|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 7:46:32 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
While I agree that Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize people "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," I don't think it makes very much difference what formula you use. God will probably accomplish what He desires to accomplish in baptism no matter what the person who's doing the baptism says.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 5:10:11 PM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Curly,
quote:
you cant be baptized in repentance, repentance (verb [ intrans. ]
You're right, but it isn't a baptism "IN" repentance, it's a baptism "OF" repentance IN the "authority/name" of the Father God in heaven which is where this baptism and its authority both come from (Mat 21:3-5). And I also think you can and must experience this baptism's reality just as Jesus did...by John who preached a baptism of repentance. Your belief system does still require a baptism/whelming of repentance prior to salvation doesn't it? The apostle Peter seemed to still think being immersed in the reality of repentance was important...according to the following scripture.
ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent/1st, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins/2nd, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost/3rd.
The baptism of John was a baptism of repentance. Just don't get hung up on the ritual (water) and stay mindful of the reality (fruitful repentance). The ritual 'of the water' simply moved on to the second baptism which was the baptism in the name/authority of Jesus. I do admit not having complete understanding of the 'what or why' of that progression personally?
But I do believe that it is always about the reality being first or foremost though...according to scripture
.
MAT 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said....8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: John the baptist expected the reality and fruit of repentance to precede the ritual of the water.
Your understanding of multiple baptisms is right on Curley. But John 3:5 might be interpreted a number of ways depending on how much understanding one truly has. I know I've seen my understanding of "water" in that particular verse has changed three times in my life. 
Though those less learned may still believe that their is only 'one baptism' essential to the elementary teachings concerning foundational truths, their gospel just doesn't support the simplicity of the following scriptural insight IMO.
HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms,
No myopic teaching of only one baptism in those verses...they plainly state the plurality of baptisms for a singular foundation. Maybe that's why some have never moved on to true spiritual maturity...they are lacking some baptisms.
HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection/maturity; not laying again the foundation...2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,...3 And this will we do, if God permits.
if God permits!!! Why would God not permit moving on into the "maturity of verse 1"??? Unless maybe it's because you've followed some belief system which is only seeing/relying on one baptism??? That appears to be the scriptural point made above to me anyway.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 4/25/2008 5:32:16 PM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 6:08:58 PM
|
|
|
CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Matthew 28:18-19. It's a command. If Jesus commanded it, then the apostles did it.
You're simply dismissing it.
your exactly right it is a command and how did the apostles do it? it shows us in scripture how they did it! i have given the scriptures and am waiting for someone to show me where the apostles/disciples baptized by saying "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" instead of making up your theories lets stick with what the bible says and shows how it was done!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 6:13:00 PM
|
|
|
CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Well, there is only one God and scripture points to One God in Three Persons, not one God who occupies three offices/modes at various times. An office doesn't send the Son and isn't well-pleased with Him. An office doesn't pray to the Father, another office, in Gethsemane.
Luke 11
2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Matthew 26
42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
There was a relationship between Father and Son.
Do you believe that God sometimes, but not always, exists or lives in more than one of his modes.? Or do you believe that there is no time at which God exists or lives in more than one of his modes?
why don't you PM me about Trinity and Jesus-only, but this topic here is about baptism in Jesus name or in the Father Son Holy Ghost! i am still waiting for someone to show me in scripture that the disciples baptized and actually saying Father Son and Holy Ghost!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 6:18:47 PM
|
|
|
CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
True and they cannot backup their baptism claim apart from the book of Acts. Error only begats more error.
Are you saying you base your baptism off of one verse in the Bible? You can read in Matthew that he was telling what the disciples should do and how to do it! No one was being baptized as an example! So where else would you find out how it was done. Well of course Acts because the book is the Acts of the disciples. Would you be comfortable saying that the disciples disobeyed God because they all baptized in Jesus name and never once saying Father Son and Holy Ghost! still waiting for someone to prove to me where i am wrong scripturally instead of just words that aren't even coming from the Bible but just thoughts of humans that create their own scripture to please them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 6:21:29 PM
|
|
|
CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Supposedly:
CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Page 53 -- "The early church always baptized in the Name of Lord Jesus until the development of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century.
Thats exactly right! Thank you for that! i appreciate that you looked back into history and brought this here! it proves my point that its all tradition to be baptized in the name of the "Father, Son and the Holy Ghost"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 6:24:13 PM
|
|
|
CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
While I agree that Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize people "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," I don't think it makes very much difference what formula you use. God will probably accomplish what He desires to accomplish in baptism no matter what the person who's doing the baptism says.
Well there is a big difference actually. You can either repeat what Jesus told the disciples, but you are not obeying the Word! because you see later in Acts baptism was only done in Jesus name! What does the Bible talk about on "disobeying?"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 6:38:11 PM
|
|
|
CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
|
Him4all
I agree that there is more than just one baptism (immersion of water), and yes people do take John 3:5 in different ways but i believe that there is two at least! i would need to do more study on repentance and if that really is a form of baptism! i dont say i disagree with you because you have given a valid point that it could very well be! i will check it out myself with prayer! i have come to think and i could be wrong on this so dont qoute me or anything this is just me saying this! i think that there could be different meanings of repentance and how it is done, but i am not sure like i said i need to do a study just on repentance because you have brought up come interesting stuff!
God Bless you!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 8:13:33 PM
|
|
|
Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2306
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
quote:
Supposedly:
CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Page 53 -- "The early church always baptized in the Name of Lord Jesus until the development of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century.
Thats exactly right! Thank you for that! i appreciate that you looked back into history and brought this here! it proves my point that its all tradition to be baptized in the name of the "Father, Son and the Holy Ghost"
I don't see how that would make a baptism invalid. Nor do I see modalism in my Bible. So if you baptize in the name of Jesus' only, and you claim that there is no time at which God exists or lives in more than one of his modes, I see some major problems with your beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/25/2008 9:47:20 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
No myopic teaching of only one baptism in those verses...they plainly state the plurality of baptisms for a singular foundation. Maybe that's why some have never moved on to true spiritual maturity...they are lacking some baptisms.
I wonder how this thought fits in with Paul's assertion in Ephesians 4:5 that there is only one baptism. Surely you don't think the Apostle Paul is myopic by teaching only one baptism?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 1:02:31 AM
|
|
|
Jay2000
Posts: 5
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Maine
Status: offline
|
Hi Curly,
Not to add to your frustration but the Greek in Matt 28:19 means to baptize into the possession of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Greek is eis to onoma "into the possession of." This is not a formula. It is difficult sometimes when reading translations as they do not always bring out the exact meaning of the word in context. The same thing happens in v. 18 when it reads "Go" is actually the Greek word poreuomai wich has the conotation of "as you are going on your journey." So v. 18 should read "As you are going on your journey make disciples..."
I hope this helps some. Get a hold of some good lexicons and look at the words. They helped me understand so much more.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 1:18:42 AM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Curly,
quote:
i need to do a study just on repentance because you have brought up come interesting stuff!
May "the Spirit of truth" and "the annointing within" be with you in your study.
greatdivide46,
Remember taking those tests in school where you were supposed to pick out the one thing that didn't fit in a listing of four things? Example: What doesn't fit in this list? Rose, lilly, carnation, rock. Got the answer? It's rock of course. Now lets apply that same logic to the 'one baptism' verse.
EPH 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father
"One Lord"...is that speaking of you or Jesus?
"One faith"...is that faith in you or Jesus?
"One God"and Father...is that like when Isa 9:6 said Jesus' name was "mighty God, Everlasting Father or is it talking about you?
Now, we only have "One baptism" left in that list, so the question is: Is that 'a baptism' that pertains to Jesus...or to you?
LUK 12:50 But I/Jesus have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
The baptism spoken of here is the baptism of the death of Jesus on the cross. And that is the only baptism necessary for us to ALL believe in, which will determine whether we maintain the unity of the Spirit or not...which is the context of Eph 4:3 and this whole list to begin with.
So to answer your question if "Paul is myopic"....the answer, as seen above, is a 'non traditional' no! I hope you can now 'see' my point too. 
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 8:42:38 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
"One Lord"...is that speaking of you or Jesus?
"One faith"...is that faith in you or Jesus?
"One God"and Father...is that like when Isa 9:6 said Jesus' name was "mighty God, Everlasting Father or is it talking about you?
Now, we only have "One baptism" left in that list, so the question is: Is that 'a baptism' that pertains to Jesus...or to you?
Yes, I see your point. I don't agree with it though.
"One Lord" ...is certainly speaking of Jesus.
"One faith" ...is certainly faith in Jesus, but it's my faith.
"One Father" ...is certainly referring to God the Father.
"One baptism" ...is certainly referring to the baptism that I experience as a believer.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 12:20:02 PM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
greatdivide46,
quote:
Yes, I see your point. I don't agree with it though.
I appreciate your honesty.
quote:
"One faith" ...is certainly faith in Jesus, but it's my faith. I obviously believe the 'one faith' is the Christian faith' which is not 'your faith' but that 'system of faith' called Christianity. And the unifying basis for 'that faith' is based upon what Jesus did not what you do. I've read enough of your posts over the years to believe that "your faith in Jesus" doesn't maintain unity of Spirit. It appears to me that unless there's unity of doctrine there is actually Spiritual disunity with most posters here and all Christians who are bound in the 'ism' of denominational or sect type thinking which was spurned in 1Cor 11:18. Those type divisions were also spoken against again in Galatians 5:20 as a "party spirit" RSV.
quote:
"One baptism" ...is certainly referring to the baptism that I experience as a believer.
If it's 'your baptism' then how do you resolve the multiple baptisms which are scripturally required for foundational doctrines of The Faith in Heb 6?
It's been my experience that personal modes of water baptism has brought not only lack of unity, but actual church splits and relational conflict to the body of Christ even to this day. So how does 'your baptism' maintain Spiritual unity? Were you sprinkled or dunked were you of age or an infant, was it in a stangant pool or running water ect. ect. See what I mean? All those variables have promoted division...not unity.
Thoughts?
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 4/26/2008 12:27:31 PM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 12:51:22 PM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
greatdivide46,
Did you mean to leave out 'God' in your quote below? The Eph 4:5 scripture specifically said "one God and Father"?
quote:
"One Father" ...is certainly referring to God the Father.
How can you say it is "certainly" not referring to Jesus when that very truth is spoken of in Isaiah which specifically calls the "child (Jesus) given unto us...The mighty God, The everlasting Father," ? Are you denying these names/authorities are attributable to Jesus?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 3:19:08 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
The only name that the disciples ever knew was Jesus!
Are you claiming that the disciples, who knew the scriptures very well, were ignorant of the name of the LORD?
Exodus 3:15
God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations."
Are you saying that God lied, and that the LORD is not His name for all generations? Are you saying that God changed and decided His name was something different than what He said that it is?
_____________________________
imaginary candy, purple dragon peppermint, thought condensed into little bricks of flavored sugar.
Now 30% nerdier!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/26/2008 10:25:01 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
How can you say it is "certainly" not referring to Jesus when that very truth is spoken of in Isaiah which specifically calls the "child (Jesus) given unto us...The mighty God, The everlasting Father," ? Are you denying these names/authorities are attributable to Jesus? No I am not. But I am denying that "God and Father" in Ephesians 4 is referring to Jesus. Just because the "child given unto us" in Isaiah is referred to as "the mighty God, the everlasting Father" does not mean that every reference to God and the Father is referring to Jesus.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 12:38:54 AM
|
|
|
Him4all
Posts: 390
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
greatdivide46
I appreciate your answer to post 41 and disagree for all the same reasons I gave in post 40. I hope you aren't forgetting the questions in that post. I'd like to hear your answers because my POV lines up with all of the scriptures and I don't see how yours can.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 12:51:33 AM
|
|
|
Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2306
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
|
Modalism first surfaced in the third century in the writings of Sabellius and Paul of Samosata. This heretical view denies there are three distinct persons in God, claiming instead there is only one being who manifests himself in three different modes. Modern Oneness Pentecostals garner support for their modalistic view by interpreting Matthew 28:19 in conjunction with Acts 2:38. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus instructed the disciples, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”(emphasis added). In Acts 2:38, however, Peter instructed his listeners: “Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (emphasis added). Oneness Pentecostals conclude that Jesus Himself must be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because they claim that “Jesus” is the “one name that refers to three titles of one God.” They then assert that the apostles correctly fulfilled Christ’s command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19) by baptizing converts in the name of Jesus only (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48); hence, a Trinitarian baptism is invalid. The phrase “in the name of Jesus” must be pronounced over the person being baptized.
- Ron Rhodes, Is Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit? A Case Study in Oneness Pentecostal Hermeneutics, Christian Research Journal, Vol. 31/ No. 02/2008, p. 50
Evidently, the OP wants to make a point that a Trinitarian baptism is invalid.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 12:57:43 AM
|
|
|
Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2306
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jay2000
Hi Curly,
Not to add to your frustration but the Greek in Matt 28:19 means to baptize into the possession of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Greek is eis to onoma "into the possession of." This is not a formula. It is difficult sometimes when reading translations as they do not always bring out the exact meaning of the word in context. The same thing happens in v. 18 when it reads "Go" is actually the Greek word poreuomai wich has the conotation of "as you are going on your journey." So v. 18 should read "As you are going on your journey make disciples..."
I hope this helps some. Get a hold of some good lexicons and look at the words. They helped me understand so much more.
I appreciate your post!
I believe that eis to onoma may also mean "by the authority of." Am I correct?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 3:58:55 AM
|
|
|
Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2306
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
CurlyQ saidquote:
if you are baptized in the titles "Father Son Holy Ghost" i believe that you're just repeating what Jesus said to do and not obeying what he commanded us to do!
You're suggesting, of course, that repeating the words "Father, Son and HS" is insincere and disobedient but that repeating the words "in the name of Jesus" is sincere and obedient. Somehow, it does not follow that one "merely repeating words" but the other is not.
Some of these Oneness groups claim that unless you have been baptized in Jesus' name only, you would not recognize Him as Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 5:38:43 AM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 2319
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Some of these Oneness groups claim that unless you have been baptized in Jesus' name only, you would not recognize Him as Lord.
Is that what you predict their response would be or do they actually argue that? I will admit that I am not up on my discussions with modalists, so you could be right.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 5:42:29 AM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 2319
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:
greatdivide46
I appreciate your answer to post 41 and disagree for all the same reasons I gave in post 40. I hope you aren't forgetting the questions in that post. I'd like to hear your answers because my POV lines up with all of the scriptures and I don't see how yours can.
DR
Him4All
I don't have time to address it right now but the Isaiah reference to Jesus being the Everlasting Father is probably not a reference to His being God. It is not a denial of Jesus' Godhood but the historical context would probably argue against it--not to mention that it hurts rather than helps the trinitarian doctrine.
Headed off to work.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/27/2008 8:14:03 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
< | | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
