RE: Army criticizes itself

RE: Army criticizes itself (Full Version)

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War in Iraq

We are in Iraq because of oil

26% (113)

We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate

8% (35)

We are in Iraq to protect Israel

4% (17)

We are in Iraq to stop terrorists

34% (143)

We are in Iraq for some other reason

26% (112)

Total Votes : 420

(last vote on : 9/3/2008 8:45:27 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

RichLP -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/22/2008 1:05:14 PM)
Let me get this straight. John McCain, who has accused Barack Hussein Obama (Barack means "GOOD" and Hussein means "BLESSING;" BOTH words appear... in the OLD TESTAMENT! - to the chagrin of those here who like to harp about his name as allusions to Islam or to Islamic terrorists) of: - being prepared to trade defeat in Iraq for an electoral victory ... doesn't know that Iraq, the country where he wants to lead America to victory in, does not border Pakistan... ... and McCain's camp, despite all this, has stated he'd withdraw our forces if Iraq wanted us to get out. So what exactly is victory as far as McCain is concerned? And if what Obama proposed is close to what the Iraqi government wants - getting out in 2010? And if the Iraqi government now finds itself confident and able to take up more responsibilities in security, hence freeing our troops and enabling them to either return to the US or to be deployed to another theater such as Afghanistan, then why does McCain accuse Obama of being willing to forego victory when the IRAQIS IN CHARGE don't define a withdrawal in 2010 as "defeat?"

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/22/2008 1:21:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 Let me ask you this. In other words I will not see an answer to my quesiton... quote: Have you ever been in a situation that was so horrific that you would do anything to not have to go back into it? Have you seen the meatgrinder that some of these men have seen? People being blown apart, some taking hours to die? I am well aware of the horrors of war, as where those who joined the military... John

rlj -> RE: War in Iraq (7/22/2008 1:30:22 PM)
quote: And if the Iraqi government now finds itself confident and able to take up more responsibilities in security, hence freeing our troops and enabling them to either return to the US or to be deployed to another theater such as Afghanistan, then why does McCain accuse Obama of being willing to forego victory when the IRAQIS IN CHARGE don't define a withdrawal in 2010 as "defeat?" Because victory in Iraq isn't just victory in Iraq. Victory in Iraq means we will have infinite use of their territory, resources and legal system to suit the needs of our foreign policy goals. This isn't really about freedom for Iraq it's just as much about Manifest Destiny and spreading our influence in that region of the world.

RichLP -> RE: War in Iraq (7/22/2008 1:46:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj quote: And if the Iraqi government now finds itself confident and able to take up more responsibilities in security, hence freeing our troops and enabling them to either return to the US or to be deployed to another theater such as Afghanistan, then why does McCain accuse Obama of being willing to forego victory when the IRAQIS IN CHARGE don't define a withdrawal in 2010 as "defeat?" Because victory in Iraq isn't just victory in Iraq. Victory in Iraq means we will have infinite use of their territory, resources and legal system to suit the needs of our foreign policy goals. This isn't really about freedom for Iraq it's just as much about Manifest Destiny and spreading our influence in that region of the world. Which means it's an imperialistic war. *ducking all the stones and accusations of "communist," "anti-American," etc etc etc etc etc.............

RichLP -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/22/2008 4:04:16 PM)
Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship. I will quote one of his military superiors: “I love Polous. We called him ‘Majit.’ None of the interpreters use their real Iraqi names. We didn’t want anyone knowing he was an American soldier.” “He was accepted better than any other interpreter by governors, tribal leaders, whomever we needed communication with." Because Polous was working so closely with his colonel, he had to go through a background check by military intelligence. “He was with me during every enemy encounter,” Sutherland said. - Col. David W. Sutherland of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division.

cow451 -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/22/2008 4:14:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship. I will quote one of his military superiors: “He was with me during every enemy encounter,” Sutherland said. - Col. David W. Sutherland of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division. Boo Hoo. Just another whiny immigrant wanting a freebie. Look at all the food, clothing, shelter and medical care he's already received. Now that his gravy train is running out, he's got those bleeding heart liberals at the ACLU (All Crying Liberals United) suing God's ordained and blessed United States government. Just send the guy back to Mexico and see how great it is there. [:@][sm=fireanger.gif][sm=crystreams.gif][sm=angertalk.gif]

Sophie11 -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/22/2008 5:56:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship. Yes of course he does, but I see nothing in the story saying he has been denied, only that there are delays, delays for everyone.

RichLP -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/22/2008 6:48:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP Iraqi-born US veteran sues government to receive American citizenship This is an interesting story. This young man has bravely served our country and he most definitely deserves to receive American citizenship. Yes of course he does, but I see nothing in the story saying he has been denied, only that there are delays, delays for everyone. I never said the story said he was denied. I am putting this story up to show that this Iraqi who fought for America deserves his citizenship, and that there "are delays for everyone" doesn't make his frustration or anger any less warranted - all the more since the vast majority of those who are facing delays probably didn't face bombings while translating for US military personnel in Iraq.

rlj -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/22/2008 7:10:21 PM)
quote: I never said the story said he was denied. I am putting this story up to show that this Iraqi who fought for America deserves his citizenship, and that there "are delays for everyone" doesn't make his frustration or anger any less warranted - all the more since the vast majority of those who are facing delays probably didn't face bombings while translating for US military personnel in Iraq. He should have known what he was getting into when he signed up. I don't recall free and automatic citizenship going to every Tom, Dick and Mohamed who helps Americans. He should go apply to Sweden or Germany or even Syria they've been more than happy to help Iraqis out of the mess we made over there. /sarcasm off

cow451 -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/23/2008 9:48:22 AM)
Obummer has a good set-up on Iraq. If he wins the election and Iraq goes well, he gets to claim credit. If Iraq falters, he gets to blame his incompetent predecessor.

rlj -> RE: Army criticizes itself (7/23/2008 3:15:29 PM)
quote: Obummer has a good set-up on Iraq. If he wins the election and Iraq goes well, he gets to claim credit. If Iraq falters, he gets to blame his incompetent predecessor. Far more oppourtunistic than his competition with the cry of "stay the course for 100 years!"

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 12:54:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj I believe the government failed when they keep sending them on tour after tour after tour. That has always been my point. The counterpoint I have always got was "this is what the signed up for" which I find both true yet absurd. Only because of the complete ignorance and utter stupidity with which this administration has conducted this war are men and women forced to serve all of these tours. Wouldn't that only give those already in the military a leg to stand on? Those who joined after the moron took office can't be much smarter than the man running the show, right? It's not like he got stupid overnight... quote: My belief has been since before Dubya celebrated that major operations had come to an end was their wasn't enough troops. Years of playing Risk and Stratego? quote: Now we keep recycling the same troops over and over and over and they're human. For some or many how much are they expected to do? Never in all of my life would I ever expected US troops to be required to do more than 2 tours in any war. That would depend on how many years they signed up for... Many in my family figured they go home once Germany and Japan were done with... No talk of tours... quote: It is absolutely stupid and shortsighted on the part of the Administration to conduct it this way. Depends... One of the problems my father faced in war was dealing with newbies... Not only did they get themselves killed they many times put others at risk... quote: Hopefully for them though since they love all of these tours McCain will win the election and they can do this for another 100 years whether Iraq wants us there or not. Since that's what they signed up for, am I right war supporters? Not speaking as a war supporter, I do support honoring one's word... Would the bible let Christian break their contract because they don't wish to play army man no more? John

rlj -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 7:53:22 AM)
quote: Years of playing Risk and Stratego? No I just listened to Bush, Powell and the rest in 1991, followed the 80s war and learned for myself. So yeah I listened to Republicans and that helped shape my opinion. That is probably my problem though isn't it? quote: That would depend on how many years they signed up for... Many in my family figured they go home once Germany and Japan were done with... No talk of tours... They serve tours until we say they're done serving tours. Over 58,000 troops have served passed their enlistment which is what they signed up to do-serve as many tours, as many days for as many years as we tell them. quote: Not speaking as a war supporter, I do support honoring one's word... Would the bible let Christian break their contract because they don't wish to play army man no more? Where have I ever advocated that? I have never condoned anywhere that soldiers should break their contract. I am condemning a shortsighted admnistration for wearing some of these men and women down. I have posted articles and sources for 2 years on this. The fact that our government would expect our men and women to serve more than 1 tour to me is absurd. But hey they signed up for never ending tours for as long and as many as the government chooses to send them. quote: Depends... One of the problems my father faced in war was dealing with newbies... Not only did they get themselves killed they many times put others at risk... If the officers of our armed forces are incapable of dealing with draftees, instilling the training, knowledge and discipline into them needed to do their jobs then honestly they deserve to go shovel manure in Louisianna and we need to replace them with officers who can. Our soldiers were green when they went into Baghdad initially. If they served in Afghanistan first they were green when they drove the Taliban out of Kabul. There comes a point where soldiers cease to be battle hardened and become war weary. Is that good?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 1:14:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj No I just listened to Bush, Powell and the rest in 1991, followed the 80s war and learned for myself. 80's war? quote: They serve tours until we say they're done serving tours. Over 58,000 troops have served passed their enlistment which is what they signed up to do-serve as many tours, as many days for as many years as we tell them. When you join the military you obligate yourself beyond the 4 or 6 years, that's common knowledge... quote: Where have I ever advocated that? I have never condoned anywhere that soldiers should break their contract. So you believe they should honor their contract? quote: I am condemning a shortsighted admnistration for wearing some of these men and women down. I have posted articles and sources for 2 years on this. The fact that our government would expect our men and women to serve more than 1 tour to me is absurd. But hey they signed up for never ending tours for as long and as many as the government chooses to send them. 1 tour? Btw, they did sign up for it... quote: If the officers of our armed forces are incapable of dealing with draftees, instilling the training, knowledge and discipline into them needed to do their jobs then honestly they deserve to go shovel manure in Louisianna and we need to replace them with officers who can. Sure thing, Napoleon... The field of battle is a great place to train them... Of course that means your medics will surely get some more training as well... Have you ever served in battle? quote: Our soldiers were green when they went into Baghdad initially. They were not draftees forced into battle after boot camp with little or no real training... quote: If they served in Afghanistan first they were green when they drove the Taliban out of Kabul. There comes a point where soldiers cease to be battle hardened and become war weary. Is that good? Depends... At the rate you're going in a few posts you'll have a tour of duty down to a week... John

jkdjr25 -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 1:27:16 PM)
Most of us do believe that a person should honor their contracts, unless of course said contract involves disobeying God but that's another matter. However I'd like to think that most of us can also understand why a person who's been through a situation like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not want to do so. We have to seriously consider the mental well being of our soldiers as well as the physical. When a soldier pays a hitman $500 to shoot him in the knee, when a soldier straps a backpack full of tools to his back and jumps off the roof of his house, when any soldier deliberately wounds himself to that extent so they don't have to go back into a meatgrinder we have an obligation to take a second look at what's going on. That's the responsibility of the Commander in Chief and of the people. We know some of these things have happened and incidents of them are on the rise. So the question is what do we do about it because something is seriously wrong.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 1:59:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 However I'd like to think that most of us can also understand why a person who's been through a situation like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not want to do so. We have to seriously consider the mental well being of our soldiers as well as the physical. When a soldier pays a hitman $500 to shoot him in the knee, when a soldier straps a backpack full of tools to his back and jumps off the roof of his house, when any soldier deliberately wounds himself to that extent so they don't have to go back into a meatgrinder we have an obligation to take a second look at what's going on. There hasn't been a war or a conflict where soldiers haven't done something like the above to get out of serving... John

jkdjr25 -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 2:02:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 However I'd like to think that most of us can also understand why a person who's been through a situation like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not want to do so. We have to seriously consider the mental well being of our soldiers as well as the physical. When a soldier pays a hitman $500 to shoot him in the knee, when a soldier straps a backpack full of tools to his back and jumps off the roof of his house, when any soldier deliberately wounds himself to that extent so they don't have to go back into a meatgrinder we have an obligation to take a second look at what's going on. There hasn't been a war or a conflict where soldiers haven't done something like the above to get out of serving... John And this is countering my point how? It goes to the question of tour length. The standard is supposed to be 12 months on, 24 months off to give the soldier time to come down from being in such a hypertensive situation. At the moment we aren't giving them anywhere near the time that is required, by our own military code, to do so. We keep sending them back, again and again and again, with no relief. Is it any wonder that some are taking drastic means to not have to go back?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 2:32:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 And this is countering my point how? It's nothing new... it's not some recent devolopment... quote: It goes to the question of tour length. Really... If that's the case during WWII when men spents years straight fighting in condition at worse are worse than Iraq should have acted out in numbers unheard off... quote: The standard is supposed to be 12 months on, 24 months off to give the soldier time to come down from being in such a hypertensive situation. At the moment we aren't giving them anywhere near the time that is required, by our own military code, to do so. What military code are you speaking of? UCMJ? quote: We keep sending them back, again and again and again, with no relief. Is it any wonder that some are taking drastic means to not have to go back? What is the percentage? I know quite a few serving having served myself and being from a military family and from conversation the percentage of people bailing out is pretty much on par with what goes on during a conflict... Some people shouldn't join... They like to play army man, but when the you know what hits the fan they only joined to pay for school... John

rlj -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 2:39:18 PM)
quote: 80's war? That war Iraq fought in the '80s? quote: 1 tour? Btw, they did sign up for it... And you are right. I have acknowledged that. Thanks for pointing out what I have said several times. : ) Has it sunk into your head yet all the times I said it and you have repeated it back to me? ; ) quote: Sure thing, Napoleon... The field of battle is a great place to train them... Of course that means your medics will surely get some more training as well... Have you ever served in battle? How much battle experience did they have when we first went over there? They did pretty good in my book. quote: Depends... At the rate you're going in a few posts you'll have a tour of duty down to a week... I have said no such thing. Ever. I have never complained about the 12 month, 13 month or the 15 month tour. Ever. There's a search function in CW where you can take a couple of minutes to show me where I said any of this and you can perhaps re-enlighten me. : ) So what has been my point? That serving multiple tours over and over with lack of time off is asking too much of many of our soldiers. I have linked to articles of this. The military admits it, the physicians and doctors who deal with some of these soldiers admit it, the counselors who deal with the families and children of these soldiers admit it even Dubya has admitted it.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 2:55:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj That war Iraq fought in the '80s? The dynamics of that war has what to do with the matter at hand? That war was more like WWI quote: And you are right. I have acknowledged that. Thanks for pointing out what I have said several times. : ) Has it sunk into your head yet all the times I said it and you have repeated it back to me? ; ) Just making sure... And when you say 1 tour are you speaking of only front line troops are everybody who is in country? quote: How much battle experience did they have when we first went over there? They did pretty good in my book. Of course they did, they fought in a conventional manner against a force that had no air support, was for most part completely surrounded and a foe that had been already soundly defeated prior... As well a good part of the leadership hand been around for the first Gulf War… quote: The military admits it, the physicians and doctors who deal with some of these soldiers admit it, the counselors who deal with the families and children of these soldiers admit it even Dubya has admitted it. Why take it out on me that you can and do care less? What is being taken out on you? I know more than a few folks fighting in Iraq and they don't speak of this... Maybe they are more the professional solider type... John

rlj -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 3:41:26 PM)
quote: Just making sure... And when you say 1 tour are you speaking of only front line troops are everybody who is in country? I would say everyone in the country because there really isn't a front line. I didn't like the sound of that last quote so I edited a little bit because it sounded too harsh. Since you got the snippet you struck me as being a bit angry or something over this. I just swung onto graveyard shift this week to so I can be easily offended and such so I yanked that part of the quote. No one's fault you know I did decide to work at a swing shift shop. ; ) quote: The dynamics of that war has what to do with the matter at hand? That war was more like WWI Part of the dynamic was they would drag this out a very long time. Part of it was the brutal force of Saddam that held the country together and without it the country would be destabilized. It was also believed that if Iran would have won and Saddam would have been removed that a friendly to Tehran government would take its place. quote: Of course they did, they fought in a conventional manner against a force that had no air support, was for most part completely surrounded and a foe that had been already soundly defeated prior... As well a good part of the leadership hand been around for the first Gulf War… The troops that fought the insurgency started out green and our command was green and had no idea how to handle this. Putting in some new faces I don't see would have made that big of a difference in the first couple years of the war. When one considers that Centcom was preparing the victory parades and drawing down of the forces in 2003 it becomes obvious that everyone in charge was clueless so the troops wouldn't have had special training for the post Saddam conflicts anyway. quote: I know more than a few folks fighting in Iraq and they don't speak of this... Maybe they are more the professional solider type... That's a good thing. It also used to be understood that it was best to give the troops the option to stay multiple tours or not and have an adequate number of troops ready for replacements and a draft if needed. That was when Administrations would conduct wars with some semblence of competence.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 3:56:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj I would say everyone in the country because there really isn't a front line. Given how many folks it takes to put a single person into battle whendo you plan on joining? quote: I didn't like the sound of that last quote so I edited a little bit because it sounded too harsh. Since you got the snippet you struck me as being a bit angry or something over this. I just swung onto graveyard shift this week to so I can be easily offended and such so I yanked that part of the quote. No one's fault you know I did decide to work at a swing shift shop. ; ) Note... I don't get angry here... I forgave the man that raped my children... Nothing here can get me even mildly worked up... As well, I don't take what is posted as a threat to me or personally... Oh, and being that I have worked in the bottled water industry for over 20 years I know more about nasty shifts than I care too :P quote: The troops that fought the insurgency started out green and our command was green and had no idea how to handle this. Putting in some new faces I don't see would have made that big of a difference in the first couple years of the war. When one considers that Centcom was preparing the victory parades and drawing down of the forces in 2003 it becomes obvious that everyone in charge was clueless so the troops wouldn't have had special training for the post Saddam conflicts anyway. I am speaking from what I was told by folks who had some knowledge of what was going on, or more like what was supposed to happen... They thought the level of fighting after the topple of Sadam would be such that Special Forces types units would be the common method of dealing with the after threat with support from regular forces... quote: That's a good thing. It also used to be understood that it was best to give the troops the option to stay multiple tours or not and have an adequate number of troops ready for replacements and a draft if needed. That was when Administrations would conduct wars with some semblence of competence. The last thing the folks I know fighting want is the draft... John

rlj -> RE: War in Iraq (7/24/2008 4:22:10 PM)
quote: Given how many folks it takes to put a single person into battle whendo you plan on joining? Can't because of my hearing. It's worse now than it was almost 20 years ago when I tried to get in and I thought the guy giving the tests at the recruitment center was going to bust me for not saying my hearing was as bad as it was. Not like I'd try and pull a fast one to get in since I really wanted to be in the Navy. I mean all those guys in Europe lied about their ages in 1914 but I digress... one can lie about your age but one can't lie to the audiologist. :X quote: I am speaking from what I was told by folks who had some knowledge of what was going on, or more like what was supposed to happen... They thought the level of fighting after the topple of Sadam would be such that Special Forces types units would be the common method of dealing with the after threat with support from regular forces... One reason (but not the main reason) given for not removing Saddam in 1991 was the fear of putting the country into anarchy. It was looked at as a buffer to Iran with Saddam as the glue that held the factions together. When the staff people did their war games and estimated what kind of troop involvement it would take they came to 400k which does seem kind of high to me. Speaking for myself when we went in with 150kish or whatever the number was I was suprised and impressed at how we did because the Iraqi armed forces hadn't concluded an 8 year war a few months prior. I assumed we'd draft and send in troops after the victory. When we got major operations are over, Democracy is sometimes messy and there was no sign we would increase our troop commitment I was horrified. quote: The last thing the folks I know fighting want is the draft... For the sake of discussion that could be why many of the soldiers handle their multiple tours with such professionalism so they don't have to deal with the amateurs. I do however have faith that we would have been fine with draftees. I honestly know of no other way that we could have done this with more troops except with a draft.

cow451 -> RE: War in Iraq (8/6/2008 2:35:27 PM)
Great News: Iraqi Oil flowing!!!! Iraq making money hand over fist!!!!!!!!!!!LINK U.S response: Brother, can you spare a dime? The Iraqi government could end the year with as much as a $79 billion budget surplus as ever-increasing oil revenues pile on top of leftover income the Iraqis still haven't spent on their national rebuilding effort, congressional auditors say.

mrsrevbob -> RE: War in Iraq (8/7/2008 9:43:49 AM)
quote: I just want to know what happened to the search for the person behind 9/11 (Osama bin Laden). My sentiments, exactly!

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