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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/22/2008 3:57:56 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2784
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Awwww, Shucks!
Here it is:
quote:
To shine a meager light on the subject again.........
There is the MORAL law that defines "sin,"
and there is the CEREMONIAL law, that atoned for "sin."
Anyone could hardly be called "legalist" if they obeyed certain moral laws.
The CEREMONIAL law made atonement, but it could not rescue permanently,
because it involved animal deaths, in place of the individual dying for the sins.
i.e., Yeshua making reconciliation as our "substitute." Man paying for man's sin.
The blood of the Renewed Covenant covers us permanently, ending the CEREMONIAL
law. It is the hatred of the law of "sin and death" that were ordinances againt us,
nailed to the wood.
It was not the MORAL law that was "done away," but the CEREMONIAL law.
When we accept the Passover of YHWH's Lamb the MORAL law (Torah) is written on
our hearts and minds, enabling us to LOVE the Commandments. You will not live life
ignoring them, because this "change" inside you causes you to agree with the moral laws.
When we accept the sacrifice of Yeshua and can say "I love the Torah," He has
"circumcised" our hearts.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith (emunah), and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of YHWH ---- not by works (ceremonial offerings), so that no
one can boast. for we are YHWH's workmanship, created in Mashiach Yeshua to do
good works, which YHWH prepared in advance for us to do." Eph. 2:8-10
[Those "good works" prepared in advance are the Torah.)
It's not "legalism", but LOVE.
Some time back I began to always view the Grace of YHWH in view of the King and
his kingdom. Since his title is "Your Grace," it made me think of how the surfs could
only survive on what the king gave them or allowed them to have. The king can favor
us with many gifts, rights, and privileges. Or, that same king can tax us to death.
That's when the verse that declares that He "gave us power to become sons of God"
started taking on deeper meaning for me personally.
I admit it, I watch a lot of Robin Hood episodes. lol.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 4/22/2008 4:05:29 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/22/2008 6:45:04 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 805
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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Be careful of extending analogies, especially those we come up with ourselves. This can often the be the source of much misunderstanding.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 12:04:42 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1978
Status: offline
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quote:
would like to see this point dicussed more...Please??? 4. That Law and grace can be freely mixed and mingled without detriment to grace.
In order to understand why the Law and Grace do not mix, one should spend some time in the epistle to the Galatians. Paul contrasts the Law (which is expressed through works of the Law) with grace (which is experienced through faith without any merit on our part whatsoever) in this manner:
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are UNDER A CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law [the Torah] to do them. But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith". (Gal. 3:10,11).
It is crystal clear from this passage that there is no way that God will accept the mingling of Law and Grace, since (1) there is a curse attached to the Law and (2) no man can be justified by the Law in the sight of God.
This brings us to the fact that every one of us is a sinner and incapable of obeying the Law perfectly. As soon as you break one law, you have immediately broken the whole Law of God. And the wages of sin is death. This is the curse attached to the Law of sin and death.
Secondly, since no man can keep the Law perfectly, no man can be declared righteous through obedience to the Law. God demands perfection equal to Divine perfection (Mt. 5:48), and man can offer only imperfection. Whether it was Noah, Abraham, Moses, or David, they all came short of the perfection [or glory] of God.
Therefore we all without exception must turn to God and cry out for mercy -- "God, be merciful to me a sinner", and only those who turn to God by faith are justified by grace (Eph. 2:8). As Christ said about the man who cried out to God in repentance, pleading for mercy, he went home justified.
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:1).
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/23/2008 12:12:15 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 5:59:56 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
Status: offline
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it's in no way shape of form about being justified by the law. Works do nothing for our salvation and saving. Keeping the law, is the evidence of salvation. Defining law in the terms i understand it , is not intentionally breaking the law knowingly and willingly. The law teaches and I don't think he meant for the education to go away when the New Covenant came. Teaching, learning and growing are all evidences of one's salvation. If we are stagnate and remain stagnate, bearing no fruit, can we be sure that we were ever saved to begin with? The law is a guide, keeping it is honoring to God. Besides that, He says He is the law. How much more comingled can you get than that? When I refer to the law, I am not referring to the OT ordinances, ceremonies, etc.
Edited to add:
I don't think we follow the law in order to justify ourselves to God, but because the HS has given us the desire to be obedient. Two very different concepts. Good to gain favor does not equal because of favor the desire to do good.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 4/23/2008 6:11:07 AM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 11:27:14 AM
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rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
One thing that I learned is that unbelievers knowingly or unknowingly hate grace and they do so because the Grace of God would teach that men are indeed worthless are of absolutely no value until the blood of Christ flows through in him.
Hi Sammy
I think you are right about that. The gospel of the grace of God tells us that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. It tells us that we are all sinnners, and men don't like to hear that. In fact I just read that even something like 76% of Christians now think that all people are basically good. People don't want to hear that there is nothing, absolutely nothing that they can do to earn salvation. That's why the preaching of the cross is an offense. Unbelievers we can forgive because they don't know any better. But it's not just the unsaved who apparently also despise the kindness of God towards us in Christ Jesus. You have many believers who think nothing at all of calling what God did for us on Calvary "cheap". "cheap grace" is what some like to call what all God is now free to do for us, in us and through us because of what Christ and Christ alone did.
rileykins
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 11:47:26 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
Status: offline
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Why would somebody call His death on the cross "cheap grace"? I have never heard that before. These are Christians saying this?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 1:37:57 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
would like to see this point dicussed more...Please??? 4. That Law and grace can be freely mixed and mingled without detriment to grace.
In order to understand why the Law and Grace do not mix, one should spend some time in the epistle to the Galatians. Paul contrasts the Law (which is expressed through works of the Law) with grace (which is experienced through faith without any merit on our part whatsoever) in this manner:
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are UNDER A CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law [the Torah] to do them. But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith". (Gal. 3:10,11).
It is crystal clear from this passage that there is no way that God will accept the mingling of Law and Grace, since (1) there is a curse attached to the Law and (2) no man can be justified by the Law in the sight of God.
This brings us to the fact that every one of us is a sinner and incapable of obeying the Law perfectly. As soon as you break one law, you have immediately broken the whole Law of God. And the wages of sin is death. This is the curse attached to the Law of sin and death.
Secondly, since no man can keep the Law perfectly, no man can be declared righteous through obedience to the Law. God demands perfection equal to Divine perfection (Mt. 5:48), and man can offer only imperfection. Whether it was Noah, Abraham, Moses, or David, they all came short of the perfection [or glory] of God.
Therefore we all without exception must turn to God and cry out for mercy -- "God, be merciful to me a sinner", and only those who turn to God by faith are justified by grace (Eph. 2:8). As Christ said about the man who cried out to God in repentance, pleading for mercy, he went home justified.
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:1).
Thank you, Ezra. Yes, I believe all that. But can you post about keeping the law once one is saved? I know there is a one-stop thread on that but I think it is so important to discuss regarding the walk of the believer.
For example the law of love is to be our goal, correct?
~For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love~
Galatians 5:6
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Galatians 5:14
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:8, 10
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 2:21:01 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3162
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
For example the law of love is to be our goal, correct? Absolutely correct! And this can only be accomplished by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. However, we have the responsibility of living out His Love on a daily basis as He empowers us by grace.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 2:55:24 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
For example the law of love is to be our goal, correct? Absolutely correct! And this can only be accomplished by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. However, we have the responsibility of living out His Love on a daily basis as He empowers us by grace.
I totally agree.
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 5:02:29 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 117
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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I haven't read through the whole thread, but somebody should be mentioning the book The Grace Awakening, for sure. It addresses this whole topic from every angle and very well done. I think it's by Chuck Swindoll / Charles Swindoll.
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 5:19:21 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
What does the fact that they fell from grace mean?
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/23/2008 5:58:17 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 805
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
What does the fact that they fell from grace mean?
Those who keep the law in the hopes of being justified thereby are mistaken. They have slipped and fallen in their understanding of the nature of justification. The issue of keeping Torah for other reasons is not what Paul is talking about here and there are other threads for discussing those other reasons.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/24/2008 10:41:59 AM
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rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shrommer
I haven't read through the whole thread, but somebody should be mentioning the book The Grace Awakening, for sure. It addresses this whole topic from every angle and very well done. I think it's by Chuck Swindoll / Charles Swindoll.
Hi Shrommer
Yes, good book! I read it several years ago.
rileykins
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/26/2008 1:41:17 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1978
Status: offline
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quote:
Thank you, Ezra. Yes, I believe all that. But can you post about keeping the law once one is saved?
In keeping with the New Covenant, Christ gave us a "New Commandment", which the apostle John explains in great detail in his first epistle.
The new commandment is just one word -- agape -- and it can only be kept by the power and enablement of the Holy Spirit. This commandment encompasses and comprehends all of God's commandments, since perfect love towards God and the love of Christ towards all others is the essence of God's commandments. See 1 Cor. 13.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/26/2008 7:28:59 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 351
Joined: 12/17/2005
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Grace is misunderstood because many Christians don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit in their lives. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that guides a believer from within. Unfortunately, when you don't understand this truth you end up with false teachings like the mixing of law and grace. I have heard it said that God gives us His grace when we fall short of keeping the law. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Old Covenant Law and New Covenant Grace address two totally different areas. The law deals with issues of the flesh. Grace deals with issues of the Spirit. The law shows you your sinfulness to lead you to Christ. The grace of God teaches us to say no to ungodliness. When you mix the two you destroy both!
The Christian has to decide are they going to try and be obedient to the law in the energy of their own flesh or learn to be dependent to the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit? When you try and live under the law you have fallen from grace. We have been set free from rules and regulations so we can rest in the finished work of Christ. The choice is yours. Self-effort or Christ's efforts.
"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:3-4
Grace and Peace
_____________________________
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
www.livinggodministries.net
http://360.yahoo.com/idog96
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/27/2008 1:59:35 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
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Grace is misunderstood.....some reasons.
Grace is the unmerited, undeserved, unearned favor of God.
Man naturally want to be credited with something therefore salvation by works, laws, good deeds, are at home in untrained christians and unregenerate men.
Since the presupposition of men is 'working for approval' cults arise in all forms with their leaders taking them down the road where works, laws, good deeds and especially honor and obedience to the spiritual leader is necessary.
The grace of God is unmerited, but when God means unmerited man does not accept it; the carnal mind or the unrenewed mind will strive to gain God's approval in all kinds of ways. That man believes that there is something inherently good about his person. This latent stronghold is only subdued when that man realizes he cannot please God in either the quality, quantity, attitude or obedience that God demands.
The grace of God is undeserved and God has roadblocked all claims that man can make on deservings, yet man does not accept that. He must put God in debt to himself in some form, usually because of the same stronghold that presumes "I can do this christian thing" and begins long years of legal mindedness, strivings after the flesh, carnal ambitions, using God's gifts to prove to God that man can be successful in being a pretty good Christian. By doing these things he is completely deceived.
The grace of God is unearned. God really means that man cannot earn the kind of grace that they need to obtain the righteousness, justification, sanctification and glorification that God has planned. But men do not accept that, they are instinctively clever and willing to go to any length to mechanically and legally put their hands upon Gods benefits. Therefore the unrenewed mind will do whatever is within its power to contrive of ways to get God to give something to them out of obligation in answer to what they have done.
The origin of the grace of God comes from Gods own willingness to bestow love and benificent kindnesses to that person. Gods foreknowledge of them contained with in it more than just a view to the future but a plan to express love toward that person. Grace is the expression of Gods love, not from what God saw in that man, but what God purposed in himself to do for that man. This grace is a priori to the person believing, repenting or obeying God.
This is too good to be true, its too kind, too gracious, too wonderful to accept. God just 'giving' me favor because it made him happy to do so; it runs counter to everything the carnal enmity of man has built up in its reasonings against God. Its not fair to be loved as if we were so valuable and so precious when there is not a single thread of our being that can lay claim to deserving it. Its not fair to overthrow the disapproval my mind has against God with unearned, undeserved, unmerited favor all packaged in countless kindnesses, helps, counsels, decisions, protections, chastenings, providences that brought me to this place of recognizing I am more than a debtor to the law because of sin, but a debtor to love because of super abundant mercies I never asked for or wanted.
John
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 4/27/2008 2:12:47 AM >
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/27/2008 10:24:42 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1989
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
The Christian has to decide are they going to try and be obedient to the law in the energy of their own flesh or learn to be dependent to the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit? When you try and live under the law you have fallen from grace. We have been set free from rules and regulations so we can rest in the finished work of Christ. The choice is yours. Self-effort or Christ's efforts.
"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:3-4
Grace and Peace
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
What does the fact that they fell from grace mean?
Some Galatians were led back to works.
They fell into the grace plus works thing.
A disease that the flesh somehow contributes
to our salvation or keeps us hidden in Christ.
They reverted and returned to the ways of
law in order to satisfy their lack of faith,
and left the Heavenly security of grace.
IOW, they fell back to law after grace saved.
No one is saved by the law...
The law does not and cannot keep us.
We received Christ in The Spirit, not the law.
We began in grace and remain grace.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/27/2008 4:13:18 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1978
Status: offline
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quote:
We began in grace and remain grace.
Amen. And that it why it is "Amazing Grace". God has taken dust and put His Spirit within those who were enemies and aliens so that we might praise Him eternally and continuously for the glory of His grace.
But why should God be so gracious? Because He is God and not man. He is "the God of all grace" and He can be gracious to us because He placed all our iniquities on His on own uniquely begotten and well-beloved Son. So all we can do now is thank Him for His grace, and depart from all iniquity.
In His grace, He has also given every believer the gift of the Holy Spirit, to enable us to love Him and serve Him as we ought to, and to love others as Christ loves them. This is the whole duty of man.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Why is grace so greatly misunderstood? - 4/27/2008 6:15:26 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
The origin of the grace of God comes from Gods own willingness to bestow love and benificent kindnesses to that person. Gods foreknowledge of them contained with in it more than just a view to the future but a plan to express love toward that person. Grace is the expression of Gods love, not from what God saw in that man, but what God purposed in himself to do for that man. This grace is a priori to the person believing, repenting or obeying God.
This is too good to be true, its too kind, too gracious, too wonderful to accept. God just 'giving' me favor because it made him happy to do so; it runs counter to everything the carnal enmity of man has built up in its reasonings against God. Its not fair to be loved as if we were so valuable and so precious when there is not a single thread of our being that can lay claim to deserving it. Its not fair to overthrow the disapproval my mind has against God with unearned, undeserved, unmerited favor all packaged in countless kindnesses, helps, counsels, decisions, protections, chastenings, providences that brought me to this place of recognizing I am more than a debtor to the law because of sin, but a debtor to love because of super abundant mercies I never asked for or wanted.
John
Brilliant, John...
The whole post was brilliant!
All the last posts are brilliant!
And to think we will be forever before the Lamb worshipping and praising Him for such grace!
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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