask for forgiveness after we are saved? "Let your yes be yes, or your no be no".
I have answered, I would never insult my Lord and Savior by asking Him to do what He has already done. I do not treat His sacrifice with contempt, as do those who believe His sacrifice was not enough.
Before you 1 John 1:9 me to death, you might want to look back at previous posts, as we have covered that ad nuseum already.
I guess the way I see things. . .
My parents love me, without conditions. Certainly it is not a perfect love, not on this side of heaven anyway, but they have done the absolute best to model the love of Christ towards me, their child.
I know that they will forgive me, no matter what I do. In fact, it's already forgiven. I don't have to do anything to earn their forgiveness, it has already been granted to me because I am their son, and they love me.
But, if I mess up, I don't just take advantage of that grace they have for me.
I apologize to them.
I humble myself before them, and even though it may not be necessary, I ask for their forgiveness. Even though I already have it, it is my act of submission to them.
And then, once that moment of repentance has taken place, I still have plenty of time to celebrate their grace in my life.
I guess I just think it never hurts to say you're sorry when you hurt someone. Man, or God.
We are not talking about being sorry, we are talking about denying that that forgiveness you know is there...is there. These people are saying that if you don't do certain things that forgiveness will go away, or that your parents will disown you as their child.
Hi URForgiven
And I wonder too why it's only the forgiveness that we have in Christ that goes away when we, "fall out of fellowship" with God? If we "lose our fellowship with God" as the keep-short-accounts-crowd say we do when we sin, then why wouldn't all of the other wonderful spiritual blessings that we've been freely given in Christ also go away until we confess, repent? Why wouldn't we also have to keep asking God to redeem us? Keep asking God to deliver us from the power of darkness? Keep asking God to reinstate us as partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light? Keep asking God to translate us into the kingdom of his dear Son when we sin?
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Col. 1:12-14)
I do have to correct you on one thing though....I'm not a brother, I'm a sis,
rileykins
Well then, Amen sister!
Perhaps you would like to explain to RC why Mat 6:15 does not apply to us as new creatures in Christ? I am a little too busy today to get into the whole old covenant/new covenant thing. If not, I will get to it when I have the time.
Glad to meet another sister in Christ! Peace.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 11:41:28 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
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Luke 18:13
"Bit the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away.was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me, the sinner!" 14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.
1 John is addressing the Christian community because of heretical teachings.
My little references in the column of my bible refer to the following in 1:9,
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
Pro 28:13 He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, But he who confesses and forsakes {them} will find compassion.
What do you make of this? I still do not understand how it says this boldly and you deny that it means what it says. What other scripture does the rest of the world have wrong?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 11:49:28 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 947
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Luke 18:13
"Bit the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away.was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me, the sinner!" 14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.
1 John is addressing the Christian community because of heretical teachings.
My little references in the column of my bible refer to the following in 1:9,
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
Pro 28:13 He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, But he who confesses and forsakes {them} will find compassion.
What do you make of this? I still do not understand how it says this boldly and you deny that it means what it says. What other scripture does the rest of the world have wrong?
It is entirely possible to confess and not repent, but it is impossible to repent without confessing.
People are constantly confessing, and they are constantly confessing the same sins! Have they repented?
What you are quoting is how God dealt with man under the old covenant. We are not under the old covenant are we?
Gotta run. Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 12:07:17 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
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Do you not realize the NT quotes and uses the OT? The new covenant didn't dismiss the old. Do you really believe that Jesus gave up His practice of Judaism? Check out His teachings again. The NT does not void the OT, in fact the entire OT is a type and shadow of the NT
URF quote:
"It is entirely possible to confess and not repent, but it is impossible to repent without confessing."
At least we agree on something.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 1:32:41 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5291
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is entirely possible to confess and not repent, but it is impossible to repent without confessing.
Excuse me, people change thier mind about things without confessing to God that they have sinned all the time. It is called arrogance.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 2:03:20 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1168
Joined: 11/8/2007
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It seems there is a real problem with differentiating between atonement(salvation) and halachah(lifesyle). We see in the revelation recorded by Yochanan(John) that the Lamb that is able to open the scroll was slain at the creation of the earth. Now, if we believe this Lamb is Yeshua(Jesus), then our sin was atoned for at that time and the whole of the Tanach is not for atonement, but for proper living.
Now what will really toast your matzah is the fact that, those who are saved, have been saved from the creation of the earth. Therefore, all repentance is about halachah. As Paul tells us, those He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to His image.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 2:13:22 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 173
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Luke 18:13
"Bit the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away.was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me, the sinner!" 14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.
Hi deliveredarling
For a believer today to be beating his breast and asking God to be "merciful to me, the sinner", would be asking God for something that He's already done for us in Christ Jesus. For a believer today to be asking of the Lord such a thing would be an insult to Him. Why? Because God in Christ has shown all of the mercy He possibly could to us on Calvary. If what the Lord did for us on Calvary wasn't enough of a display of His mercy towards us then what on earth is???!!
It's not humility to be asking the Lord for what He in Christ has already done for us, already accomplished for us, already freely given us in His Son. It's not humilty, it's unbelief if you want to know the truth.
A believer who is unwilling to lift up his eyes to Heaven because he or she fears that God will not have mercy them, has never learned the truth of Romans 5:1,2 .
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Do you think that a believer, who knows and understands that he or she HAS peace with God through Jesus Christ, would fear to even look up to Heaven? Or is peace with God another one of those things that goes away, along with forgiveness, that we must pray for God to give us back when we've "fallen out of fellowship" with God.
Believers HAVE peace with God. We HAVE access to our Father in Heaven. We don't lose these things because believers are IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST, means we are IN CHRIST. FOREVER sealed IN HIM. In order for God to cut us off, He would have to cut off His Son! And God isn't going to do that!!
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 3:47:13 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
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Bluethread, I think you may be correct in your assessment of our disagreements.( I'm not sure about the rest of what you said)
URF and Rileykins(cute name BTW)
Do you ever experience conviction? Ever feel guilty because of something you have done? What do you do about that? Ignore it because you are already forgiven? This doctrine you are teaching certainly sounds to me like "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine:but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires and will turn away from the truth, and will turn aside to myths". 2 Tim 4:3-4
I don't question whether we are forgiven, I know that we are. However, I question just what kind of relationship do we actually have with our Father when we don't need to go to Him because we are already perfect. I'm not perfect and when He convicts me, I am reminded just how very much I need a Savior, just how much I need Him close to me. If I don't admit my faults to Him, I am arrogant. I don't confess because I think I'm not forgiven, I confess and repent because I need to recognize what I am. If I were sinless and completely holy, I wouldn't need to confess anything. Until the day I stand before Him, I won't be sinless or perfect.
URF, the Lord's prayer was an example to His disciples(and us) of how to pray. Why would He give this example to non-believers? Who would they pray to, better yet why would they have wanted to pray? Your explanation of this makes no sense. So you think His disciples weren't saved?
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/24/2008 6:12:39 PM
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