Willfully Sinning? (Full Version)

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beamerjx3 -> Willfully Sinning? (4/13/2008 10:43:34 PM)

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What is the difference between willfully sinning and falling into or succumbing to temptation?

Does this verse mean that after believing in Jesus that we should never sin again or there is no more forgiveness for us?



LCannon -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/14/2008 12:47:40 AM)

Confess-“[His message] is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching that if you confess [obedience to] Jesus as Lord with your mouth and you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes resulting in righteousness and with his mouth he confesses resulting in [obedience].” Romans 10:8-10

Jesus' sacrifice/Victory/obedience fulfilled the Law(the old covenant)for all time and eternity past and future so our performance isn't the issue but the all sufficiency Jesus' sacrifice is. Elisabeth Elliot wrote there's no greater transgression nor is there an acceptable confession for a redeemed soul(since His blood atoned for all arrogance once for all)except to renew one's commitment to His Lordship and discipline.

'The first glance is a surprise, the second is temptation to indulge(BTW, both positively in conviction or disobedience)and the third is commitment.' Between the first glance and the second(entertainment of the thought) where most people decide their course. Usually, the external acting out is merely the end result of one's imagination.



redeemedsaint -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/14/2008 2:20:19 PM)

Willfully sinning is knowing that you are sinning, but you do it anyway. Temptation is much different, but God always provides a way out, if you choose to take it.



rcjames -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/14/2008 3:10:37 PM)

Wilful sin is knowing that something is sin, that it is wrong, that you are not supposed to do it the Holy Ghose is telling you not to do it; and you bow up, spit in God's face, and do it anyway.

You turn your back on God, deny the Holy Spirit, ignore the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, and cause your repentance to become a lie; and do it anyway.

It is no wonder wonder God put these verses in His Word.

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/14/2008 4:14:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

Confess-“[His message] is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching that if you confess [obedience to] Jesus as Lord with your mouth and you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes resulting in righteousness and with his mouth he confesses resulting in [obedience].” Romans 10:8-10

Jesus' sacrifice/Victory/obedience fulfilled the Law(the old covenant)for all time and eternity past and future so our performance isn't the issue but the all sufficiency Jesus' sacrifice is. Elisabeth Elliot wrote there's no greater transgression nor is there an acceptable confession for a redeemed soul(since His blood atoned for all arrogance once for all)except to renew one's commitment to His Lordship and discipline.

'The first glance is a surprise, the second is temptation to indulge(BTW, both positively in conviction or disobedience)and the third is commitment.' Between the first glance and the second(entertainment of the thought) where most people decide their course. Usually, the external acting out is merely the end result of one's imagination.


Great post, LCannon...



doinkdom -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/14/2008 4:32:00 PM)

Hebrews...

one tough book!



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/15/2008 6:05:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beamerjx3

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What is the difference between willfully sinning and falling into or succumbing to temptation?

Does this verse mean that after believing in Jesus that we should never sin again or there is no more forgiveness for us?


Hebrews 10:26 is not talking about regular sins. It is talking about the sin of rejecting Christ. More likely it is talking about people who having heard of Christ, still reject Him.



rcjames -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/15/2008 7:52:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Hebrews 10:26 is not talking about regular sins. It is talking about the sin of rejecting Christ. More likely it is talking about people who having heard of Christ, still reject Him.


And what do you base this interpretation on?

Thanks
RC



butterfly123 -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/15/2008 11:04:36 PM)

I have not seen this POV discussed before, but, this seems like a potentially valid idea. Paul was writing to believers, those who were saved. Why could these verses not be written from the idea that Christians when they sin should have the mindset that yes indeed there is a God, who will discipline them as a Father disciplines his children? When a Christian sins, there is no excuse most of the time because we knew it was wrong and did it anyways, and since there is no valid excuse we really should fear the Lord.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/16/2008 7:59:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Hebrews 10:26 is not talking about regular sins. It is talking about the sin of rejecting Christ. More likely it is talking about people who having heard of Christ, still reject Him.


And what do you base this interpretation on?

Thanks
RC


Earlier discussion in the chapter. (Time constrains me from giving a fuller answer. I trust you can get the gist of my point in the few words I present.)

"Having...boldness...to enter the holiest by the blood of Jesus..by a new and living way..." (Verses 19-20) The entire book talks about the superiority of Jesus and His sacrifice. Chapters 3-4, for example, draws a parallel between those who failed to believe as the Old Covenant was being initiated and the Jews who were failing in their faith as the New Covenant was being initiated.

Chapters 8-10 talks about the fading away of the old covenant to make way for the new (8:13).

IMHO, Hebrews is not so much about general Christian apostasy (there is that application which cannot be avoided) but about Jews who refused to go on with God as His new economy was being brought to light. While they were saved by faith under the Old Covenant, they were in danger of being swept away to destruction as the New Covenant was being inaugurated.

We can debate whether or not anyone would "lose their salvation" as 10:26 suggests, but this thread really should not be about that.

And I am not arguing that normal sins are irrevelent to the context. I am saying that no sins would be remitted under the old system. Anyone seeking forgiveness of sins under the old system would be rejected because it would no longer be considered acceptable to God. Such sinning of rejecting the new covenant is what sinning willfully is talking about.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/16/2008 5:47:02 PM)

Another interpretation that merits consideration, but I have not actually done the background work on it.

From what I understand, in the OT, serious willful sins like murder had not sacrificial provision under the law. For example, David said, "Thou desirest not sacrifice ; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." (Ps 51:16-17)

The writer of Hebrews may be comparing sins for which there was no OT sacrificial provision and the sin of rejecting Christ. Therefore, rejecting Christ would be much more severe a sin than deliberate sins like deliberate murder.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/16/2008 6:10:13 PM)

RC,

Back to the point I was making earlier. Take a look at Heb. 10:16-18.

"This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,

I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."

Here, the author promises a New Covenant and saying, in essence, that the old one no longer applies or there would come a time in which the OC would no longer apply (8:13).

The author invites the readers to boldly enter the new covenant (verse 20), with confidence (verse 22), maintain it (verse 23) etc.

Hitting verse 26, it seems easy to see how he would be saying that rejecting this new covenant would allow no alternative, the old one being done with. Rejective it would be deeply offensive to God---

38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him."

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. (10:38-39)

If anyone believes that deliberately sinning regular sins are in view, exactly where, in the context, are any of those mentioned? I see none. With all of the challenges to trust Christ, believe in Christ, maintain your relationship faithfully--what could be clearer than failure to do so would the sins the author has in view?



rcjames -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/16/2008 6:26:19 PM)

I just love watching the gyrations of those who go to ducking and running and dodging when any passage seems that it might contradict their holy grail of OSAS.

Thanks
RC



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/17/2008 6:48:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I just love watching the gyrations of those who go to ducking and running and dodging when any passage seems that it might contradict their holy grail of OSAS.

Thanks
RC

It must be personal reasons then, and not biblical ones. For you didn't present any counter to my posts. The HOLY GRAIL, sir, is your own.

How dare you suggest the motivations of the interpretation I offer? For your information, with regard to some passages I am open to the idea of NOT OSAS. So that CANNOT be my motive. I typically do NOT go the OSAS threads. Look in them thoroughly and you will not find five posts altogether in any OSAS thread.

I don't know why the first first refuge you jump to is to question my motivations unless you haven't done your homework on passages. Is that some trick you learned? If you can't figure out how to answer someone, question their motivations? If you disagree with my views, discuss them in context and not what you vainly imagine to be my motivations. I offered it open and above board---for exactly the reasons I said. There were no other.



rcjames -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/17/2008 8:39:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
It must be personal reasons then, and not biblical ones. For you didn't present any counter to my posts. The HOLY GRAIL, sir, is your own.

How dare you suggest the motivations of the interpretation I offer? For your information, with regard to some passages I am open to the idea of NOT OSAS. So that CANNOT be my motive. I typically do NOT go the OSAS threads. Look in them thoroughly and you will not find five posts altogether in any OSAS thread.


Jeeeezzzzzz GrahamCracker take a long breath in and two short breaths out; now isn't that better. Might try decaf also. That was a generic general post of mine, and was not addressed to anyone in particular. I am not backward about putting folks names when I am addressing them.

So you are proposing that Heb 10:26 is telling us that when a person is presented the Gospel (you claim that is recieving the knowledge of the truth) that if they do not accept Christ then and there: then they fall onder this most troubling verse. That just can't be.

That would mean that an individual gets one shot at salvation, and if you Don't accept Christ on the first opportunity, you can never approach the cross again for salvation. That just does not compute.

So I humbly reject your thesis on this particular passage.

Thanks
RC



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/17/2008 10:16:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

So you are proposing that Heb 10:26 is telling us that when a person is presented the Gospel (you claim that is recieving the knowledge of the truth) that if they do not accept Christ then and there: then they fall onder this most troubling verse. That just can't be.

That would mean that an individual gets one shot at salvation, and if you Don't accept Christ on the first opportunity, you can never approach the cross again for salvation. That just does not compute.

So I humbly reject your thesis on this particular passage.

Thanks
RC


Huh? Where did you get this "one shot deal" out of my post? Exactly where? I didn't say it, didn't imply it nor was I thinking it. I certainly would reject such a concept out of hand--because it cannot possibly follow when one considers the history of belief and unbelief. When people rejected Christ in the times of the gospels, God gave them a loooonnng protracted period of time to consider carefully His claims.

Your counterpoint is irrelevant because it is not inherent to the interpretation.



rcjames -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/17/2008 12:54:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Huh? Where did you get this "one shot deal" out of my post? Exactly where? I didn't say it, didn't imply it nor was I thinking it. I certainly would reject such a concept out of hand--because it cannot possibly follow when one considers the history of belief and unbelief. When people rejected Christ in the times of the gospels, God gave them a loooonnng protracted period of time to consider carefully His claims.


Which exactly is the point of my post. This verse is definately presented to the Saved (not the unsaved as you claim) these folks "Recieved the knowledge of the truth" not simply heard the Gospel. So I think it is referring to Christians. And it says those that wilfully sin afterwards have to be judged on that sin.

This lines up with;

(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Which is written to;

(2Co 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Saints (Christians), Timothy (a brother in Christ and leader of the first century Church), and Paul includes himself by saying "We".

So plainly and simply the Scripture is telling us that we all must be judged, and that those who wilfully sin should be very concerned becasuse on of the outcomes of that Judgment could be;

(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now since the prospect is presented in Scripture that a Saint might end up devoured it flies in the face of the Holy GRail OSAS folks. They get really fiesty over this passage.

That is all I am saying.

I do not know if you are OSAS or not; are you?

I am not trying to make this an OSAS thread, just saying that those folks usually refuse to even consider this verse without much gyration and twisting of plain simple Scripture.


Thsnks
RC



GrahamCracker -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/17/2008 1:49:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Huh? Where did you get this "one shot deal" out of my post? Exactly where? I didn't say it, didn't imply it nor was I thinking it. I certainly would reject such a concept out of hand--because it cannot possibly follow when one considers the history of belief and unbelief. When people rejected Christ in the times of the gospels, God gave them a loooonnng protracted period of time to consider carefully His claims.


Which exactly is the point of my post. This verse is definately presented to the Saved (not the unsaved as you claim) these folks "Recieved the knowledge of the truth" not simply heard the Gospel. So I think it is referring to Christians. And it says those that wilfully sin afterwards have to be judged on that sin.


RC,

You are right that it is often presented as you say. My reference to OSAS was not in defense of it, but to suggest that it neither supports not denies it one way or other. It is simply not about that. My mention of it was to acknowledge that it (the passage) tends to stimulate discussion along that line. So we are in agreement that people use it. I only wanted to say that it is completely unnecessary to my interpretation--either pro or con. One can reject OSAS and accept my interpretation without any problems whatsoever.


quote:

Now since the prospect is presented in Scripture that a Saint might end up devoured it flies in the face of the Holy GRail OSAS folks. They get really fiesty over this passage.

That is all I am saying.

I do not know if you are OSAS or not; are you?


Thsnks
RC


RC,

If the following answer I give sounds like an evasion, I will simply accept the accusation without comment. While it is true that I tend toward the OSAS, my firmness on that issue really depends on who asks and on what day of the week you're asking. I think people tend to invoke passages out of context in order to support their pet doctrines.

A number of the dangers presented in the NT about consistent disobedience suggest any number of penalties without once mentioning hell. That's not to say there is no hell or any weird universalitist idea like that. I would never say that. I don't take kindly to eisegesis and try to avoid it if I can.



rcjames -> RE: Willfully Sinning? (4/17/2008 1:57:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Huh? Where did you get this "one shot deal" out of my post? Exactly where? I didn't say it, didn't imply it nor was I thinking it. I certainly would reject such a concept out of hand--because it cannot possibly follow when one considers the history of belief and unbelief. When people rejected Christ in the times of the gospels, God gave them a loooonnng protracted period of time to consider carefully His claims.


Which exactly is the point of my post. This verse is definately presented to the Saved (not the unsaved as you claim) these folks "Recieved the knowledge of the truth" not simply heard the Gospel. So I think it is referring to Christians. And it says those that wilfully sin afterwards have to be judged on that sin.


RC,

You are right that it is often presented as you say. My reference to OSAS was not in defense of it, but to suggest that it neither supports not denies it one way or other. It is simply not about that. My mention of it was to acknowledge that it (the passage) tends to stimulate discussion along that line. So we are in agreement that people use it. I only wanted to say that it is completely unnecessary to my interpretation--either pro or con. One can reject OSAS and accept my interpretation without any problems whatsoever.


quote:

Now since the prospect is presented in Scripture that a Saint might end up devoured it flies in the face of the Holy GRail OSAS folks. They get really fiesty over this passage.

That is all I am saying.

I do not know if you are OSAS or not; are you?


Thsnks
RC


RC,

If the following answer I give sounds like an evasion, I will simply accept the accusation without comment. While it is true that I tend toward the OSAS, my firmness on that issue really depends on who asks and on what day of the week you're asking. I think people tend to invoke passages out of context in order to support their pet doctrines.

A number of the dangers presented in the NT about consistent disobedience suggest any number of penalties without once mentioning hell. That's not to say there is no hell or any weird universalitist idea like that. I would never say that. I don't take kindly to eisegesis and try to avoid it if I can.


I have no major disagreements with what you say here Larry.

THanks
RC



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