RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (Full Version)

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inthysite -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 6:47:19 PM)

quote:

But you missed the point. Do you think the car companies in Japan would be doing this without this mandate from the government? I think not. That's innovation spurred on because of a government mandate.

The car companies in this country whined at the 35 mpg requirement and fought to keep it a reality. Bush and congress kowtowed to them lowering it from the proposed higher mpg requirement. The American public would love their cars to have a higher mpg so the market wants it but the car companies don't. They'd rather just give us Sync or OnStar and call that innovation.


Actually it is market demand that drives production. Electric cars, hybrids, etc have been around for a few years now but are at the bottom of the sales ladder.

Top sales in America are pickup trucks, specifically Ford's F series, then comes the Toyota Camry, fairly good on mpg but not the best, and the Honda Accord. A little further down the line come the Ford Taurus and Chevy Impala.

The number one concern driving sales is reliability not gas mileage, after that it is of course price and incentives such as rebates or low interest charges.



mapachito13 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 6:57:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

quote:

But you missed the point. Do you think the car companies in Japan would be doing this without this mandate from the government? I think not. That's innovation spurred on because of a government mandate.

The car companies in this country whined at the 35 mpg requirement and fought to keep it a reality. Bush and congress kowtowed to them lowering it from the proposed higher mpg requirement. The American public would love their cars to have a higher mpg so the market wants it but the car companies don't. They'd rather just give us Sync or OnStar and call that innovation.


Actually it is market demand that drives production. Electric cars, hybrids, etc have been around for a few years now but are at the bottom of the sales ladder.

Top sales in America are pickup trucks, specifically Ford's F series, then comes the Toyota Camry, fairly good on mpg but not the best, and the Honda Accord. A little further down the line come the Ford Taurus and Chevy Impala.

The number one concern driving sales is reliability not gas mileage, after that it is of course price and incentives such as rebates or low interest charges.


Then how do you explain the increase of hybrid sales this year and the decrease in truck sales (except for the Toyota Tundra). Looks like the pain at the pump is starting to change people's car buying habits.

Car sales per the WSJ



inthysite -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 7:25:29 PM)

quote:

Then how do you explain the increase of hybrid sales this year and the decrease in truck sales (except for the Toyota Tundra). Looks like the pain at the pump is starting to change people's car buying habits.


I did misspeak about hybrids being at the bottom of the sales ladder, I forgot that the Camry and Accord now have hybrid models. But that doesn't change my statement that the Ford F series is still the top seller.

The report you link to supports that. Yes, their sales are down but so are the Camry and Accord and even with the drop in sales from last year the Ford still outsells any hybrid.

And the car with the biggest change in sales figures is the Ford Focus, not a hybrid but it does get 35mpg. But it also comes fully equipped starting at around $17k. So I think that price as well as mpg factor into their sales, but YTD sales on it are only 49,000. Thats 100,000 less than the Ford truck.



wing2000 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 7:33:15 PM)

When all those F-150 drivers get tired of paying $100.00 to fill up their tank (it's getting close), I suspect those numbers will start to decline sharply.



mapachito13 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 7:43:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

quote:

Then how do you explain the increase of hybrid sales this year and the decrease in truck sales (except for the Toyota Tundra). Looks like the pain at the pump is starting to change people's car buying habits.


I did misspeak about hybrids being at the bottom of the sales ladder, I forgot that the Camry and Accord now have hybrid models. But that doesn't change my statement that the Ford F series is still the top seller.

The report you link to supports that. Yes, their sales are down but so are the Camry and Accord and even with the drop in sales from last year the Ford still outsells any hybrid.

And the car with the biggest change in sales figures is the Ford Focus, not a hybrid but it does get 35mpg. But it also comes fully equipped starting at around $17k. So I think that price as well as mpg factor into their sales, but YTD sales on it are only 49,000. Thats 100,000 less than the Ford truck.


Look at the trends! This has been an abysmal year for car sales but most of the cars showing an increase in sales are smaller cars and hybrids (again, except for the Tundra). Hey, maybe Ford F-series owners are starting to go over to Toyota!



inthysite -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 8:00:08 PM)

quote:

Look at the trends! This has been an abysmal year for car sales but most of the cars showing an increase in sales are smaller cars and hybrids (again, except for the Tundra). Hey, maybe Ford F-series owners are starting to go over to Toyota!


Again, according to the WSJ the Ford F series outsells everyone. You say look at the trends, well last month the Ford truck out sold all others and this is while gas prices are rising. YTD Ford still outsells everyone.

Also, Ford out sold the Toyota Tundra YTD by over 100,000. You can make statistics validate just about any point of view but you can't ignore the actual numbers.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 9:27:38 PM)

quote:

One day each week, personal vehicles (non commercial) which get less than 20 MPG are banned from the highways


Here in NC lawmakers passed a law stating that all children 8 and under had to be put in their own car seat. And what does to families with a number of children? And what would your law do to these families?

In regard to hybrids, where are we going to get the metal for all these batteries for these cars?

We can't have coal fired power plants. Can't have nuclear. Can't have solar or wind b/c it spoils the view. Can't drill for oil. I guess we need to go back to the middle ages and all the good things it had; like the black death.



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/24/2008 11:23:33 PM)

So when we get rid of all the pickups, is the gov't going to bail out the home improvement centers (you know, for the good of the economy)? Or are Americans going to learn how to tie plywood to the top of their Corollas?

Just thinkin out loud.[:)]



Regent -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 3:18:25 AM)

" Japan is demanding that their cars and trucks have a 47 mpg rating."

I am not positive that this statistic is correct. Japan sells gas in liters and measures distances in kilometers. So, technically, you should measure their "mileage" in kpl, however, if "mpg" is incorrect so that it should be "kpl,", it does not translate well to kpl. Our Japanese car, when you change the system only gets around 19mpg.



mapachito13 -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 10:36:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Regent

" Japan is demanding that their cars and trucks have a 47 mpg rating."

I am not positive that this statistic is correct. Japan sells gas in liters and measures distances in kilometers. So, technically, you should measure their "mileage" in kpl, however, if "mpg" is incorrect so that it should be "kpl,", it does not translate well to kpl. Our Japanese car, when you change the system only gets around 19mpg.


Actually it's 42.3 mpg.

READ THIS



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 8:05:38 PM)

quote:

are required to meet greenhouse has reduction targets under the Kyoto Protocol


yes, some UN anti-business mess emerging countries such as China and India have yet to sign...more St. Al mess



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 8:30:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
yes, some UN anti-business mess emerging countries such as China and India have yet to sign...more St. Al mess

You do realize that many countries that have adopted the Kyoto protocol- many European ones, for instance, are in much better shape today because they made theri economies more energy-efficient.

Luxembourg, for example, can generate about twice as much GDP per barrel of oil than the US can. Naturally, the US clobbers most of Asia by this same measure, but with oil at $120/barrel, Europe's energy efficiency largely makes up for its socialism when it comes to how strong an economy is.

And if anyone still thinks that the CAFE standards laws back in the '70s were foolish, keep in mind that by going from an average fuel efficiency of 17 mpg to an average of 25, American motorists are reducing their consumption by 4.7 million barrels of oil per day. This translates into roughly $200 Billion/year in savings for consumers. Even if regulation was responsible for only 1/4 of that savings, $50 Billion/year represents the combined market caps of GM, Ford, and what Chrysler would likely be valued at.

Maybe it is time for the US to start mandating that when people purchase a car that gets less than 20 mpg, they are also required to purchase enough gasoline futures to operate the car for 40,000 miles. I think that a free-market economy becomes more efficient when consumers understand all costs up-front, and most consumers don't truly appreciate the costs of operating a gas-guzzler.

If you buy a Hummer today and drive it for 100,000 miles, you will pay more for the gasoline (at $3.50/gallon) than for the vehicle. Most people don't consider this when they make their purchase. If they did, only a handful of rich people with tastes for extreme frivolity would buy them.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 8:42:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Regent

" Japan is demanding that their cars and trucks have a 47 mpg rating."

I am not positive that this statistic is correct. Japan sells gas in liters and measures distances in kilometers. So, technically, you should measure their "mileage" in kpl, however, if "mpg" is incorrect so that it should be "kpl,", it does not translate well to kpl. Our Japanese car, when you change the system only gets around 19mpg.


Actually it's 42.3 mpg.

READ THIS

If American motorists and trucks were to reduce fuel consumption by 20%, that would save us about 2.5 million barrels of oil per day. That's $300 million/day or about $110 Billion/year. Not chump change.

If we were to come up with a technology that could do that, the net present value, allowing for a 15% expected rate of return and considering only 10 years of savings, would be $550 Billion. This represents 5% of the GDP and probably on the order of 10 times what the feds have spent on alternative energy over the past 20 years.

Personally, I am interested in the idea of a system that involves Plug-in Hybrids and nuclear. Right now, roughly 600 nuclear plants could replace all of the energy we get from oil. This sounds like a lot, but it's actually pretty cheap. The US consumes about $2.4 Billion/day worth of oil. Meanwhile, a new nuclear power plant might cost $3 Billion. This means that, assuming everyone can switch to plug-in cars, we can pay off the cost of the nuclear plants in a little under two years of saving ourselves oil.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 8:44:44 PM)

quote:

If you buy a Hummer today and drive it for 100,000 miles, you will pay more for the gasoline (at $3.50/gallon) than for the vehicle. Most people don't consider this when they make their purchase. If they did, only a handful of rich people with tastes for extreme frivolity would buy them.


If they can afford it, they should be able to buy want they want.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 8:47:00 PM)

quote:

are in much better shape today because they made theri economies more energy-efficient.


by using light bulbs that should one break it would polute 1,000 gallons of water? And one needs call in the HAZMAT team to clean up the mess?



Leslie_JnJs_mom -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 9:15:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcp

quote:

A joke for the person who talked about Americans not wanting to walk across the parking lot:

This modern American drives to the Wal-Mart and drives around looking for a space to park. Not finding one, he goes to this weird spot near the front of the store where hardly no cars ever stop.

He steps out of the car, and falls through a time and space warp which brings him to the Sea of Galilee in the first century, standing next to Jesus.

Jesus says, "Oh, an American! You have all kinds of technological wonders in your culture, so you can probably believe that I can walk on water. I was just going out to the disciples' boat, and if you have faith, you can walk out with me."

The American stares in wide-eyed disbelief.

Jesus says, "Oh, don't worry about a thing. I've done it hundreds of times."

American's jaw drops open!

Jesus says, "What's the matter? Don't you believe that I created water and gravity and I can control the forces of nature however I will?"

The American finally replies. "It's not that, Lord. I believe that we won't sink, just like you say. It's just that that boat must be three hundred yards out to sea, and I've never walked that FAR before!"


Joke or indictment? funny, though.

And the boat was for fishing? I thought fish came in stick form from the frozen section of the grocery. I should know, cause I pass them in my motorized shopping cart every week.


My neighbors once drove across the street to the park! It is a one lane country gravel road.



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 9:52:15 PM)

Yes, they should cap this. It is pure greed, 9 billion in Profits in one quarter..


Cap them!



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 10:51:01 PM)

quote:

Yes, they should cap this. It is pure greed, 9 billion in Profits in one quarter..
Cap them!


Exxon makes roughly ten cents per gallon, The combined take for the Feds/State here in NC is $1 gallon. And the state take was capped b/c the reps forced a cap on gas taxes. Don't forget the profit is on a WORLD_WIDE basis.

Here in NC the state government last year had a 2 billion dollar surplus and blew it all on pork. And I am not talking about 'cue.



tracydolls -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 11:13:28 PM)

quote:

Exxon makes roughly ten cents per gallon,

how many gallons do they sell a day? so 10 cents times..... is ....

quote:


The combined take for the Feds/State here in NC is $1 gallon. And the state take was capped b/c the reps forced a cap on gas taxes. Don't forget the profit is on a WORLD_WIDE basis.


Stop all the greedy people, i don't care where they live.

quote:

Here in NC the state government last year had a 2 billion dollar surplus and blew it all on pork. And I am not talking about 'cue.


2 billion for a state gov't does not seem like tooo much. 9 billion for 5 companies per quarter is excessive.

as far as the pork, try not to eat it. no matter how it's cooked.

the whole gov't is just too bloated, and getting bigger by the day.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 11:29:08 PM)

Don't forget a number of people exist on pensions derived from oil company profits. From a world-wide basis, that profit is not excessive. Why is it that a movie company, a recording company can make a profit and no one bats an eye. Each time you hear a Beatle's song in background music or on the radio, money goes into Michael Jackson's pocket, And no one is complaining on the profit he makes for doing nothing.



colliefan -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 11:31:57 PM)

quote:


the whole gov't is just too bloated, and getting bigger by the day.


And it will get even bigger should Barry or Hill get into the Oval Office. John will do nothing other than to keep things status quo.



Leslie_JnJs_mom -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/25/2008 11:49:58 PM)

quote:

Look at the trends! This has been an abysmal year for car sales but most of the cars showing an increase in sales are smaller cars and hybrids (again, except for the Tundra). Hey, maybe Ford F-series owners are starting to go over to Toyota!



I drive a mini van that costs about 50 dollars to fill up now. My dear husband was wanting to look into a hybrid but I pointed out that no matter how fuel efficient the car is it will still be more expencive since my minivan is paid off. Once you add in 300 a month for a car payment that is not much of a savings.



mcp -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/26/2008 12:41:10 AM)

quote:

colliefan: Here in NC the state government last year had a 2 billion dollar surplus and blew it all on pork. And I am not talking about 'cue.


I was going to say, I didn't see a $2B sized pig-pickin anywhere.


quote:

tracydolls: 2 billion for a state gov't does not seem like tooo much. 9 billion for 5 companies per quarter is excessive.


So what should the numbers be? Obviously, state taxes on fuel are justified because 2B isn't too much for a state. And that cause the state capped revenues that could be collected by gov't. But 9 billion for 5 companies (corporate entities) is too much.? Is this an anti-trust beef, cause 5 companies plus other smaller ones in the sector doesn't usually qualify.

What do the oil co's do with it? do we know what a corporate entity is (especially public or international type)? It has employees, share holders, other investment groups, partners and an unconscionable amount of customers and vendors (including those who sale Exxon a sizable amount of crude). That money goes in turn to investors who cash out, employees, execs, capital projects, and assets, all of which contributes to our GNP over time (not to mention gov't tax revenues; both personal & corporate).

I think that emotions cloud judgement on lawmaking at times; but if you want to be upset, point to the rich who don't give back (be they corp execs or lotto winners). Of course, if they are rich and their projects consists in reinvesting in other projects or welfare/ministries, then I think you should consider exempting them.
Also, consider what removing these profits amount to in reducing the cost of fuel per gallon (using some numbers from this thread, I see at best 5 cents difference). Then consider, if Exxon doesn't run profitably, then who will replace them to explore for oil or develop fuel cells. I don't care if it is Exxon that does it over another company, but I am not going to suggest that we pull our antitrust card just yet.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/26/2008 2:59:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

If you buy a Hummer today and drive it for 100,000 miles, you will pay more for the gasoline (at $3.50/gallon) than for the vehicle. Most people don't consider this when they make their purchase. If they did, only a handful of rich people with tastes for extreme frivolity would buy them.


If they can afford it, they should be able to buy want they want.

Oh, absolutely. But they should be able to afford to operate it, too.

If you're rich and want to buy a tank to drive around in, that's your choice (Assuming you can get it registered). After all, you could always buy a private jet, too- or just buy a hundred thousand barrels of oil and burn them all.

However, Adam Smith's arguments in "The Wealth of Nations"- and most Western economic thought- assumes that consumers are relatively rational.

Buying a Hummer if you can only afford to operate it at $1.50/gallon is irrational.

quote:

by using light bulbs that should one break it would polute 1,000 gallons of water? And one needs call in the HAZMAT team to clean up the mess?

A typical CFL has 3 mg of mercury in it. Meanwhile, a typical coal plant provides electricity for 100,000 households and emits about 1000 kg of mercury per year. If you do the math, CFLs are a net positive- in terms of mercury, if they last for just a few years before breaking.

quote:

Exxon makes roughly ten cents per gallon, The combined take for the Feds/State here in NC is $1 gallon. And the state take was capped b/c the reps forced a cap on gas taxes. Don't forget the profit is on a WORLD_WIDE basis.

IIRC, Exxon actually produces 3.5 million barrels of oil per day (my numbers are a few years old, so this may have increased or decreased a bit, but not by more than 20%), and made $40 Billion last year. This means they produced 1.25 Billion barrels of oil, and made $32/barrel in profits. Divide that by about 40 gallons/barrel, and you have a $0.80/gallon profit. This is after all taxes.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Should there be a cap on Gas prices?? (4/26/2008 3:06:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Don't forget a number of people exist on pensions derived from oil company profits. From a world-wide basis, that profit is not excessive. Why is it that a movie company, a recording company can make a profit and no one bats an eye. Each time you hear a Beatle's song in background music or on the radio, money goes into Michael Jackson's pocket, And no one is complaining on the profit he makes for doing nothing.

People like me. I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you for helping me provide support for the ACLU with these wonderful 4.8% dividends that BP has been paying. Over the past several years, most of us liberals have been loading up on oil company stock knowing that the world is running out of oil and that Bush wasn't going to do anything.



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