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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/8/2008 7:36:06 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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Jimbo,
I am going to meet with several members of my church this morning. I plan to ask them about this.
I do realize that the southern baptist convention is somewhat like a "co-op" where churches can join inorder to support our common goals...missions, world hunger and the like. I also understand that the "co-op" or SBConvention has no power over the local churches who choose to join the convention. However I do believe the convention has the power to "kick out" any church who would teach such as this.
It's also hard for me to believe that knowing what our missionaries teach, what our colleges and universities and even our material teach that a Church who did not agree with these "core doctrines" would desire to give "money" inorder to have what is contained in the BF&M taught.
I have a feeling that "if" the preacher is preaching such either they will be asked to resign before long or the church will split. I see no reason for a Church that teaches such as this to be part of an organization that would call that doctrine false. Why would they send money to the convention and have those people use that money to teach others that what this preacher preaches is "false doctrine"?
LOL did that make sense?
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/8/2008 10:55:26 AM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 164
Joined: 1/31/2007
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I am a conservative Lutheran. We have a SBC church in our town. We use some of the same evangilism programs, our Pastor and thiers meet weekly for prayer, study and fellowship. I have played cards with a couple of the SBC elders so I do not think they have a proplem with them.
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/9/2008 9:22:15 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Melitac
Here in my town (MO) we have a very large SBC church whos pastor preaches "one can only be saved by baptism alone".
JimboFletch
That sounds more like a twisted version of the Church of Christ than any Baptist. (I say "twisted" because CoC doesn't teach salvation by baptism alone but some may misinterpret their doctrine to say that.)
Jimbo,
That was exactly what my Pastor said when I asked him about this.
He pretty much said what I believed to be true. The Southern Baptist Convention has no right or power to go into individual chruches and tell them what to do. That is not the 'Purpose" of the convention.
If however this pastor and his church tried to stir up trouble at the convention or tried to change the core doctrine of the convention then they would be asked to leave the convention. They can also be asked to leave because they are actively teaching this.
He said if the deacons of the chruch and the church did not agree with what the pastor is preaching they can fire him or ask their local SB Association to come into their chruch and help them with the problem doctrine. But the association again would not be able to over-ride the congregation and "their wishes". The local association as well if they don't agree with this pastor and/or the chruches doctrine can ask them to remove themselves from the association. My pastor said the local level (associational and/or state) is probably where action would be taken to have them removed.
Congregational form of government rules. It's up to them or their board not some outside higher power because no higher outside power exist.
In Jan. 2006, The Southern Baptists of Texas Convention’s executive board voted unanimously to disaffiliate a church for violating the convention’s constitutional provision concerning churches that “affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior.”
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/9/2008 9:36:06 AM >
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/9/2008 9:36:49 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
Joined: 6/13/2005
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This is from the Southern Baptist Convention's constitution. It might help people better understand what we are about and how we do things.
Article I. The Name: The name of this body is the "Southern Baptist Convention."
Article II. Purpose: It is the purpose of the Convention to provide a general organization for Baptists in the United States and its territories for the promotion of Christian missions at home and abroad and any other objects such as Christian education, benevolent enterprises, and social services which it may deem proper and advisable for the furtherance of the Kingdom of God.
Article IV. Authority While independent and sovereign in its own sphere, the Convention does not claim and will never attempt to exercise any authority over any other Baptist body, whether church, auxiliary organizations, associations, or convention.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/9/2008 9:43:57 AM >
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/10/2008 2:52:40 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Article IV. Authority While independent and sovereign in its own sphere, the Convention does not claim and will never attempt to exercise any authority over any other Baptist body, whether church, auxiliary organizations, associations, or convention.
How can an organization claim sovereignty and yet never exercise any authority? What is the point then of claiming any kind of sovereignty?
Heavendweller
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/12/2008 7:58:18 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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quote:
How can an organization claim sovereignty and yet never exercise any authority? What is the point then of claiming any kind of sovereignty?
Heavendweller
They have the authority to receive, hold, possess, retain, and dispose of property, either real or personal, to sue and be sued, and to make all bylaws, rules, and regulations necessary to the transaction of their business.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/12/2008 8:07:36 AM >
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/12/2008 11:52:50 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Article IV. Authority While independent and sovereign in its own sphere, the Convention does not claim and will never attempt to exercise any authority over any other Baptist body, whether church, auxiliary organizations, associations, or convention.
How can an organization claim sovereignty and yet never exercise any authority? What is the point then of claiming any kind of sovereignty?
Heavendweller
The qualifier is "in its own shere." That would include "the promotion of Christian missions at home and abroad and any other objects such as Christian education, benevolent enterprises, and social services which it may deem proper and advisable for the furtherance of the Kingdom of God."
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/12/2008 8:21:33 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2134
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Article IV. Authority While independent and sovereign in its own sphere, the Convention does not claim and will never attempt to exercise any authority over any other Baptist body, whether church, auxiliary organizations, associations, or convention.
How can an organization claim sovereignty and yet never exercise any authority? What is the point then of claiming any kind of sovereignty?
Heavendweller
Presumably, they would own property, money and other assets in the name of the SBC. They would not claim property or assets owned by an independent SBC church. All SBC churches would own their own property and could not be forced to surrender any property to the convention.
Property and assets would be owned in the name of the Convention. They would be responsible for upkeep or sale, and so forth. They would use money and assets in order to finance missionaries and common endeavors that many small churches could never do on their own.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/13/2008 8:18:56 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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I believe too many people think the Convention "should" exercise authority over the Chruches who chose to join the association. I don't. That is one reason why my church is part of the convention.
If tomorrow the convention makes some crazy statment such as - homosexuality is God ordained then my church would not be effected at all. We would simply stop supporting the convention, take "southern baptist" off any stationary we own and continue on with our work. We would "grieve" over the sin but the convention does not have the right or authority to tell us to "change' our beliefs, take our property or fire our pastor and replace him with a lesbian woman. Nor could they take over our checking or savings accounts or force us to change our literature and what we teach.
We would simply continue to teach what we teach, do what we do and find other ways to support our goal of spreading the word of Jesus Christ.
In my area I am pretty sure our Associational and State SB groups would pull out as well but reamin "intact". If they pulled out most of the now SB churches in our area would continue to support them and the work they are doing.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/13/2008 8:27:29 AM >
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/13/2008 9:05:32 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I believe too many people think the Convention "should" exercise authority over the Chruches who chose to join the association. I don't. That is one reason why my church is part of the convention...
I agree and a "liberal" segment of the SBC disengaged and formed their own group not many years ago - and did so without loss of property or funds. They were free to follow their agenda and churches that chose to remain in the SBC continued without rancor or need for court battles.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/13/2008 12:51:10 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 271
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From: Minnesota
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My dad pastored a church in a different denomination and didn't allow us to play with regular playing cards. When I went to my Grandma's, I would always play cards with her. My dad found out and wasn't to happy when my Grandma said "they're just playing cards!" After that my dad didn't seem to care.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/15/2008 6:06:49 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Article IV. Authority While independent and sovereign in its own sphere, the Convention does not claim and will never attempt to exercise any authority over any other Baptist body, whether church, auxiliary organizations, associations, or convention.
How can an organization claim sovereignty and yet never exercise any authority? What is the point then of claiming any kind of sovereignty?
Heavendweller
Well, in the LCMS we do have a church "government" type thing that is in St Louis, Missouri. They do have authority and pretty much puts together the doctrine, but they allow congregations at the same time to have freedom, and not be slaves to the central office in St Louis. But they do have authority, but not the slavery kind you will find in the Catholic Church.
I think they run much like the Eastern Orthodox, except without bishops. For us, it is presidents, and district presidents, and they pretty much have the same kind of role a bishop would have. But without the name bishop.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/15/2008 6:09:27 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
Heavendweller: Yeah, but what do they think about Lutherans? :)
Colliefan: "Too much like Catholics. No Christians before the Reformation."
Hmmmmm.....Martin Luther (as in Lutherans) was the mover and shaker of the Reformation!
No Christians before the Reformation? 1500 years and no Church, no Christians???????? 
Heavendweller
I know, I find that hard to believe as well.
But you cannot deny the abuses that went on that led up to the reformation. But I do agree with you in that I believe there were bible-believing Christians before the reformation. But most of them, I'm sure, kept silent.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/16/2008 8:12:23 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Colliefan: "Too much like Catholics. No Christians before the Reformation."
Just to make SURE people don't misunderstand what SB believe. We DO believe there have always been Christians. Even before the Reformation.
People who like to bash SB often stay things that are false and misleading just to "stir up trouble" within the body of Christ. We SB just as all other denominations have people who "hate" us for some reason.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/17/2008 10:25:43 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 345
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First of all, I am an independent, fundamental (although i usually refrain from using fundamental due to the bad connotation it has unfairly received) Baptist who has no problem whatsoever with playing cards. I know MANY who do though. It is their conviction, possibly because it brings back bad memories, or it temps them to gamble. I do not look down on these individuals one bit. I attended a Baptist high school which 'banned' cards, and I didn't have a problem with that. That was their conviction which they upheld because students were using them to gamble. But as for why Baptists disapprove of it? That is a VERY general term that describes a HUGE group of people, all of whom do not have the same conviction. There's no "Baptist Manifesto" that says all Baptists shall not play cards...LOL. My old man is a Baptist minister who will not play cards, but has no issue with his family playing.
My favorite games are Spades an Euchre which I play at every family reunion. Iv'e found it to be a good time to gather with unsaved friends and family to witness to them.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 8:53:23 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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quote:
I am an independent, fundamental (although i usually refrain from using fundamental due to the bad connotation it has unfairly received) Baptist
Are there any IFB church in the SB convention? I don't know of any but there may be.
I ask just because I would like to know but also because the OP is going to a SB church.
(baptist covers so many differant groups that it's almost like saying "christian". Unless you get down to the actual doctrine you honestly don't know much about what a group teaches or believes)
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/19/2008 9:00:32 AM >
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 9:04:14 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I am an independent, fundamental (although i usually refrain from using fundamental due to the bad connotation it has unfairly received) Baptist
Are there any IFB church in the SB convention? I don't know of any but there may be.
I ask just because I would like to know but also because the OP is going to a SB church.
(baptist covers so many differant groups that it's almost like saying "christian". Unless you get down to the actual doctrine you honestly don't know much about what a group teaches or believes)
My guess is that "Independent" indicates they do not affiliate with any denomination, including SBC.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 9:15:53 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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I agree Jimbo. I've never heard of one being part of the convention.
quote:
And that is sad, isn't it?
Jesus prayed that the Father would make us one, just as He and the Father are one, yet we look for reasons to hate our brothers...
Christians hating Christians is not right.
I believe we know one another by the way Jesus said we would. By the way we love one another. Most of the time I can spot a Christian in a group within a few minutes of being around them. I don't have to ask what "denomination" they belong to. Yes that will come around as we get to know one another better but a truly born again Christian is going to love another truly born again Christian.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 10:14:10 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 345
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quote:
My guess is that "Independent" indicates they do not affiliate with any denomination, including SBC.
That's exactly right. An Independent, Fundamental Baptist church would not be "Independent" if they joined an affiliation or group, such as the SBC. So to answer your question P31W, no.
quote:
(baptist covers so many differant groups that it's almost like saying "christian". Unless you get down to the actual doctrine you honestly don't know much about what a group teaches or believes)
Well P31W, if your question was asked to learn differences between an IFBC and a SBC, there is really not any major doctrinal differences between them. The differences you will find are standards of separation. Other than that, they get along pretty well. At least in my experience they do.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 10:49:46 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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quote:
standards of separation.
Ok so that pretty much deals with how we live our life as a christian?
If that is what you are talking about I completely understand that. I understand Romans 14 pretty good and believe that each community and/or group knows what is best for them and the best witness for them in their particular area and time.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/19/2008 10:56:34 AM >
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 6:57:23 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 345
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quote:
Ok so that pretty much deals with how we live our life as a christian?
I'm a lil' confused, so I hope my answer doesn't seem off the subject. If it is, correct me. Yes, "standards of separation" is simply the standard one holds as to how separated they are from the world, and our "standards of separation" affect how we live our life as a Christian. But, everyone sees it different. A perfect example is this playing cards issue.
Some denominations TEND to be a little more separated than others. Independent Fundamentals Baptists are among the most separated, but don't get me wrong, they aren't wacko, like the Amish or the Fundamental Mormons. Many IFB will not play cards, play pool, go to movie theaters, wear pants (girls), listen to certain music, and the list goes on. SBC, however, at least in my experience, is not nearly as separated. Thats all.
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RE: Baptists and playing cards - 5/19/2008 7:09:31 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2134
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
My guess is that "Independent" indicates they do not affiliate with any denomination, including SBC.
That's exactly right. An Independent, Fundamental Baptist church would not be "Independent" if they joined an affiliation or group, such as the SBC. So to answer your question P31W, no.
May be. But many IFB cooperate with other "IFB's" to the same or similar degree that churches in the SBC do. I know that from experience.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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), you name it, I probably play it. 
