No Christ equals Hell ? (Full Version)

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Pladio -> No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 2:03:42 PM)

Hello,
First of all I would like to introduce myself. My name is David. I am not a Christian, but I am very interested in all religions and since Christianity is very close to me and my life, especially lately, I would like to ask several questions.

One thing that I have rouble with is this:
I have heard many times that people who do not believe in Jesus (as in God and Son of God) go to Hell. Is this true ?
If it is, then this means that someone who devotes his whole life to helping others and making others' lifes better will go to hell, while someone who lies, deceives and does other bad stuff will go to heaven if he truly believes in Jesus, since his sins wil be forgiven. Is all of this true ?
I have other questions on this subject, but I would like some answers first.



stellaluna -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 2:16:20 PM)

That's essentially correct, yes. Salvation comes by faith only; no matter how "good" one is or how many "good" things one does, one cannot save oneself.



zoebob -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 2:34:14 PM)

That is essentially correct...

1. everyone sins at some point.
2. Only the death and resurrection of Christ adn the Grace of God can save you.
3. People who continue to sin and not care probably aren't truly saved. A true Christian will care and be sorry and repentant of their sin.



kmangel -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 2:39:36 PM)

What God wants from you is for you to realize that you are a sinner, repent of your sins, and receive him as Savior and Lord. It is as you do so that you will be "born again"--not physically, but spiritually. It's not about your doing good works or not doing good works. It's about realizing that you are in need of a Savior. If you don't realize that you are a sinner then you wont realize you need a Savior. You will think this life is all about what you want to make out of it on your own terms. You may think that you are doing quite well all by yourself. Perhaps right now that's how you feel. You may by human standards be a pretty good person. Much nicer to be around than a lot of people we read about in the newspapers every day.

Do you see yourself as a sinner? Someone who fails to do what is right but chooses to be selfish and do what feels good at the expense of someone else? Sin is not just murder, rape, or robbery. Sin is failing to do the things we should and doing those things that we should not. Sin is anything that fails to meet God's standard of perfection. It is sin that separates you from God. Just as light and dark cannot exist together, neither can God and sin. Sin also separates us from each other. Those people we read about in the newspapers doing horrible deeds certainly speak of how we humans can become separated because of sin.



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 3:05:00 PM)

But if people who are essentially good, and do not believe in Jesus go to Hell, then why are all the other teachings of Jesus (or the Bible in general), e.g.: Love thy neighbour, of lesser importance. Of what I have been told, Jesus wants people to be good-hearted and do good for the world. Why does it matter so much if you believe or not?
I am not talking exclusively about me, mostly about other people who do good.

Also, another very important aspect is:
What about people who have never heard of Jesus, are they all going to hell, no matter how good or bad they are? How can people who don't even know, be sent to Hell ? Isn't that a bad thing ? How can God send people who have never even heard about him to Hell?



rcjames -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 3:52:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio
One thing that I have rouble with is this:
I have heard many times that people who do not believe in Jesus (as in God and Son of God) go to Hell. Is this true ?
Is all of this true ?
I have other questions on this subject, but I would like some answers first.


Well that is not essenciatlly correct that without Christ the only outcome is hell; it is exacly correct. Jesus said;

(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now that leaves no wiggle room for universalistic or inclusive thought.

quote:

If it is, then this means that someone who devotes his whole life to helping others and making others' lifes better will go to hell, while someone who lies, deceives and does other bad stuff will go to heaven if he truly believes in Jesus, since his sins wil be forgiven.


One who believes, has Christ, is a Christian will not lie, decieve others and do other bad stuff;

Jesus is very plain about living q Holy and Godly lifem and Scripture tell us exactly what kind of lile a Christian should live;

(Rom 12:1,2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
And Christ also says;

(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

So folks who do the bad things you refer to are not Christians and are bound for hell, Christ is even more specific in;

(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if one is a Christian they can be sorrowful for thier sin as a Christian, confess that sin, and repent of that sin and be forgiven and restored to a relationship with Chrixt.

But the same applies to the unbeliever, he can be sorrowful for his sin (the sin of unbelief), confess that sin, repent of being a non-believer and become a believer.

Wow, isn't that great; God is an equal opportunity employer.

If you are a believer and sin there is a way to be restored, if you are not a believer there is a way to become a believe and then if you sin there is a way to be restored.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 5:52:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio
One thing that I have rouble with is this:
I have heard many times that people who do not believe in Jesus (as in God and Son of God) go to Hell. Is this true ?
Is all of this true ?
I have other questions on this subject, but I would like some answers first.


Well that is not essenciatlly correct that without Christ the only outcome is hell; it is exacly correct. Jesus said;

(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now that leaves no wiggle room for universalistic or inclusive thought.


I don't understand what you mean by what you said here. You said it's not correct, but it is. Then that Jesus said that there is only salvation through belief in him. So is it correct or not ?
quote:


quote:

If it is, then this means that someone who devotes his whole life to helping others and making others' lifes better will go to hell, while someone who lies, deceives and does other bad stuff will go to heaven if he truly believes in Jesus, since his sins wil be forgiven.


One who believes, has Christ, is a Christian will not lie, decieve others and do other bad stuff;

Jesus is very plain about living q Holy and Godly lifem and Scripture tell us exactly what kind of lile a Christian should live;

(Rom 12:1,2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
And Christ also says;

(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

So folks who do the bad things you refer to are not Christians and are bound for hell, Christ is even more specific in;

(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if one is a Christian they can be sorrowful for thier sin as a Christian, confess that sin, and repent of that sin and be forgiven and restored to a relationship with Chrixt.

But the same applies to the unbeliever, he can be sorrowful for his sin (the sin of unbelief), confess that sin, repent of being a non-believer and become a believer.

Wow, isn't that great; God is an equal opportunity employer.

If you are a believer and sin there is a way to be restored, if you are not a believer there is a way to become a believe and then if you sin there is a way to be restored.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling


But believing in something instead of believing in something else or not believing isn't the same thing as to stop committing a sin.
Doing something bad (e.g.: steal) and stop doing it (e.g.:stop stealing) is nothing in comparison to changing someone's state of mind. So, equal opportunity,... Not really.


Bad example, but one nonetheless:
If I belief dragons don't exist because I've never seen one, but I know people who do believe dragons exist, it doesn't help me in believing in dragons.

If I like conning people into giving me their money, because I like more money, I can stop because I have enough money or because I got caught or because that life got boring.... And so on and so on....



ames01 -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 6:39:57 PM)

quote:

I don't understand what you mean by what you said here. You said it's not correct, but it is. Then that Jesus said that there is only salvation through belief in him. So is it correct or not ?


I'm not RC, but I believe he was referring to the first two replies, which used the wording "essentially correct." RC was taking issue with the word essentially and saying instead that it should be exactly. He wasn't saying that the statement itself wasn't correct.



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 7:25:43 PM)

Oh, alright, but then RC, can you answer my follow-up question ?



armydude -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/20/2008 7:59:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio

Oh, alright, but then RC, can you answer my follow-up question ?
He was saying "essentially correct" doesn't do it justice. It is 100% true. Christianity is about Jesus. Paul said that he would preach Christ and Him crucified. And nothing else.
We would do well to imitate that, but that's another story.
You may be thinking, "This idea is crazy. Belief in Jesus is all that can get me into heaven? And a lack of that belief is all that would put me in hell? That's just crazy!" But it's true.

It may sound absurd that Jesus came to earth, lived a perfect life, and voluntarily died the death that we deserved. It may also sound absurd that He rose again, and that our belief in all of this is the key. But that's the truth. And it's the absurdity that gives the gospel message its greatest support. Because only God can love like that.



SonInMe1 -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 12:19:24 AM)

Sin does one thing. It seperates you from God. God is pure and holy. Sin cannot survive around God. If we came to God with sin in our lives we would die. God does not want that. God wants to have a loving relationship with us.

The bible says there is life in the blood. Even science agrees with this. Blood is core to life. A blood sacrifice was needed so our sins could be attoned...cleaned up so we can have a relationship with God. These were the Old Testament sacrifices the first part of the bible.

Jesus came to be the final attonement. The last blood sacrifice. Now in the Old Testament, there would be a virgin perfect lamb sacrificed for the attonement of sins. Jesus was the last Lamb sacrifice. Hos blood shed was the final attonement and to be covered by that attonement, to have that attonement work in our lives is accomplished through believing that...

Jesus did die for our sins. That three days later He arose back to life and is alive today with His Father, God, in Heaven.

Believing in that saves us.

When we are saved, God will send the Councilor, the Holy Spirit, to live in us. To help us and to guide us and to keep us on the right path.

You will find many christians believe in a great many slight differences but essentially we all believe this. There is saving faith and that faith can only be found in Christ Jesus. One little sin is enough to keep us eternally from God and belief in Christ covers those sins forever.

It is THE Truth. Truth...is truth and there are not many truths. There is...only truth and the Truth is....Jesus Christ.



kmangel -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 9:02:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio

Of what I have been told, Jesus wants people to be good-hearted and do good for the world. Why does it matter so much if you believe or not?
I am not talking exclusively about me, mostly about other people who do good.



Before you worry about all the other people in the world, you really have to start with yourself.

What would you say are God's requirements for you to go to heaven? Living a good life, being a good person, helping those in need, keeping the ten commandments--or as you stated being good hearted and doing good for the world? Do you believe God's requirements should involve living a good life, helping others, and keeping to rules like the ten commandments? If you do, then you believe as most people believe--that to get to heaven takes living a good life and being a good person.

This response is the response of religion. Religion is man's attempt to reach up and become acceptable to God through our own goodness--by living a good life, keeping certain rules or obeying the ten commandments. Some religions teach that this cannot be accomplished in one lifetime, so we have to live many lives until we are finally good enough to make it into heaven. The problem with religion's answer is that the Bible says if we are ever to become acceptable to God, we must be absolutely perfect. The Bible says "Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

Are you perfect?



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 11:53:29 AM)

quote:

He was saying "essentially correct" doesn't do it justice. It is 100% true. Christianity is about Jesus. Paul said that he would preach Christ and Him crucified. And nothing else.
We would do well to imitate that, but that's another story.
You may be thinking, "This idea is crazy. Belief in Jesus is all that can get me into heaven? And a lack of that belief is all that would put me in hell? That's just crazy!" But it's true.

It may sound absurd that Jesus came to earth, lived a perfect life, and voluntarily died the death that we deserved. It may also sound absurd that He rose again, and that our belief in all of this is the key. But that's the truth. And it's the absurdity that gives the gospel message its greatest support. Because only God can love like that.


So can you also answer my follow-up question ?

quote:

Sin does one thing. It seperates you from God. God is pure and holy. Sin cannot survive around God. If we came to God with sin in our lives we would die. God does not want that. God wants to have a loving relationship with us.

The bible says there is life in the blood. Even science agrees with this. Blood is core to life. A blood sacrifice was needed so our sins could be attoned...cleaned up so we can have a relationship with God. These were the Old Testament sacrifices the first part of the bible.

Jesus came to be the final attonement. The last blood sacrifice. Now in the Old Testament, there would be a virgin perfect lamb sacrificed for the attonement of sins. Jesus was the last Lamb sacrifice. Hos blood shed was the final attonement and to be covered by that attonement, to have that attonement work in our lives is accomplished through believing that...

Jesus did die for our sins. That three days later He arose back to life and is alive today with His Father, God, in Heaven.

Believing in that saves us.

When we are saved, God will send the Councilor, the Holy Spirit, to live in us. To help us and to guide us and to keep us on the right path.

You will find many christians believe in a great many slight differences but essentially we all believe this. There is saving faith and that faith can only be found in Christ Jesus. One little sin is enough to keep us eternally from God and belief in Christ covers those sins forever.

It is THE Truth. Truth...is truth and there are not many truths. There is...only truth and the Truth is....Jesus Christ.


So, if one sin can keep you from going to heaven, then why do you sin ? (If you tell me you have never sinned, then I will have a lot of trouble believing you)

Also, it MIGHT be the truth, how do you know Jesus is the truth ? Why can't it be anything else ?
I'm trying to understand here, but just saying it is that way, because that's the way it is isn't very convincing.


quote:

Before you worry about all the other people in the world, you really have to start with yourself.

What would you say are God's requirements for you to go to heaven? Living a good life, being a good person, helping those in need, keeping the ten commandments--or as you stated being good hearted and doing good for the world? Do you believe God's requirements should involve living a good life, helping others, and keeping to rules like the ten commandments? If you do, then you believe as most people believe--that to get to heaven takes living a good life and being a good person.

This response is the response of religion. Religion is man's attempt to reach up and become acceptable to God through our own goodness--by living a good life, keeping certain rules or obeying the ten commandments. Some religions teach that this cannot be accomplished in one lifetime, so we have to live many lives until we are finally good enough to make it into heaven. The problem with religion's answer is that the Bible says if we are ever to become acceptable to God, we must be absolutely perfect. The Bible says "Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

Are you perfect?


Let me start from your first question and then go on.
Yes, I would say, that being kind-hearted, a good person and so on would let me go to heaven. The response of Christianity however is that that isn't the case. You don't go to heaven if you're a good person. You go to hell. How does that make any sense at all ?

And no I'm not perfect, but I've never met someone who is. I don't believe you're perfect neither.



I'll ask my other question again, since no one seems to have bothered to answer it...

If there are people in the world who have never even heard of Jesus, but they do the greatest of things to their fellow human beings. Do they also go to Hell? Since its not possible for them to know Jesus...



Kat_D -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 12:15:27 PM)

quote:

If there are people in the world who have never even heard of Jesus, but they do the greatest of things to their fellow human beings. Do they also go to Hell? Since its not possible for them to know Jesus...


Yes, because you do not escape hell and get to heaven by works. There is but One way... by belief and faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." 4 You know the way to the place where I am going." 5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -John 14

Jesus can and will reveal himself to the most isolated tribe in Africa without words. He said:

37 "When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen: 38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!" 39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!" 40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." -Luke 19

No excuses...if you search for Him, you will find Him. He knocks on the door of every heart:

20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." -Revelations 3



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 12:28:28 PM)

Nope, he doesn't. Many, many, many tribes in Africa have never heard of Jesus, and even if some of them have now, it took 1900 years before they did, so the generations of 1900 years all went to hell ? It took more than 200 years for Christianity to propagate through even Europe, one of the smallest continents in the world, so 200 years worth of people around the whole world went to Hell ?

And you see all of the above as a good thing ?
You do understand you just said that people who weren't even given a choice between Jesus or anything else went to hell... It's not even as if they rejected Christ... They weren't capable of knowing he existed!



Kat_D -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 1:03:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio

Nope, he doesn't. Many, many, many tribes in Africa have never heard of Jesus, and even if some of them have now, it took 1900 years before they did, so the generations of 1900 years all went to hell ? It took more than 200 years for Christianity to propagate through even Europe, one of the smallest continents in the world, so 200 years worth of people around the whole world went to Hell ?

And you see all of the above as a good thing ?
You do understand you just said that people who weren't even given a choice between Jesus or anything else went to hell... It's not even as if they rejected Christ... They weren't capable of knowing he existed!


Did you even read my post?

I didn't say these things, God said them in His Word and that is the ultimate Truth. You can argue about what He said and the validity or fairness of what He said till the cows come home, but it doesn't change the Truth of His Word.



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 1:18:47 PM)

So you did imply it. If you answer my question, which was: Do people who have never heard of Jesus go to hell? by a positive answer: Yes they do. then you did say that all these people are going to hell.

Now in your last post you said, that that is the ultimate truth ... How do you know that the truth of Christ is the ultimate truth ? And if it is for you, then you do believe that all those people went to hell...



Kat_D -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 1:26:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio

So you did imply it. If you answer my question, which was: Do people who have never heard of Jesus go to hell? by a positive answer: Yes they do. then you did say that all these people are going to hell.

Now in your last post you said, that that is the ultimate truth ... How do you know that the truth of Christ is the ultimate truth ? And if it is for you, then you do believe that all those people went to hell...


Yes I said it...and I based on God's Word which is why I followed it with specific Scriptures. Last time I looked, you were on a Christian site. The Word of God is the foundation for what we, as Christians, believe. You will likely see it quoted often, so if you can't deal with that, this may not be the site for you.



HisCovenant -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 1:26:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio
I'll ask my other question again, since no one seems to have bothered to answer it...

If there are people in the world who have never even heard of Jesus, but they do the greatest of things to their fellow human beings. Do they also go to Hell? Since its not possible for them to know Jesus...

God can reveal Himself apart from specific knowledge of Jesus. He did do to Abraham, Adam & Eve, David, etc, who believed that Jesus was coming without understanding all the ins and outs of the actual man Jesus. But it's still believing in Jesus. Here's a passage in the Bible that may help you understand a bit (or may confuse you more [;)]:)

Romans 1:16-20

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, forit is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This scripture says that Creation gives the man who hasn't heard about Jesus enough knowledge of God to choose Him. If you read the entire chapter, you can see how God gives those who reject Him over to evil actions. IMO, God also protects those who don't reject Him from doing wrong. An example of this is Joseph knowing adultery was wrong before the 10 commandments were given.


I guess my short answer is that it is 100% true that Jesus is the only way, but that God can and has reveal it differently at times than the way we in the church expect Him to reveal Christ because we have experienced it being given through the Gospels (the Good news that Christ made a way for us all.) Having it being given through the Gospels is all most of us know.



lpt -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 2:28:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio

So you did imply it. If you answer my question, which was: Do people who have never heard of Jesus go to hell? by a positive answer: Yes they do. then you did say that all these people are going to hell.

Now in your last post you said, that that is the ultimate truth ... How do you know that the truth of Christ is the ultimate truth ? And if it is for you, then you do believe that all those people went to hell...


The thing is, David, you have heard of Jesus.

The other thing is that we're all deserving of hell. We have all broken God's commandments, and breaking just one of them once disqualifies us from entering into heaven, a perfect location for flawless people. It's not "disbelieving in Jesus" that damns us to hell. It's our breaking God's law that damns us to hell.

But there's good news, David. God has made a way for us sinful people to enter into heaven: surrendering our messed up lives to the Savior, Christ.

Back to your question about people in Africa who've never heard of Jesus.... God is just, and He is good. This Author of Good will judge well. I'm just glad it's not up to me to do the judging....



LCannon -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 2:29:36 PM)

Well perhaps, you shouldn't be that concerned about 'people who have never heard of Jesus' until you've been redeemed by Christ's blood/scarifice/Victory, Pladio, because you are in the same boat as the 'pagan masses'! Even the pagan is responsible to the light of nature and circumstance God has granted them.

You have been granted much more:The ABC's of Faith

Admit- John 1:11,12

Believe- Romans 3:22,23

Confess- Romans 10:8-10

The issue isn't our performance; it's whether we've claimed the right to become redeemed of God in what light we've been given and appropriated that light growth and personal potential.



Pladio -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 2:44:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pladio

So you did imply it. If you answer my question, which was: Do people who have never heard of Jesus go to hell? by a positive answer: Yes they do. then you did say that all these people are going to hell.

Now in your last post you said, that that is the ultimate truth ... How do you know that the truth of Christ is the ultimate truth ? And if it is for you, then you do believe that all those people went to hell...


Yes I said it...and I based on God's Word which is why I followed it with specific Scriptures. Last time I looked, you were on a Christian site. The Word of God is the foundation for what we, as Christians, believe. You will likely see it quoted often, so if you can't deal with that, this may not be the site for you.


So, why do you say, you didn't say it ? I have no trouble listening to what you have to say. And even though you asked me if I had even read your post while it was obvious that I had, I replied politely. I have been on many forums before and I always read what people post. It is possible I misunderstand people, but I always enjoy reading people's posts. Telling me to go away however is an insult, especially since you were the one who didn't even read my post. (Since you contradicted yourself)

quote:

God can reveal Himself apart from specific knowledge of Jesus. He did do to Abraham, Adam & Eve, David, etc, who believed that Jesus was coming without understanding all the ins and outs of the actual man Jesus. But it's still believing in Jesus. Here's a passage in the Bible that may help you understand a bit (or may confuse you more :)

Romans 1:16-20

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, forit is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This scripture says that Creation gives the man who hasn't heard about Jesus enough knowledge of God to choose Him. If you read the entire chapter, you can see how God gives those who reject Him over to evil actions. IMO, God also protects those who don't reject Him from doing wrong. An example of this is Joseph knowing adultery was wrong before the 10 commandments were given.


I guess my short answer is that it is 100% true that Jesus is the only way, but that God can and has reveal it differently at times than the way we in the church expect Him to reveal Christ because we have experienced it being given through the Gospels (the Good news that Christ made a way for us all.) Having it being given through the Gospels is all most of us know.


First of all, I would like to thank you and others who have decided not to be rude, but instead try to teach me what they believe.

I understand most of what you're saying, except for the fact that people seeing unimaginable things happen, won't necessarily believe in Christ... They might believe in one true God (, maybe several Gods or maybe even in the supernatural). So, is believing in Jesus the essential part (even if God shows himself without showing his Son ? Or is believing in God more important ?

Of course, these questions presume that believing in the Son of God (as God), implies that you also believe in God.

Another question:

Why is the belief in Jesus that essential in Christianity ? Why isn't the belief in the Holy Spirit as often mentioned ? Or even the belief in the Father ?



stellaluna -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 2:53:47 PM)

The resurrection of Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity.



HisCovenant -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 2:59:54 PM)

quote:

First of all, I would like to thank you and others who have decided not to be rude, but instead try to teach me what they believe.

You are welcome. we all have to learn somewhere and work through our understanding. I've been there (and still am in many areas.)

quote:

I understand most of what you're saying, except for the fact that people seeing unimaginable things happen, won't necessarily believe in Christ... They might believe in one true God (, maybe several Gods or maybe even in the supernatural). So, is believing in Jesus the essential part (even if God shows himself without showing his Son ? Or is believing in God more important ?

Of course, these questions presume that believing in the Son of God (as God), implies that you also believe in God.

I'm not sure I have a satisfactory answer for you. God is God alone. A god or gods are not the same as God of Abraham. The supernatural is not necessarily God... what about demons, angels of God, or our own imagination?

I believe that God wouldn't let see Him and yet not give them all they needed to make the choice for His way (which includes His son, Jesus.) I believe this because of how I have read of God dealing with the Israelites before Christ came. I believe this because I know God is good and just, as lpt says. I believe this because I have seen how God has dealt gently with me in my lack of knowledge and sin.

This is a really tough question to answer. In the end, my answer is that I have faith that God is good, fair, and just. Which to someone without faith probably looks like a cop out.

quote:

Why is the belief in Jesus that essential in Christianity ? Why isn't the belief in the Holy Spirit as often mentioned ? Or even the belief in the Father ?
Because it's all the same thing. The Holy Spirit, Christ and God are one. If you believe God, then you believe that He sent His son and the comforter to help us. If you believe in the Holy Spirit, you believe in the other manifestations of God.

I should add that believing in God also includes trusting Him to the point of actoin on our part. It is not the same thing as know that a God exists. You see? Believing in God is different than believeing about God?



HisCovenant -> RE: No Christ equals Hell ? (4/21/2008 3:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
quote:

Why is the belief in Jesus that essential in Christianity ? Why isn't the belief in the Holy Spirit as often mentioned ? Or even the belief in the Father ?
Because it's all the same thing. The Holy Spirit, Christ and God are one. If you believe God, then you believe that He sent His son and the comforter to help us. If you believe in the Holy Spirit, you believe in the other manifestations of God.


I don't feel like I explained well, so I wanted to show you something in Genesis that may help you understand.

The Holy Spirit and Christ have been a part of God since the beginning. You can't really separate them. They were an integral part of how God dealt with the Jews and thei ancestors. Here's an example in Genesis that you can see:

Gen1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Gen 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Notice in Chapter 1 that God is speaking of himself in the plural. Christians believe this is the first reference in the Bible to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Notice in Chapter 3 the prophecy of an offspring that will defeat Satan. We know that the serpant is Satan because other scripture specifically names the serpent. If you like, I can find that for you.

So from this, you can see that Christ and the Holy Spirit was a part of God from the beginning and how believing in one is also believeing in the other two because they are one.



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