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RE: Oh Really?

 
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[Poll]

War in Iraq


We are in Iraq because of oil
  27% (112)
We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate
  8% (35)
We are in Iraq to protect Israel
  3% (16)
We are in Iraq to stop terrorists
  33% (139)
We are in Iraq for some other reason
  26% (107)


Total Votes : 409


(last vote on : 7/6/2008 2:15:48 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 5:13:08 PM   
TheoCentric

 

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doh! Should've seen that. No wonder Bush wants to go to Iran so badly. Iraq turned out so badly, let's take on another nation with false pretenses to go to war.

We know how close a relationship Iraq and Iran have always had. They're like blood brothers. After all, they're all Muslims, right?



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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 5:49:45 PM   
rlj


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quote:

That the dozens of cease fire resolutions over a dozen years from the UN were ignored? Yes.


What about the 29984 prohibited munitions? The 25,000 liters of anthrax? 500 tons of Sarin? The mobile biological weapons labs? The advanced nuclear arms? I'll go right to the horses mouth this was the case for war in Iraq and I'll highlight the only legitimate reasons for going to war:

quote:

Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction. For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

Almost three months ago, the United Nations Security Council gave Saddam Hussein his final chance to disarm. He has shown instead utter contempt for the United Nations, and for the opinion of the world. The 108 U.N. inspectors were sent to conduct -- were not sent to conduct a scavenger hunt for hidden materials across a country the size of California. The job of the inspectors is to verify that Iraq's regime is disarming. It is up to Iraq to show exactly where it is hiding its banned weapons, lay those weapons out for the world to see, and destroy them as directed. Nothing like this has happened.

The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax -- enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them -- despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents, and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. He clearly has much to hide.

The dictator of Iraq is not disarming. To the contrary; he is deceiving. From intelligence sources we know, for instance, that thousands of Iraqi security personnel are at work hiding documents and materials from the U.N. inspectors, sanitizing inspection sites and monitoring the inspectors themselves. Iraqi officials accompany the inspectors in order to intimidate witnesses.

Iraq is blocking U-2 surveillance flights requested by the United Nations. Iraqi intelligence officers are posing as the scientists inspectors are supposed to interview. Real scientists have been coached by Iraqi officials on what to say. Intelligence sources indicate that Saddam Hussein has ordered that scientists who cooperate with U.N. inspectors in disarming Iraq will be killed, along with their families.

Year after year, Saddam Hussein has gone to elaborate lengths, spent enormous sums, taken great risks to build and keep weapons of mass destruction. But why? The only possible explanation, the only possible use he could have for those weapons, is to dominate, intimidate, or attack.

With nuclear arms or a full arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, Saddam Hussein could resume his ambitions of conquest in the Middle East and create deadly havoc in that region. And this Congress and the America people must recognize another threat. Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.

Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes. (Applause.)

Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. (Applause.)

The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages -- leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind, or disfigured. Iraqi refugees tell us how forced confessions are obtained -- by torturing children while their parents are made to watch. International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning. (Applause.)

And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country -- your enemy is ruling your country. (Applause.) And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation. (Applause.)

The world has waited 12 years for Iraq to disarm. America will not accept a serious and mounting threat to our country, and our friends and our allies. The United States will ask the U.N. Security Council to convene on February the 5th to consider the facts of Iraq's ongoing defiance of the world. Secretary of State Powell will present information and intelligence about Iraqi's legal -- Iraq's illegal weapons programs, its attempt to hide those weapons from inspectors, and its links to terrorist groups.


Wow that is an awful lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the only legitimate reason for going over there. I especially liked how he mentioned Saddam's weapons then mentioned what would happen if AQ had them for 9/11 as he mentions that Iraq and AQ were friendly then he says next time AQ might just use those weapons. That was good spin.

That was from the 2003 state of the union address.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html

< Message edited by rlj -- 4/15/2008 5:56:10 PM >


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-Roger

1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
Post #: 5652
RE: Oh Really? - 4/16/2008 8:29:11 AM   
stamper_ben


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quote:

That was from the 2003 state of the union address.
And I thank you for bolding the parts in it that back up my post.

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Post #: 5653
RE: Oh Really? - 4/16/2008 9:19:55 AM   
jkdjr25


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Whatever reasons I may have had for wanting our troops to come home there's now one that rises to the top of the list.

121 of our nations heroes have killed themselves this year alone. Suicide rates among members of the armed forces is on the rise and the reason is obvious. They don't get the time off that they need to amp down from the psychological pressures of the war. More and more the reality of just how bad things are over there is coming to the attention of the nation.

Bring our troops home before more die needlessly by their own hand.

_____________________________

I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/16/2008 3:46:58 PM   
rlj


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quote:

And I thank you for bolding the parts in it that back up my post.


Any time, though your post only had a small part of the story. What of the rest of the story- what about all of that time spent on the other reasons that were moot? ; )

_____________________________

-Roger

1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
Post #: 5655
RE: Oh Really? - 4/16/2008 10:56:38 PM   
stamper_ben


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My way of thinking is that the rest of the story is the bottom line - That we went because the UN wouldn't back their own resolutions and the US Congress voted to fund this war.

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 5:38:32 AM   
TheoCentric

 

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Seems like we should go after Israel then, since there are more unbacked U.N. resolutions against them as well.

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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 8:02:09 AM   
stamper_ben


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Has Congress voted to fund a military action against Israel?







I thought not.

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 8:30:41 AM   
TheoCentric

 

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That's beside the point. We fund and support Israel's inaction on U.N. Resolutions. We support Israel's displacing of over a million people in Lebanon in the Summer of 2006. We support Israel's continue human rights violations with regards to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Why would we fund military action against Israel. Over half of Congress is in the employ of the Israeli Lobby. Who do think was the biggest backer of the Iraq War? Hint: it wasn't CAIR.

_____________________________

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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 8:36:22 AM   
jkdjr25


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric

That's beside the point. We fund and support Israel's inaction on U.N. Resolutions. We support Israel's displacing of over a million people in Lebanon in the Summer of 2006. We support Israel's continue human rights violations with regards to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Why would we fund military action against Israel. Over half of Congress is in the employ of the Israeli Lobby. Who do think was the biggest backer of the Iraq War? Hint: it wasn't CAIR.


Couple of things. In recent years the U.N has become more and more anti religion and antisemetic. They keep demanding Israel turn over land that is theirs by Biblical mandate. God gave the land to Israel and is very clear about what happens to those nations who demand that the lands of His people be divided.

Second the land has never, historically, belonged to the Palestinian people, back in 142 A.D. (I think) the Romans has all the maps changed to replace Judea with Palestine as a refrence to the old enemy of the Jewish people, the Philistines. This was done as a means to try and break their spirit as Rome and it's emperor were trying to wipe out the Jewish people.

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 8:51:15 AM   
TheoCentric

 

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That's not entirely true and is left up to proper Biblical interpretation. I went off-topic with the issue with Israel, but I did bring it back in.

Btw, the U.N. resolutions were passed in 1967, not in this decade, or even this century.

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 8:51:57 AM   
stamper_ben


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You're absolutely correct Chris!

That is besides the point. Now the question arises, why can't you address the point of Saddam and the UN resolutions without the rabbit trail?

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:20:45 AM   
TheoCentric

 

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Why is one justified and the other isn't?

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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:22:44 AM   
RichLP


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I really find it amazing how people can some adamantly refuse to admit the facts that show we went to war on false pretenses.

I find it equally interesting and perhaps somewhat worrying that despite the colossal suffering Iraqis have been suffering since the war started, what with the little electricity, running water, kidnappings, gang violence, sectarian death squads, 4 million refugees out of 25 million Iraqis... that we here in America can actually think this war made their country better... when Iraqi is one of the world's most failed states.

Oh well.


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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:24:52 AM   
RichLP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Why is one justified and the other isn't?



Because virtually every time the UN voted a resolution against Israel (many more than ever against Iraq), the US sided w/ Israel and voted no.

Like it or not, when a superpower is your staunch, stalwart ally in the UN, refuses to censure your use of overwhelming military force against civilians, and keeps mum while you have an undeclared nuclear arsenal, you can pretty much do anything you want.

Oh, and having an efficient lobby functioning within that superpower helps too.


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"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:26:20 AM   
stamper_ben


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Rabbit droppings on that path....

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:30:00 AM   
wing2000

 

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quote:

My way of thinking is that the rest of the story is the bottom line - That we went because the UN wouldn't back their own resolutions and the US Congress voted to fund this war.



It's always amusing when people who would otherwise villify the UN use the violation of UN resolutions as a basis for war.

Imagine, if you will 9/11 had not occurred....and President Bush announces we are going to war with Iraq because Sadaam had violated UN resolutions. Do you really think the American people or the Coungress would have supported such a venture?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:39:44 AM   
RichLP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's always amusing when people who would otherwise villify the UN use the violation of UN resolutions as a basis for war.


Selective research and conclusions to fit one's likings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wing2000
Imagine, if you will 9/11 had not occurred....and President Bush announces we are going to war with Iraq because Sadaam had violated UN resolutions. Do you really think the American people or the Coungress would have supported such a venture?


Never.

I have made this point here at least 10 times and I'll make it 11: the Bush administration used public outrage stemming from 9/11 to bolster support for the war. Dick Cheney insisted on an Saddam-OBL link and we were made to believe that Iraq had somehow supported the 9/11 terrorists and been involved.

Without a 9/11, a realist presidential administration would not have launched war on Iraq, as this venture would have (and did indeed) divert precious resources from the hunt after the REAL enemy - Osama Bin Laden.


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To all prowar people - 4/17/2008 9:40:47 AM   
RichLP


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How do you suggest the US can win in Iraq, since that's why John McCain says we can and will do under his presidency, if he wins?

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:48:08 AM   
cow451


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wing2000

quote:

My way of thinking is that the rest of the story is the bottom line - That we went because the UN wouldn't back their own resolutions and the US Congress voted to fund this war.



It's always amusing when people who would otherwise villify the UN use the violation of UN resolutions as a basis for war.

Imagine, if you will 9/11 had not occurred....and President Bush announces we are going to war with Iraq because Sadaam had violated UN resolutions. Do you really think the American people or the Coungress would have supported such a venture?


As this drags on, we will see Congress start undoing the funding, which is how another war was "wound down".

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 9:54:35 AM   
RichLP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451
As this drags on, we will see Congress start undoing the funding, which is how another war was "wound down".


Sooner or later the American people will realize that this war cannot be won under this policy, and we will have to withdraw - even though we've just opened our new megaembassy in Iraq.


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"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 1:39:11 PM   
stamper_ben


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In other Iraq news...
quote:

Lt. Colonel Jay Kopelman has written a harrowing book describing an extended conspiracy in Iraq involving members of Third Battalion, First Marines known as the Lava Dogs, reporters for National Public Radio, an Iraqi of dubious character who “fixes” documents and even unlikely characters like ABC network employees who join together in multiple attempts to smuggle an Iraqi, code-named Lava, out of the country to America.

Military regulations are flaunted, disguises and unlawful concealment, lies and outright fabrications across the dangerous Red Zone, uncooperative Jordanian border guards and broad complicity among the U.S. Marine Corps make for a compelling conspiracy stretching from the Middle East to the shores of California.

Kopelman exposes his own central role in this tale of international intrigue and even reveals the apparent complicity of his commanding officers. The explosive revelations in the book have been published by the Lyons Press under the title . . .
More here...

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RE: Oh Really? - 4/17/2008 2:52:48 PM   
cow451


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stamper_ben

In other Iraq news...
quote:

Lt. Colonel Jay Kopelman has written a harrowing book describing an extended conspiracy in Iraq involving members of Third Battalion, First Marines known as the Lava Dogs, reporters for National Public Radio, an Iraqi of dubious character who “fixes” documents and even unlikely characters like ABC network employees who join together in multiple attempts to smuggle an Iraqi, code-named Lava, out of the country to America.

Military regulations are flaunted, disguises and unlawful concealment, lies and outright fabrications across the dangerous Red Zone, uncooperative Jordanian border guards and broad complicity among the U.S. Marine Corps make for a compelling conspiracy stretching from the Middle East to the shores of California.

Kopelman exposes his own central role in this tale of international intrigue and even reveals the apparent complicity of his commanding officers. The explosive revelations in the book have been published by the Lyons Press under the title . . .
More here...

Your tax dollars at work.

_____________________________

Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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Back to Iraq news: violence continues - 4/17/2008 2:53:38 PM   
RichLP


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The Iraqi quagmire continues to be a very violent situation. Fatalities went up (again) in the past few days.

< Message edited by RichLP -- 4/17/2008 3:02:16 PM >


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