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[Poll]
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Could Jesus have sinned?
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| Jesus was God so he was infallible |
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| Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible |
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| I have no idea. |
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Total Votes : 41
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(last vote on : 5/6/2008 11:27:41 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/3/2008 10:17:38 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Jesus succeeded. So please respond to Ezra and tell us if Jesus was forced to submit to the Father's Will, predestined to remain dependent, or spiritually incapable of setting aside His own will. If none of those, then Jesus could have sinned!
Thanks, but I believe my statement is complete as it is. Peace.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/3/2008 10:30:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Thanks, but I believe my statement is complete as it is. Peace. Well, it's not as I pointed out, but you're famous for incompleteness, so peace to you to.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/3/2008 10:50:32 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
Yes indeed, URF, we understand how Jesus succeeded. The real debate here is why Jesus succeeded. So please respond to Ezra and tell us if Jesus was forced to submit to the Father's Will, predestined to remain dependent, or spiritually incapable of setting aside His own will. If none of those, then Jesus could have sinned!
I see! said the blind man.I finally get what you're saying.Did Jesus have faith?I think I see something here that haven't pieced together before now.An answer to this question will go a long way in helping me to see if my thinking is on the right track.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 5/4/2008 7:22:40 AM >
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 7:37:18 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Did Jesus have faith? Better yet - in whom or what did Jesus have faith? His full humanity or His full divinity?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 7:52:35 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Did Jesus have faith? Better yet - in whom or what did Jesus have faith? His full humanity or His full divinity?
So you're saying that he did have faith?Using this strict definition.the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.By this definition did Jesus operate on this level?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 7:58:52 AM
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drmark
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In His full humanity, how else could Jesus operate, sunofone? His very first temptation was a perfect example of Jesus putting faith in the future provision of His Father instead of relying on His own capability to satisfy hunger. I praise God that "Jesus operated on this level" because He knows perfectly well my struggles and doubts when my faith is weaker than it should be.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 1:11:19 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In His full humanity, how else could Jesus operate, sunofone? His very first temptation was a perfect example of Jesus putting faith in the future provision of His Father instead of relying on His own capability to satisfy hunger. I praise God that "Jesus operated on this level" because He knows perfectly well my struggles and doubts when my faith is weaker than it should be.
I'm not saying I'm right here,but I think I see something I haven't considered before now.I have your question to thank for it.I don't believe Jesus had faith,or needed it.
This is not an attempt to derail the op.it's goes hand in hand in why Jesus did not sin,and why I say he could not sin.
My statement I just made needs to be qualified,and I'll do that as son as I can get thoughts from my head onto paper.I'm still chewing on it trying to digest myself right now.
I have you to thank for this Mark,you've got my brain turning now.Thanks
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 5:01:53 PM
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drmark
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Don't turn your brain into mush, sunofone. How could a fully human Jesus not have faith? That's even worse than denying His free will!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 5:35:00 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
Beanteaser:"Dr, can you clarify this statement for me? Comparing Adam and Jesus is not a fair comparison."
drmark: "That's odd, Beanteaser. Paul thought it was a perfectly fine comparison several times in his letters. Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15 come immediately to mind if you care to review them." dr.mark,
I think it would be more accurate to use the word "contrast" rather than comparison, which means to compare by showing unlikeness or by observing differences.
quote:
beanteaser: "There wasn't an ounce of deity in Adam's being. That is why he sinned. Jesus, on the extremely obvious other hand, was and still is fully divine. That is why he couldn't sin."
drmark:"Once again, this is your opinion of the Incarnated Jesus. One last time, I would like a relevant Scripture passage to support the idea that Jesus could not sin."
When speaking of the Incarnated Jesus, it is important to stress that He was fully man and fully God. Remember, Christ was not a created being. He Himself always was and always will be God. Our Lord was cognizant of this truth even while here on earth living as the Incarnated Jesus. He spoke of seeing Satan falling from Heaven. The Incarnated Jesus was unlike Adam in that He was fully God. Adam was a created being and not fully God. Adam did not co-exist with the Father before time was ever created. He was not part of the inseparable Trinity.
quote:
drmark: "And, BTW, I consider being created in God's Image to be a whole lot more than one mere ounce of deity! Adam was created very good, without a sinful nature, capable of free moral choices and able to distinguish right from wrong. Are these not characteristics of His Creator?"
Again, when speaking of Adam, one cannot say that he was exactly like the Incarnated Jesus in every way. You are right in saying that Adam was created very good. And he was created very good by Jesus Christ, who is the Second Person of the Trinity. Creator and created are vastly different from each other.
Heavendweller
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 6:25:55 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Don't turn your brain into mush, sunofone. How could a fully human Jesus not have faith? That's even worse than denying His free will!
I'll try not Mark  I'm still trying to find a way to condense whats in my head into a concise post.I don't want to be long winded,but can't afford to make assertions without properly qualifying them.
Perhaps it's best to serve it up in small chunks.I really do have you to thank for this daunting exercise,or perhaps to blame  At any rate I'm as happy as a pig in slop right now just trying to keep up with my neurons firing.
In Hebrews chp 2 vs 10 might be as good as any starting point to kick things off.Jesus was part and parcel of an elaborate well conceived plan.He was born,brought to us with a purpose. Luke gives us some clue as to just how early it was evident that he was more than a typical human in chp2 vs 46-47,and we know in vs 49 that he was keenly aware of both his purpose and who and whose he was.
I say that to say this,Jesus was on a mission.His mission being clear to him gave him reason,motivation to accomplish what was set before him.Hebrews 12 vs 2 confirms that Jesus had great purpose.Philippians chp2 vs 5-8 further underscores that Jesus was not driven against his will to perfectly execute his role as humble servant.
So I see Jesus as one who was aware of his purpose,and intent on successfully completing it.I think at this point it's fair to pause and the question in light of this,was failure an option?
Before the question is answered,it's probably equally fair to ask if Jesus broke all the rules of human existence,meaning was he simply God in a human casing,making it impossible for him to know,participate and relate to our human condition.
Hebrews 2 chp 14 removes any doubt as to whether he was indeed human as we,vs 17-18 shows us that he was so much like us that he can relate to our sufferings,because he to suffered.
Hebrews 5 vs 8 goes further to show that even though while on earth he enjoyed great privilege being the Son of God he was not exempted from learning,ie.. experiencing obedience from suffering.
Luke says in chp 4 that his time of suffering was thorough,the wording of which suggest that he was tested by satan for forty days.
I'll try to wrap this up and get to my point,didn't mean or intend to write this much,I apologize.The last thing I want to highlight is Jesus preparation.Luke 2 vs 52 shows progression in that Jesus grew not only in normal development as all humans do,but he was increasing in wisdom and in favor in God.
Luke chp 4 vs after Jesus baptism we find Jesus being described as being full of the Holy Spirit,it is after this time that he is tested.After having fully prepared himself in every way he was then tested.
So in consideration of these facts,I ask was Jesus prepared,equipped to pass the test? Being the perfect union of God and Man was he able to prove his obedience?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 10:52:42 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3122
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quote:
So in consideration of these facts,I ask was Jesus prepared,equipped to pass the test? Being the perfect union of God and Man was he able to prove his obedience? Well, it's a very fine dissertation, sunofone, and I believe the answer is YES to both your questions. But I wish to reverse the tables and ask you the same questions of the initially created Adam and Eve. BTW, I shared this very same issue with Beanteaser and received no cogent response (see #134 above).
Adam and Eve were created very good, without a sinful nature, capable of free moral choices and able to distinguish right from wrong. So in consideration of these facts, I ask were they prepared, equipped to pass the test? Being the very good creatures of God in His Image, were they able to prove His obedience?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/4/2008 11:04:59 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 432
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So in consideration of these facts,I ask was Jesus prepared,equipped to pass the test? Being the perfect union of God and Man was he able to prove his obedience? Well, it's a very fine dissertation, sunofone, and I believe the answer is YES to both your questions. But I wish to reverse the tables and ask you the same questions of the initially created Adam and Eve. BTW, I shared this very same issue with Beanteaser and received no cogent response (see #134 above).
Adam and Eve were created very good, without a sinful nature, capable of free moral choices and able to distinguish right from wrong. So in consideration of these facts, I ask were they prepared, equipped to pass the test? Being the very good creatures of God in His Image, were they able to prove His obedience?
Mark I don't expect to have anyone agree with what I'm about to post in response to your question,but I decided to throw caution to the wind and reveal where my thoughts are.I'm not terribly dogmatic about it,just sharing where my thoughts are.
Just as a prelude to my thoughts I use a strict literal interpretation of Adam and Eve not having a knowledge of good and evil prior to their disobedient act rendering it impossible for them to know right and wrong in the sense that we now know it.Right and wrong has to encompass good and evil.
I'll attempt a cliff notes version of where my thoughts are going.I believe Adam & Eve were ill equipped to carry the burden of perfection.
Without a knowledge of good & evil,no concept of faith nor the awareness that a source outside of themselves, was needed in order to be able to successfully fend off satan.
They were dead men walking from the start.Jesus proved that it took a keen awareness of the full counsel of God along with his spirit without measure in order to successfully accomplish this feat.
I do believe that Adam's reason for sin though speculative involved choice.Unlike Eve, his motivation for disobedience was not gain,rather loss.
To know what it was like to be without her,and be faced with losing her was a choice he was unprepared to make.
Abraham too was faced with a similar dilemma,when he was asked to offer Issac up for sacrifice.His ability to follow through was firmly hinged upon his faith that God could and would bring him back.
As I said I don't believe Adam even grasped the concept of faith.God said it himself without faith it is impossible to please him.It was impossible for either of them to please God in their given state.
I guess a question rightfully arises that if I'm correct in my speculation,how then are they held responsible for their actions?
There were two trees in that Garden,both with equal access,I suppose through their example God is showing us the importance of choice.
I said cliff notes version so I'll leave it here, fully realizing that it leaves a lot unsaid.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 7:15:52 AM
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DaveW
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This discussion is really getting bad. The logic of scripture is not our deductive system we got from the Greeks (such as Aristotle) which is mathematic in nature and can be very abstract. Scriptural logic is not abstract at all but is very relational. You cannot make the "if A = B and B = C then A = C" logical step in scripture. In scriptural logic, God is One and God is Three is not a logical problem. It is relational. Fully God and Fully Human is not a logical problem.
This discussion has left that logical framwork so far behind with convoluted logical theological constructs that we have totally lost sight of the plain sense of scripture.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 8:02:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I said cliff notes version so I'll leave it here, fully realizing that it leaves a lot unsaid. At the risk of further oversimplification, your simplified version of original morality is quite fatalistic, sunofone. I pray that we all grow in our understanding of every good thing we have in Christ (Philemon 1:6).
quote:
This discussion has left that logical framwork so far behind with convoluted logical theological constructs that we have totally lost sight of the plain sense of scripture. Agreed, DaveW. Human explanations of the Trinity used to alter the full humanity of Christ are doomed to failure. Yesterday, I shared the Athanasian Creed with my college Sunday School class. I had not read it before and lines 30-37 jumped off the page as strong support for the Jesus I know and love to have freedom of will and faith.
It seems to me that this disagreement on the ability of Jesus to sin is parallel to many disagreements on the nature of sin and the remedy provided by God for such behavior. I'm starting to see a pattern here, especially with the long-time posters, in which one's personal systematic theology makes it very difficult to accept or even appreciate other doctrinal views. Perhaps I will start a new thread to discuss this issue.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 12:10:47 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
[
In Hebrews chp 2 vs 10 might be as good as any starting point to kick things off.Jesus was part and parcel of an elaborate well conceived plan.He was born,brought to us with a purpose. Luke gives us some clue as to just how early it was evident that he was more than a typical human in chp2 vs 46-47,and we know in vs 49 that he was keenly aware of both his purpose and who and whose he was.
I say that to say this,Jesus was on a mission.His mission being clear to him gave him reason,motivation to accomplish what was set before him.Hebrews 12 vs 2 confirms that Jesus had great purpose.Philippians chp2 vs 5-8 further underscores that Jesus was not driven against his will to perfectly execute his role as humble servant.
So I see Jesus as one who was aware of his purpose,and intent on successfully completing it.I think at this point it's fair to pause and the question in light of this,was failure an option?
may i ask you to comment on matthew 26
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
the second have the passage is clear, Jesus humbles Himself to God's will. but why the first part? why does Jesus ask God to remove the cup? it was His mission as you stated above, His purpose for the incarnation.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 12:56:52 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
[
In Hebrews chp 2 vs 10 might be as good as any starting point to kick things off.Jesus was part and parcel of an elaborate well conceived plan.He was born,brought to us with a purpose. Luke gives us some clue as to just how early it was evident that he was more than a typical human in chp2 vs 46-47,and we know in vs 49 that he was keenly aware of both his purpose and who and whose he was.
I say that to say this,Jesus was on a mission.His mission being clear to him gave him reason,motivation to accomplish what was set before him.Hebrews 12 vs 2 confirms that Jesus had great purpose.Philippians chp2 vs 5-8 further underscores that Jesus was not driven against his will to perfectly execute his role as humble servant.
So I see Jesus as one who was aware of his purpose,and intent on successfully completing it.I think at this point it's fair to pause and the question in light of this,was failure an option?
may i ask you to comment on matthew 26
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
the second have the passage is clear, Jesus humbles Himself to God's will. but why the first part? why does Jesus ask God to remove the cup? it was His mission as you stated above, His purpose for the incarnation.
It's interesting that you would bring this up,because I noticed something there that I hadn't really paid attention to before.Mark 14 vs 36 Jesus said to God, all things are possible unto you,take this cup away from me.
Yesterday when I looked at it,it was like I was seeing it for the first time.Jesus was basically saying,God you can accomplish your purpose in any way you see fit,so God take this duty away from me,and fulfill your purpose by some other means.
Then he said not my will,but your will be done.Full submission,and obedience to death,even the death of the cross.There's a lot of meat on this bone Mark.
To your point,it shows perfectly the humanity of Jesus,the legitimate struggle of the human will to submit itself to God's will.To my point this was prayer,which is another tool of preparation,and a source of strength.
This prayer was done mind you before the test which came upon him after prayer had reinforced his resolve to please God.
Mark what I see after really looking at this from an angle I hadn't seen before your rather poignant question here:
"quote:
"Yes indeed, URF, we understand how Jesus succeeded. The real debate here is why Jesus succeeded. So please respond to Ezra and tell us if Jesus was forced to submit to the Father's Will, predestined to remain dependent, or spiritually incapable of setting aside His own will. If none of those, then Jesus could have sinned!"
is that Jesus had a singleness of mind and purpose in coming here,and he was thoroughly prepared for the task at hand.He was tested to reveal his worthiness of the position to which he would be appointed.
The test revealed both his humanity,in that he he could legitimately feel and experience the pull to follow his own human will.It also revealed his preparedness to successfully put his will aside,to accomplish the will of his Father.
By way of example it illustrates to me the capability of a perfect union of a sinless human, who is also full of the Holy Spirit as to be divine.It represents the end game for us all.When we too shall be like him who is the firstborn among many Brothers.
We experience this now in a positional way,yet not fully.We are to like Jesus did concerning God lose ourselves,So that it is no longer I,but Jesus on the inside that is doing the work.
It shows me what God intended and desired when he said let us make Man.Man is not complete in and of himself.Man is only complete in and through Jesus.
Which confirms for me my suspicion that Adam was not the complete human being we like to think he was.He was good as the bible rightfully declares in his created state,but he was not made in the image that God referred to.
To be made involves the process.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 1:08:58 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
The test revealed both his humanity,in that he he could legitimately feel and experience the pull to follow his own human will.It also revealed his preparedness to successfully put his will aside,to accomplish the will of his Father.
i am in agreement with you here, not that my agreement matters  . my concern when entering this discussion was the idea that Jesus had a human will as well as a divine will.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 2:38:30 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
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From: Minnesota
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Man! I missed a ton of discussion over the weekend! I hate when that happens....oh well. Instead of trying to play catch up on all the posts, I want to repost one of my earlier posts that nobody responded to. Plus, it looks like a few people posted over the weekend in a way that is similar to what I would have said. Thanks for getting my back!
Anyway, here is the repost with a little editing.
" This has been an interesting thread so far but I am actually disappointed in the the results. I am completely surprised that half of the people here (so far) believe in a fallible God. What a shame!!
I think the main reason why is half the people fail to understand what the word "tempt" means. A simple minute or two of study can reveal that "tempt" in Matthew 4:7 DOES NOT MEAN "ENTICE!!!!" It simply means "test." Using the resources on this website, the literal meaning of "tempt" are 1. to prove, test, thoroughly 2. to put to proof God's character and power. Satan was objectively testing Jesus to see if He COULD sin. He wasn't subjectively enticing him to see if He WILL sin. The events that took place in the wilderness proved to Satan that Jesus was, and still is God! Understand now?
Hebrews 4:15 is another verse many don't understand. What does "weakness" mean? Well, if we consider the Greek word , which is "Astheneia," we know that it is almost always referring to physical maladies. A few examples are: 1 Timothy 5:23, Acts 28:9, John 11:4, and Luke 8:2. I will concede the point that Astheneia could mean a moral weakness, but it is usually referring to some kind of physical weakness.
I think Hebrews 4:15 should be understood this way.....Jesus was "tested" [in this case "tested" in the most general sense] in all manner of physical maladies like what we humans face, and yet in spite of His physical weakness during these tests [hunger, thirst, fatigue, and especially His scourging and death by crucifixion], He never sinned--a remarkable thing that makes Him unique among men. (I quoted this interpretation from one of my Bible teachers)"
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 2:48:00 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
I think Hebrews 4:15 should be understood this way.....Jesus was "tested" [in this case "tested" in the most general sense] in all manner of physical maladies like what we humans face, and yet in spite of His physical weakness during these tests [hunger, thirst, fatigue, and especially His scourging and death by crucifixion], He never sinned--a remarkable thing that makes Him unique among men. (I quoted this interpretation from one of my Bible teachers)"
beanteaser, i dont mean any disrespect or sarcasism by the following comment but i know sometimes talking via a forumn as this leads to misunderstanding.
if Jesus could not sin, what makes the fact that He did not sin remakable?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 3:47:18 PM
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Beanteaser
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
if Jesus could not sin, what makes the fact that He did not sin remakable?
That's a good question. I quoted that from an Bible teacher and would have to ask him. But what I will say is the fact that he is the only one to never sin is remarkable.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 3:59:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But what I will say is the fact that he is the only one to never sin is remarkable. Not if Jesus is the only human who could never sin in the first place! Then, He is merely following His forced predestiny to sinless obedience and has no earthly concept (pun intended) of what you and I go through when we are tempted. Certainly refutes Hebr 4:15, doesn't it?!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 4:37:20 PM
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Prairiehiker
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So you guys are saying that our salvation was hanging on the balance of whether Jesus would choose to obey or disobey God at any moment of His life?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/5/2008 4:41:25 PM
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Beanteaser
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Dr, No, not at all. I think we need to go back to the basics and discuss the word "tempt." What does it mean? Does it always mean to entice? Jesus was never enticed to sin, at least there aren't any examples in Scriptures. Instead he was "tested" to see if He was God. This happened on a number of occasions.
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