A question to the Messianic Brethren (Full Version)

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bob97 -> A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/13/2008 10:29:45 PM)

In doing a little study on the term Jew…I have to ask the Messianic brethren how they view them selves, Jewish or Israelite.

Is there a real legitimate term of Jew and if so how does it apply and where did it come from?

The reason to ask this question is because of the extreme differences of opinion in articles contained on the Net.

Abraham wasn’t a Jew…he was a Hebrew!

Bob



LBolt -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/14/2008 12:06:30 PM)

Jew,

Yahudah

YAH Praiser! Guess that makes me one. LOL! This seem to be dealing with the "Two House Teaching?"



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/14/2008 11:16:11 PM)

Well thanks for your reply LBolt....it seems like no one is interested or find it a silly question. On the other hand maybe no one feels qualified...but I find that hard to believe.

Actually I thought I had the answer and I did when I knew less about the subject.

Bob



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/14/2008 11:40:04 PM)

It will no doubt come as something of a surprise to most Christians to find that the literal word ‘JEW’ does not appear in the entire original text of the Bible, neither the Old nor the New Testaments. The original Hebrew of the Old Testament uses the word ‘Yehudim’, meaning ‘Judahite’. The original Greek of the New Testament uses the word ‘Ioudaios’, meaning ‘Judean’.

Bob



narnia -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/15/2008 12:31:13 AM)

I can't speak for others but for myself I do not refer to myself as Jewish. I will sometimes refer to myself as Messianic, or I will use the term used in the Bible for followers of Yeshua-Followers of The Way.

Jewish people get offended when others who have not converted to Judaism call themselves Jewish. In fact, they get so offended that they won't even listen to anything else you would say. Not to mention that if someone who really is Jewish comes to faith in Yeshua, the rest of the Jewish nation no longer believes him to be Jewish-even if he can prove biologically that he is Jewish.



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/15/2008 12:36:55 AM)

Thanks narnia...good to hear from you. Maybe we will get something going on this subject yet. I personally think there is a lot of history and current information to learn here.

Bob



DaveW -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/15/2008 7:40:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

The original Greek of the New Testament uses the word ‘Ioudaios’, meaning ‘Judean’.
And "Jew" is just a modern shortened form of Judean.

How one is identified as a Jew today is a question. There are varying ways. The tradition for the last 2000 years has been if your mother was Jewish so were you. That is still the way in Orthodox and most Conservative synagogues.

In Reform and Reconstructionist synagogues (and most Messianic synagogues as well) having either parent Jewish is good enough.

In Nazi Germany the standard was one Jewish grandparent was enough to get you thrown into the camps and ovens. So today that is the standard for "Right of Return" citizenship in Israel.



DaveW -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/15/2008 7:48:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: narnia

Not to mention that if someone who really is Jewish comes to faith in Yeshua, the rest of the Jewish nation no longer believes him to be Jewish-even if he can prove biologically that he is Jewish.
However, if you become a Hindu, bow down to hundreds of false idols, or become an athiest, you can still be considered a Jew in good standing with the Jewish community. But say you believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah, look out. The attitude seems to be "Anyone but him," referring to Jesus/Yeshua.

However, that seems to be changing at least in Israel. If you fought for the country, you have proved your loyalty and they will listen to the gospel.



Lapidoth -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/15/2008 3:26:15 PM)

I love old war movies.
It surprised me to watch one in particular one night.
The nazi was hunting the Jews in a town, but when
he spotted one, he didn't say, Come out Jew.

He said, Come out Yudah.

Without doing a lot of research I always assumed
that what we call Jews are all Israelites, as in descended
from Jacob. But for me Jew meant descendant of Judah.
Some of the places in the NT that does refer to "Jews"
seem to be referring to the Pharisees. Those that followed
the oral torah above the Torah.

It should get interesting as others ponder on this.



Bluethread -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/16/2008 2:20:44 PM)

After the kingdom was divided into Israel(greater Israel) and Yehudah(Yehudah and Benyamin), the term Israel lost favor due to the northern kingdom setting up an alter in Samaria. Therefore, they were refered to as Samaritans as an insult. In modern times the term Yehudim has been used to refer to all of the children of Israel to identify them with the kingdom of Yehudah from which the messiah is to come, though it was shortened through the ages to Jew in yet another attempt to turn it into an insult.

This kind of messy etimology is not peculiar to tis term, but is common to most names given to groups of people. For that reason I try to avoid labeling myself and others and focus on the words spoken and the content of the character.



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/16/2008 2:43:09 PM)

Bluethread...when you refer to the children of Israel are you referring to people of the nation in general or the House of Israel, the Northern Tribes?

Bob



Bluethread -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/16/2008 5:31:21 PM)

Sorry, these etimologies can get confusing. It might have read better if I had said, "In modern times the term Yehudim has been used to refer to all of the children of Yacov(Jacob) . . ."



narnia -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 12:00:57 AM)

quote:

However, if you become a Hindu, bow down to hundreds of false idols, or become an athiest, you can still be considered a Jew in good standing with the Jewish community. But say you believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah, look out. The attitude seems to be "Anyone but him," referring to Jesus/Yeshua.


I know, Dave. I don't agree with it, but at the same time, if folks want to be able to tell them about the Gospel, then they need to be aware of this, so that they don't inadvertently close the door themselves.

Bob,

You may be unaware of this, but Pesach starts Saturday night after sundown. Most folks are probably getting ready for that, and some of us are doing two Seders. You might not get many comments until next week sometime, since we are busy getting ready for Pesach!



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 1:02:43 AM)

Thanks narania...I had forgotten that.

Bob



Bluethread -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 12:34:54 PM)

With the double Shabbat, I am wondering about the difficulty of preparing the Pesach meal. Do I prepare it before Erev Shabbat and heat it up just before Pesach or do I prepare a simple meal on Shabbat just before Pesach? I might do some mixture ie, precook and reheat the meat, prepare instant mashed potatos and serve canned veggies.



DaveW -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 1:13:08 PM)

Double shabbat? Only the Saturday one limits your making a meal. You can cook as much as you want (but not for profit) on Sunday.



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 1:20:05 PM)

From a gentile prospective, would that be a problem only if 15 Nisan fell on a Friday? The High Sabbath on Friday and the normal Sabbath on Saturday, or maybe I’m missing the point because of ignorance.

Bob



Bluethread -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 1:33:33 PM)

By double Shabbat, I mean the weekly Erev Shabbat at sundown on what is called friday, and Pesach Shabbat which starts at sundown on what is called saturday this year. This not to start an argument regarding the counting of the omer, this problem will come in some other year for those whop differ with me this year.



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 1:42:11 PM)

Hi Bluethread...

I think I'm getting the picture now...normal Sabbath starting Friday evening and the High Sabbath starting Saturday evening...or am I still mixed up?

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 3:47:27 PM)

quote:

am I still mixed up?

Bob


Surely not!!!! lol.



Bluethread -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 3:51:45 PM)

Yes that is correct. The question I am proposing is when and how is one to prepare the Pesach meal.



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 3:58:11 PM)

I'm doing my best Lapidoth...I don't have a lot to work with. [:(]

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 3:59:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Yes that is correct. The question I am proposing is when and how is one to prepare the Pesach meal.


Following the trail of Exodus 12 we are to roast the lamb over the fire,
mama is making unleavened bread, kids are chopping bitter herbs.
So we eat between the evenings. Watch as the death angel goes throughout
the land at midnight, get up the next day, if we slept at all, borrow gold and etc. from
our neighbors and then we head out of town.

We don't stop until we get to Sukkot where we make some more unleavened bread.

Kinda makes me hungry right now.



bob97 -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 4:00:39 PM)

By the way...to my understanding Dave is correct, normal cooking on the High Sabbath, for the family anyway. We went through this when discussing the Crucifixion of Christ.

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: A question to the Messianic Brethren (4/17/2008 4:01:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

I'm doing my best Lapidoth...I don't have a lot to work with. [:(]

Bob


I understand fully.

I'm writing a haggada from scratch this year.
One reason I'm not lurking as much as ususal
and the fact that my son needed me to come
back to work. lol.

I'll post a copy of what I get together or send you a copy.

I'm taking the "leaven" out of the typical haggada.



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