RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die?

RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (Full Version)

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:49:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. If Hebrew poetry is consistent and if the wicked really are estranged from the womb, then they are also born with the ability to speak immediately, and not only that, but to speak lies. [:)] So they really aren't? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:53:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RatherDashing No one has nor will ever convince me of the assumption that babies are immediate products of hell after failed life. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus basis the righteousness of heaven on little children. If they are so sinful and hell born, wouldn't that devalue the standards of heaven and make it appear unholy? Where does Jesus speak of their righteousness? As for righteousness, it's only the imputed righteousness of Christ Himself that will present anyone to the Father... If babys have within them the righteousness of heaven God could have simply had one nailed to the cross... John

greatdivide46 -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 4:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. If Hebrew poetry is consistent and if the wicked really are estranged from the womb, then they are also born with the ability to speak immediately, and not only that, but to speak lies. [:)] So they really aren't? Right!

DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 4:10:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Where does Jesus speak of their righteousness? He said unless you change into the likeness of a little child, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. That sets their standards pretty high.

vixir -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 5:15:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: vixir I'm sure this is going to upset some of you... but I have to say it. Some of you guys are saying that the decision of those who go to Heaven, is based on faith. And I full heartedly believe that. However, a child who doesn't or even cannot understand the concept of God and Heaven, couldn't have faith. If you read the bible to your newborn and took (s)he to church every Sunday, (s)he wouldn't understand a word that is being spoken to her. There isn't a single baby who would/does understand scripture and God. Therefore, if what some of you guys are saying is true, then all babies would be damned to hell. So I truly believe that a baby who didn't have a chance to live and understand God, would go to Heaven. God is merciful, so why would He damn a soul that clearly wasn't old enough to have Salvation?! Just because it isn't spoken in Scripture, doesn't mean it isn't true. Fine... I claim foul and want baby salvation... If not granted God is not just... John How can you possibly compare babies to adults? Of course you wouldn't have "baby salvation" as you just put it, you are old enough to accept or deny Jesus Christ as your Savior. Not just old enough, but you are also capable of making that choice as well. But like I said before, if you are correct, then all babies are going to hell -- because none of them are capable of having faith.

1love1God1way -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 5:20:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: vixir I'm sure this is going to upset some of you... but I have to say it. Some of you guys are saying that the decision of those who go to Heaven, is based on faith. And I full heartedly believe that. However, a child who doesn't or even cannot understand the concept of God and Heaven, couldn't have faith. If you read the bible to your newborn and took (s)he to church every Sunday, (s)he wouldn't understand a word that is being spoken to her. There isn't a single baby who would/does understand scripture and God. Therefore, if what some of you guys are saying is true, then all babies would be damned to hell. So I truly believe that a baby who didn't have a chance to live and understand God, would go to Heaven. God is merciful, so why would He damn a soul that clearly wasn't old enough to have Salvation?! Just because it isn't spoken in Scripture, doesn't mean it isn't true. Fine... I claim foul and want baby salvation... If not granted God is not just... John How can you possibly compare babies to adults? Of course you wouldn't have "baby salvation" as you just put it, you are old enough to accept or deny Jesus Christ as your Savior. Not just old enough, but you are also capable of making that choice as well. But like I said before, if you are correct, then all babies are going to hell -- because none of them are capable of having faith. Why are none of them capable of having faith?

john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 6:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Paul was born dead... John so paul was wrong when he wrote romans 7?

vixir -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 6:24:33 PM)
quote: Why are none of them capable of having faith? How can they have faith in someone they don't even know? Or rather, in someone when they aren't old enough to comprehend God and/or Salvation?

zoebob -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 6:25:47 PM)
God gives them the faith.

vixir -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 6:29:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zoebob God gives them the faith. If this is true... then God picks and chooses which babies are worthy enough to have faith? Why would He choose some babies and not all, when babies are too little to accept or deny Him? And in order to accept Jesus as your Savior, you need to have faith, correct?

zoebob -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 6:44:50 PM)
God gives everyone their faith..not just babies.

1love1God1way -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 7:07:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir quote: Why are none of them capable of having faith? How can they have faith in someone they don't even know? Or rather, in someone when they aren't old enough to comprehend God and/or Salvation? Can YOU comprehend salvation or God?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 7:47:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. If Hebrew poetry is consistent and if the wicked really are estranged from the womb, then they are also born with the ability to speak immediately, and not only that, but to speak lies. [:)] So they really aren't? Right! So where the bible says Christ is the Savior He's really not as well? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 7:50:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RatherDashing quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Where does Jesus speak of their righteousness? He said unless you change into the likeness of a little child, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. That sets their standards pretty high. Yes like a child.... Total need... A child needs everything and offers nothing in return... The standard was set by the only innocent one, Jesus Christ... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 7:52:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Paul was born dead... John so paul was wrong when he wrote romans 7? Are you saying Paul was ALIVE in the SPIRIT while murdering Christians? Now understand Paul believed he was doing the work of God by doing so... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 7:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir quote: Why are none of them capable of having faith? How can they have faith in someone they don't even know? Or rather, in someone when they aren't old enough to comprehend God and/or Salvation? Understand that only by the Holy Spirit can anyone understand... It's not about reason, it's about God granting mercy...Man can only reason on things of the flesh apart from the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Intellect is not the key to salvation, mercy is and everyone needs mercy, regardless of age... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 7:56:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir quote: ORIGINAL: zoebob God gives them the faith. If this is true... then God picks and chooses which babies are worthy enough to have faith? Why would He choose some babies and not all, when babies are too little to accept or deny Him? And in order to accept Jesus as your Savior, you need to have faith, correct? Why not choose everyone ever born? Why stop at babies if granting automatic salvation? John

JesKlu -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 8:02:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BookerG Salvation is always and only by grace. No one is innocent and deserving to be allowed into heaven. No one in hell can say it's unfair because he didn't have a choice. Babies may not understand enough to make a choice. But faith is not an intellectual choice, it's trust. A day old baby is capable of trust. Faith is the miracle of the Holy Spirit dwelling in your heart. There's no age limit or IQ level below which the Spirit can't dwell. Infant faith may be the purest faith because it doesn't have all those intellectual arguments about why trusting One you can't see or understand is foolishness. It just trusts. But babies are also sinful. They inherit the guilt of Adam and they share that guilt by their own sin. Anyone who has raised children has seen that anger is not a phenomenon you learn later in life. Even unbelief in which they are born is a sin against the first commandment. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. God is both righteous and merciful. The Bible is silent about the fate of infants, and I will not dogmatically state what the Bible does not. But if they are saved, I think it must be because God grants them faith through unseen means, rather than that they are innocent or automatically go to heaven. I believe in infant baptism and baptismal regeneration. I don't think of baptism as a miracle worker that automatically saves babies either. It is merely one applying of the power of the Gospel by which the Spirit works faith. Baptism is the only means I have at my disposal to share the Gospel with infants, but it is not the only means at God's disposal. How, when and to whom he grants new life, faith and salvation are not mine to judge. But there is no Scriptural reason to think anyone can be saved outside of being united to Christ in the personal bonds of faith and trust. I couldn't have said it any better. Your sister in Christ Jesus, Jessica

abraxas -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 8:20:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All the sex in the world will not bring about what God didn't ordain before the foundation of the world... Now here is someone who truly understands the ramifications of God's omniscience! [;)]

abraxas -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 8:25:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Of course there is... Years ago... Like maybe eight or so one of the most ardent supporters of free will lost his mind on a thread regarding babies going to heaven... He was willing to toss everything he ever posted about how man must choose God in order to be saved out the window to defend the notion that all babies are granted salvation. The general plan of salvation that is common with those who believe man must choose in order to be saved runs over the idea that babies are saved automatically like a fully loaded 18 wheelers with no brakes on a iced over road going downhill� It's very interesting that once you place a baby into the picture predestination is just fine and dandy and God is just and loving in doing so, well up to a certain(never) mentioned age... This is what I had in mind. Also the idea that if babies automatically go to Heaven, then someone who decides to kill as many babies as they can would be bringing more souls to God. Still the alternative--such as asserting that babies can have faith and tell lies--isn't very satisfying either.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 10:17:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RatherDashing No one has nor will ever convince me of the assumption that babies are immediate products of hell after failed life. They are subject to the pitfalls of being part of mankind... If God chooses to show them mercy as a group it cannot be based on them being innocent since that view removes them from mankind... In fact it cannot be based on anything to do with them, since God's choice to show mercy is not governed by man's actions, but according to His will... Of course the general reaction is... "But they are babies, what could they have done to warrant judgement???" which puts us right back to God granting them salvation on some form of merit, not mercy... What mercy is God showing that which is declared innocent and not worthy of His judgement? John

DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 10:19:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir How can they have faith in someone they don't even know? Psalm 22:10 "From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb You have been my God."

zoebob -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 10:22:35 PM)
We know that John the Baptist recognized his savior before he was born.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 10:39:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. If Hebrew poetry is consistent and if the wicked really are estranged from the womb, then they are also born with the ability to speak immediately, and not only that, but to speak lies. [:)] So they really aren't? Right! So where the bible says Christ is the Savior He's really not as well? Nope. Where the Bible says Christ is the Savior He really is the Savior.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 10:43:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. If Hebrew poetry is consistent and if the wicked really are estranged from the womb, then they are also born with the ability to speak immediately, and not only that, but to speak lies. [:)] So they really aren't? Right! So where the bible says Christ is the Savior He's really not as well? Nope. Where the Bible says Christ is the Savior He really is the Savior. You sure? John

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