Romans 14 (Full Version)

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Guitar900 -> Romans 14 (4/13/2008 3:58:18 PM)

Someone directed me to this Verse and I was wondering what exactly does it mean?

Romans 14:14

14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+14

Thoughts?



Ezra -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 4:51:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

Someone directed me to this Verse and I was wondering what exactly does it mean?

Romans 14:14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.


At the time that this was written, there were both Jewish and Gentile Christians within the church at Rome. Since the Law of Moses specifically classified foods into "clean" and "unclean", many Jewish believers continued to maintain their scruples regarding food, and frowned on those who regarded all foods as equally clean.

Christ had already taught that it was not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes from within the heart of man. IOW we are not "contaminated" by the foods consumed, but by the indwelling sin nature from which every sin arises (Mk. 7:14-23).

Therefore Paul also taught that ever since the coming of Christ, all foods and meats are to be regarded as clean, and received with thanksgiving, and that they are sanctified by prayer (1 Tim. 4:4,5). This was also in response to some Gnostic teachings about abstention from meats and marriage, which are called "doctrines of demons".

When Paul says that if anyone regards a food as unclean, then it is unclean to him, what he is stating is that those with scruples about the "cleanness" of a food will continue to make distinctions between clean and unclean foods, since they are still "weak in the faith" (Rom. 14:1). Their scruples should be respected (v.3).



Guitar900 -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 5:47:06 PM)

So this Verse is basically talking about food?

If an individual thinks a certain food is unclean, they are not strong in their faith?
As a result, those who believe all food is clean are strong in their faith?


Does this Verse have anything to do with the unpardonable sin?



GrahamCracker -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 6:02:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar90]

Does this Verse have anything to do with the unpardonable sin?


Nothing.



Liveloved -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 6:31:14 PM)

quote:

So this Verse is basically talking about food?

If an individual thinks a certain food is unclean, they are not strong in their faith?
As a result, those who believe all food is clean are strong in their faith?


Does this Verse have anything to do with the unpardonable sin?


You've already received good answers to your question. But you might want to understand it in the context of the remainder of the 14th chapter. . ."for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Bless ya![:)]



Guitar900 -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 8:39:21 PM)

So if an individual thought it was wrong to buy things, does that mean it is wrong?



ta_mosquito -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 8:59:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

So if an individual thought it was wrong to buy things, does that mean it is wrong?


According to Romans 14:23,
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

So I'd say yes, for someone who thinks it's a sin to buy things, for him it's a sin.



Guitar900 -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 9:59:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

So if an individual thought it was wrong to buy things, does that mean it is wrong?


According to Romans 14:23,
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

So I'd say yes, for someone who thinks it's a sin to buy things, for him it's a sin.


Should this be read in context?

That doesn't seem to make any sense.

So what you're proposing is, some individuals are not allowed to purchase things because it is a sin. How will they survive in life?

When they live by themselves or start a family, they are not allowed to purchase a car? A house? Not even food? No entertainment? How does a certain individual live in society if they are prohibited to buying items.


I mean, not all thoughts come from ourselves. What happens if it was a bad thought? A thought of fear?



colliefan -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 10:31:24 PM)

quote:

A thought of fear?


Scripture tells us that perfect love casts out fear. It also tells us God will supply all of our needs. When we live in that love and we walk in step with the HS and do as He bids. Also, remember the evil one wants us to live in fear.



Guitar900 -> RE: Romans 14 (4/13/2008 10:40:31 PM)

I realize not all thoughts come from ourselves.

I am just wondering about Romans 14:14.

Hypothetical situation: So if one day you thought it was an unpardonable sin to buy food, etc., then it becomes an unforgivable sin to buy stuff?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
According to Romans 14:23,
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

So I'd say yes, for someone who thinks it's a sin to buy things, for him it's a sin.


Should this be read in context?

That doesn't seem to make any sense.

So what you're proposing is, some individuals are not allowed to purchase things because it is a sin. How will they survive in life?

When they live by themselves or start a family, they are not allowed to purchase a car? A house? Not even food? No entertainment? How does a certain individual live in society if they are prohibited to buying items.


I mean, not all thoughts come from ourselves. What happens if it was a bad thought? A thought of fear?



LCannon -> RE: Romans 14 (4/14/2008 12:19:05 AM)

My Romans 14:1-"The notion of[this gifting]isn’t to make distinctions in narrow judgments but to bring the gifts of faith together in obedience. 2 One’s judgment can eat all things in freedom yet some regard such freedom as weakness so the weak eat vegetables only. 3 Neither boldness or frailty are regarded with contempt since the action isn’t the obedience for God has accepted both of them. 4 What business is it of yours since it’s not your servant to order about? Is it not His Master’s responsibility whether he stands or falls for the Lord’s discipline will make him stand or fall."



Liveloved -> RE: Romans 14 (4/14/2008 8:51:12 AM)

quote:

So what you're proposing is, some individuals are not allowed to purchase things because it is a sin. How will they survive in life?

When they live by themselves or start a family, they are not allowed to purchase a car? A house? Not even food? No entertainment? How does a certain individual live in society if they are prohibited to buying items.


I mean, not all thoughts come from ourselves. What happens if it was a bad thought? A thought of fear?


You are asking and answering some very good questions for yourself. That is why OUR THOUGHTS are not what determine what is true. It is Jesus who is Truth and the Holy Spirit who leads us to all truth.

Our minds can have ALL kinds of thoughts. Many are not God or godly thoughts. So we must take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (IICor 10:5). We must DESTROY everything that we raise up (every thought and idle notion) against the knowledge of God---what He says.

You might also look at Colossians, chapter 2. Many people get caught up in elementary principles, the mere shadow things, having an allusion of godliness, 'the appearance of wisdom', but are self-made religion and self abasement which God says clearly are of NO value against fleshly indulgence!

Don't let YOUR thoughts be your measuring stick for what holiness is or does. Let your thoughts lead you to Jesus. Worship Him. Seek Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. He will lead you and guide you. Be in His word and let His word dwell RICHLY in you![:)]



ta_mosquito -> RE: Romans 14 (4/14/2008 2:28:28 PM)

I don't know anyone who has a conviction that buying ANYTHING is a sin. But if by some crazy circumstance there exists someone who has such a conviction, then to them it's a sin. In the meantime, someone who knows that there's no such sin can lovingly and with the Bible explain to them that buying things isn't a sin.

That's called teaching, helping Christians to grow in their faith.

I agree with Liveloved - God's word is the measuring stick, so if someone believes erroneously, they should be directed to the Scriptures.



Bluethread -> RE: Romans 14 (4/16/2008 6:50:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

Someone directed me to this Verse and I was wondering what exactly does it mean?

Romans 14:14

14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+14

Thoughts?


I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but a lot depends on how we define the word food. If this is saying that the "dietary laws" are done away with, how do we know that canabalism is wrong? Or is it? What about dog poop, razar blades or broken glass. Pardon the argument by extention, but where do we draw the line.

I personally see this as talking about sins of conscience not the defined mitzvot.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Romans 14 (4/16/2008 10:06:29 PM)

quote:

I personally see this as talking about sins of conscience


Me, too.

quote:

What about dog poop, razar blades or broken glass.


If you wanna eat 'em, go for it... but don't blame me for the consequences. [8D]



colliefan -> RE: Romans 14 (4/16/2008 10:33:39 PM)

quote:

If this is saying that the "dietary laws" are done away with, how do we know that canabalism is wrong? Or is it? What about dog poop, razar blades or broken glass. Pardon the argument by extention, but where do we draw the line.


Canabalism is against the law of the state. In terms of your choices these would cause definite harm to the human body. These aren't in the area of having a casual glass of wine or mug of beer.



Bluethread -> RE: Romans 14 (4/17/2008 12:57:06 PM)

quote:

colliefan:
Canabalism is against the law of the state. In terms of your choices these would cause definite harm to the human body. These aren't in the area of having a casual glass of wine or mug of beer.


Then are you saying that this passage is saying that canabalism acceptable to Adonai, or areyou just using the law of the land to avoid the question? Yes, wine and beer are not prohibited unless you have taken a nazarite vow. I am using arguement by extention to avoid having to go through a long list of substances to determine where you draw the line.


quote:

ta_mosquito:
If you wanna eat 'em, go for it... but don't blame me for the consequences.


That is precisely my point. The purpose of Ha Torah is(and always has been) to instruct us on how to avail ourselves of Adonai's blessings and avoid the curses. The point of this passage being that if there is an activity that does not carry a curse in and of itself, but you are cursed with a guilt conscience when you take part in it, it is best for you to not take part. The problem with saying that anything is food is that the term "food" then has no meaning and if the term is meanigless, how are we to interpret this passage.



DaveW -> RE: Romans 14 (4/17/2008 2:38:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
THis ties into the idea presented a few verses later:

Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

He takes a specific case and renders a judgement based on a general principle.

IOW: if you believe something is unclean or sinful (even if it is not in and of itself) then to you it IS unclean and sinful. In one sense, if you believe something commanded by GOd to be sinful, then you sin if you don't do it (disobeying God's command) and sin if you do, (violating your own conscience).



Guitar900 -> RE: Romans 14 (5/2/2008 8:14:01 PM)

Well I'm not saying buying stuff is a sin.

I thought about this over the past few weeks. So just because I am posting it today does not mean today is when I said it. I don't think buying stuff is wrong, unless you are buying pornographic material.



Annie64 -> RE: Romans 14 (5/4/2008 3:58:59 AM)

I used to have trouble with this passage because I thought that when a person came to Christ, they came with a lot of bad habits and over time the Lord would clean them up, so that as they grew stronger in their faith, they would leave more and more of the world behind them, and would do less and less worldly stuff. I couldn't understand why this passage said that it is a person who is weak in the faith that would feel guilty over things more. But my experience has borne it out. In my early days as a Christian, there were many things I didn't do, because I was afraid of dishonoring the Lord. And if I had done those things then, according to this passage, I really would have been dishonoring the Lord, simply because of how I thought about them. But over the years I have gained more and more freedom as I have learned more about Him. I never saw a movie in a theater until I was in my thirties. My first movie was Prince of Egypt. I have only in the last year or so become free to listen to and even purchase secular music. Now, I'm sure that no one else on these forums ever had a problem with those things, [;)] but I did. And it would have been wrong to do them when I did.



Bluethread -> RE: Romans 14 (5/5/2008 5:08:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitar900

Well I'm not saying buying stuff is a sin.

I thought about this over the past few weeks. So just because I am posting it today does not mean today is when I said it. I don't think buying stuff is wrong, unless you are buying pornographic material.


This goes to my question regarding how one defines food. If all things that are done in faith are clean then why do you say buying pornographic material is wrong. Pornography was common in Roman culture, yet Yeshua(Jesus) is not quoted as forbidding it He did clearify the commandment regarding adultry to include thoughts of adultry, but following an oft used interpretation of "it is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean" avoiding pornography could be seen as "denighing the sacrifice" of Yeshua(Jesus).

So, since we need not look to the Torah for interpretation of the "new testiment", do you believe this Scripture teaches that everyone is free to do what is right in his own eyes?



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