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I asked a person (who has BTW posted on this thread) if they had stopped messing up since being saved or since they've arrived at the understanding that we could walk free and never sin. I waited for a response (yes or no) because I promised them I would call them a big fat Liar if the responded in the affirmative.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

[
First, I'm not sure what "messing up" means to you, LBolt. Every Christian, regardless of their level of spiritual maturity, makes mistakes, gets sick, has negative emotions, forgets things, etc. These imperfections and human frailties are NOT deliberate sinning, although Satan may readily use them to tempt us to willful disobedience. So, obviously, I have not "stopped messing up", even though I am sinless at this moment.

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We`ll all be sinless in heaven, not sinless in Seattle. Until then we will continuously sin. Some habitually, like 1 John 3:6 tells Christians not to. All naturally will mess-up because of our fallen DNA as 1 John 1:8 verifies. But sinning nontheless.

By the way, what is the difference between messing-up and sinning?

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ORIGINAL: Walker311
Nope! We all have the capability to sin due to the flesh and the ability to choose not to due to the Holy Spirit. Also, how did Lucifer sin in heaven?

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o let me share with you how it works.

Our parents were sinners. We have their DNA. Their DNA is sinful. Therefore we are and will be sinners until we die. When we become Christians we should sin-less, but we are still sinners. God has not as yet removed your sinful DNA. He will remove it the day you die.

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ORIGINAL: Walker311

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Nope! We all have the capability to sin due to the flesh and the ability to choose not to due to the Holy Spirit. Also, how did Lucifer sin in heaven?

messing up- kind of like "I can't help falling in love" or "oops! I did it again".
sinning- grabbing an old friend arm in arm and knowing better cause they always get you in trouble.

Good answers everyone. "Walker311" if I read you correctly your saying we mess-up when we can`t help or control our actions, so as a result we make a wrong judgment call. This does indeed happen to all of us because of our imperfect DNA. Only Jesus was perfect and never made a wrong judgment call anywhere. Jesus never messed-up, not even when He chose Judas the betrayer as His disciple. All His choices were made within the scope of His Father`s will. That`s a far cry from me, because I mess-up all the time.

I also agree with "drmark`s" answer in Post#58 except for the word "perfect" he inserted before "Love of Christ". Because we all "mess-up" we are not yet perfect. It is never God`s will for any of us to mess-up, even though God has found a way to miraculously still use us despite our many shortcomings. Ps.103:14 tells us this about God "for He knows how we are formed, He remembers that we are dust." The good news is when we get to heaven we will no longer "mess-up". So if messing-up is contrary to God`s will, are we not sinning if we do something contrary to the will of God?

How did Lucifier sin in heaven? PRIDE! As "Ephesians4_32" mentioned in Post#57, Lucifer sinned in heaven, but then God threw him out of heaven. In the new heaven, where according to Rev.21:4, the old order of things will have passed away and there will be no more sin. How do I know this? Here`s Rev.21:4. "There will be no more death or morning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." There will be no more death, meaning sin, which results in death, will also be gone. The evidence that non of us have reached this "perfect" point in our sanctification process yet is the fact that 100 years from now all of us will be dead. Even "drmark" admits that he has not stopped messing-up yet. ??WHY?? Because we still all have our inbret sinful DNA, meaning we`re not perfect and thus we`re all destined for death.

So if anybody thinks they`re sinless in Seattle and your still around 150 years from now without having died physically, you have proven your point. If you can reach a point in your spiritual walk with God where you will always choose to never sin or mess-up, you may never die. Where there`s sinless perfection there can not be any physical death either. The two are not compatible. The only Person who never experienced death without being a sinner Himself was Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God. He died because He came to take upon Himself our sin. He was made sin for us. So unless we`re raptured, we`ll all die physically because we`re still all sinners. I just pray that the people reading this post are all saved sinners saved by grace through faith in Christ alone.

_____________________________

"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." Isa. 40:8 Greetings- Frankman

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I also agree with "drmark`s" answer in Post#58 except for the word "perfect" he inserted before "Love of Christ". Because we all "mess-up" we are not yet perfect.

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ORIGINAL: Walker311
Also, how did Lucifer sin in heaven?

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ORIGINAL: drmark

Great! Now let's see if I can help you understand that Christian perfection is NOT the "inability to mess up"! God is really not interested in our messing up - God is interested in our desire to love Him with all our being. That is the true meaning of perfection as understood in the NT.

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I believe the key word is desire. I believe on judgment day God will judge us in accordance to our desire to obey and love Him, and not by our frail inability to accomplish sinless perfection according to God`s high and Holy standards.

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ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

Justification: Christians have been set free from the penalty of sin.
Sanctification: Christians are being set free from the power of sin; we are no longer slaves to sin.

When He appears, we shall be like Him!

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It's like some believe they are already there.

They have attained holiness and perfection now.

But, we know that is not possible, is it ?

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They are already in a glorified state ?

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ORIGINAL: drmark
Every Christian, regardless of their level of spiritual maturity, makes mistakes, gets sick, has negative emotions, forgets things, etc. These imperfections and human frailties are NOT deliberate sinning, although Satan may readily use them to tempt us to willful disobedience. So, obviously, I have not "stopped messing up", even though I am sinless at this moment.

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Sure, if you redefine what sin is everybody can be sinless!! I hear that rationalizing sin away from my ultra -liberal, clinically left professors at school every day.
THat's rich , DR!
It's not sin it's a mistake :))) it's not sin it's negative emotions release:) I didnt do it on purpose, i forgot :) From sex to homosexuality, laziness and anger, all can be explained away using your methodology, dr.

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The problem is that yours is not what real definition of sin is. Precisely our imperfections, and frailties and such are responsible for sin, we cant blame our sin on Adam or nerves, or government, or negative emotions - we sin because we are sinners, and you do, too!
If something is called a different name it's not changing the thing.

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Sure, if you redefine what sin is everybody can be sinless!! I hear that rationalizing sin away from my ultra -liberal, clinically left professors at school every day.
THat's rich , DR!
It's not sin it's a mistake :))) it's not sin it's negative emotions release:) I didnt do it on purpose, i forgot :) From sex to homosexuality, laziness and anger, all can be explained away using your methodology, dr.

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Every Christian, regardless of their level of spiritual maturity, makes mistakes, gets sick, has negative emotions, forgets things, etc. These imperfections and human frailties are NOT deliberate sinning, although Satan may readily use them to tempt us to willful disobedience. So, obviously, I have not "stopped messing up", even though I am sinless at this moment.

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DR, to omit multitude of confusing the issue wording ( with the help of enough rethoric we can prove the earth is flat ;) let's see what you are saying:

I am sinless at the moment. Not that i am perfect, but what i do wrong is not sin, it's negative emotions, forgetfullness, sickeness, etc .

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ORIGINAL: bob97

Is not sin anything that falls short of the glory of God? Anything less than that goodness He hates.

Bob

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ORIGINAL: drmark

No, Odeliya, this is incorrect. Our sinful, carnal natures are "precisely responsible" for our sins, NOT our fallen, frail, imperfect humanness. We must blame our sin squarely on our deliberate, willful choice to disobey God, not on involuntary, unintentional mistakes of life. When we have a correct understanding of sin and the sinful nature then we can allow God to do something about it. That something is called entire sanctification in my doctrinal tradition, and it works! Admitting constant defeat and impotence over both deliberate and unintended "sins" will never work.