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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/9/2008 10:22:44 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 392
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Fig,
#64 quote:
You are preaching heresy of the worst sort. The "jesus christ" you are teaching is just an idol, with a demon lurking behind it.
#74 quote:
Once again, your heretical teachings have led you to a false conclusion.
1TI 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man but exhort him as you would a father;
I continue to pray for you.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/10/2008 7:49:32 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
You need to realize that when scripture tells us that people were "baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" that scripture is telling the action they took, not necessarily the exact words that were spoken. The apostle's baptized in the authority of Jesus Christ, acting as His proxy. They baptized at His command, asserting that they were doing it as if it were Jesus Christ Himself performing the baptism. (and, indeed, in a spiritual sense, the real baptism is the one that Jesus Christ gives us, baptizing us with the Holy Spirit and fire.) We don't know the words used in performing these baptisms. They might have been done in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek or other langauges. They might have spoken a very proper Hebrew version of Y'shua, or said a more Greek Iesous, or they might have even used LORD, Adonai or even said the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob. They phrasing might have varied, or it might have been the exact same liturgy each time. We simply don't know, because that is not the style that the NT is written in. There are no quotation marks on the original manuscript.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
looks like it was said to me!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/10/2008 10:30:57 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 392
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Curly,
It has been said that: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Is this true of you? Open yourself to the possibility that you're wrong or you will never come to 'revelational' knowledge of the truth from The Spirit of truth.
If you seek the truth and are not just trying to win an argument, then you have to open your mind to what you appear to be missing in your above quote from Fig. It isn't about being able to say the correct name...period. It is about the authority and nature that is associated with legal use of the name. "Open up in the name of the law!", has nothing to do with someone named Law. It has to do with the authority of a badge and a gun.
The son's of Sceva knew how to say the name Jesus correctly when they were practicing their exorcisms. But saying the name correctly didn't impress this demon at all, because they didn't have the authority of the name to back them up.
ACT 19:13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesu over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches."
14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this.
15 But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
Do you understand that in this situation the demons aren't talking about knowing the moniker of Jesus and Paul? And these demons certainly knew what these guys names/monikers were. But it isn't about the moniker/name it is about the authority/character/name that matters in issues of spiritual authority.
Do tell me you can see the point being made here. I won't even ask you to agree, but I do ask with all sincerity...do you even know what's being talked about when we speak of a name as having two different definitions? The one thing is a moniker, and that's what you're hung up on. But the other thing is the character and nature associated with a name. The son's of Sceva did not have the 'character or nature' attributes needed to avail them to the use of the moniker/name/nature of Jesus. It was just a name without power...a word without life...a dead letter.
Would your church let some unsaved heathen come in and baptize someone 'correctly' in the name of Jesus Christ? Why not? Wouldn't it work since they're saying the right name you've been indoctrinated to believe?
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 5/10/2008 10:38:31 PM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/11/2008 6:35:29 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Curly,
It has been said that: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Is this true of you? Open yourself to the possibility that you're wrong or you will never come to 'revelational' knowledge of the truth from The Spirit of truth.
If you seek the truth and are not just trying to win an argument, then you have to open your mind to what you appear to be missing in your above quote from Fig. It isn't about being able to say the correct name...period. It is about the authority and nature that is associated with legal use of the name. "Open up in the name of the law!", has nothing to do with someone named Law. It has to do with the authority of a badge and a gun.
The son's of Sceva knew how to say the name Jesus correctly when they were practicing their exorcisms. But saying the name correctly didn't impress this demon at all, because they didn't have the authority of the name to back them up.
ACT 19:13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesu over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches."
14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this.
15 But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
Do you understand that in this situation the demons aren't talking about knowing the moniker of Jesus and Paul? And these demons certainly knew what these guys names/monikers were. But it isn't about the moniker/name it is about the authority/character/name that matters in issues of spiritual authority.
Do tell me you can see the point being made here. I won't even ask you to agree, but I do ask with all sincerity...do you even know what's being talked about when we speak of a name as having two different definitions? The one thing is a moniker, and that's what you're hung up on. But the other thing is the character and nature associated with a name. The son's of Sceva did not have the 'character or nature' attributes needed to avail them to the use of the moniker/name/nature of Jesus. It was just a name without power...a word without life...a dead letter.
Would your church let some unsaved heathen come in and baptize someone 'correctly' in the name of Jesus Christ? Why not? Wouldn't it work since they're saying the right name you've been indoctrinated to believe?
DR
Yes, my church only baptizes in the name of Jesus Christ!
and to that verse you are using! the evil spirits could recognize the spiritual anointing on their lives but they couldn't recognize it on that one because there was no anointing/authority on that person! thats why the evil spirits asked who he was because there was no power there!
If i knew the president and the vice president and i tried to tell someone that i know the George and Dick and they would like it if you would stop speeding on the road! well chances are they wont listen because who am i! but i have the power and authority being a law enforcement officer it would be different!
same thing in this scripture you have Jesus and Paul, but who is this other fellow? there just wasn't any authority or power because there is no authority he had thats why he was overcome by the spirit!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/12/2008 11:49:28 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 392
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Curly,
It sounds like you are getting what I'm saying but I'm not totally sure if you're getting it all. I agree with the spirit of your George and Dick analogy...but technically they don't determine the state speed limits, or enforce them. I do have a brother in law who does though...and he also has a gun and a badge. He backs his power (the gun) with state authority (the badge).
What I'm not sure of, is whether you still think saying the correct moniker at water baptism is what's at issue here or not. You indicate that you do understand when you say you know George and Dick...but technically you don't know either one of them personally I bet, you only know about them.
I'm saying that the church has the name/authority of God to water baptize and 'what name they say' isn't the point that makes the ceremony valid or not. It's the heart of the recipiant and the authority of the baptizer and not the correct 'formula' of a name/moniker.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/13/2008 5:37:18 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
'm saying that the church has the name/authority of God to water baptize and 'what name they say' isn't the point that makes the ceremony valid or not. It's the heart of the recipiant and the authority of the baptizer and not the correct 'formula' of a name/moniker.
DR
I agree with that to a certain extant! meaning that the person, getting baptized, in their heart is ready to take the change of a new life, but i do think that the name of Jesus should be said by the one who is baptizing, because there is power in the name of Jesus, there is no denying that! i am just a little stubborn i guess when it comes to the name and not saying any names! i think there should be a name applied to everything! like checks in order for them to be valid you have to write your name you cant write Husband, Uncle, Dad on there it would be meaningless and thats just how i see baptism, there must be a name applied and the name i know is Jesus as showed in scripture. that is just my little tid bit on why i believe so strongly in Jesus' name baptism!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/14/2008 4:45:00 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
looks like it was said to me!
You're not going to let go of your preconceived notions are you, even though they're wrong?
See, what Peter said was NOT the performance of a baptism. These words that Peter spoke were not an instruction to speak words, but an instruction to take an action. Being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is not about what words are being spoken, but about the action being taken, being identified with the death of Jesus Christ, His authority as the Only Begotten of the Father, and being raised again to new life and being indwelt by the person of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
i do think that the name of Jesus should be said by the one who is baptizing, because there is power in the name of Jesus, there is no denying that!
There is power in the name of Jesus because He has all authority, and those working as His proxies work in that power. There is no power in the word "jesus" either spoken or written. If there were some mystical powers associated with the speaking of the syllables of the name that the Son of God went by during His incarnation, those syllables would not contain a "J" sound.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/15/2008 7:22:54 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
looks like it was said to me!
You're not going to let go of your preconceived notions are you, even though they're wrong?
See, what Peter said was NOT the performance of a baptism. These words that Peter spoke were not an instruction to speak words, but an instruction to take an action. Being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is not about what words are being spoken, but about the action being taken, being identified with the death of Jesus Christ, His authority as the Only Begotten of the Father, and being raised again to new life and being indwelt by the person of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
i do think that the name of Jesus should be said by the one who is baptizing, because there is power in the name of Jesus, there is no denying that!
There is power in the name of Jesus because He has all authority, and those working as His proxies work in that power. There is no power in the word "jesus" either spoken or written. If there were some mystical powers associated with the speaking of the syllables of the name that the Son of God went by during His incarnation, those syllables would not contain a "J" sound.
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
So you say there is power in the name, but why wouldn't you baptize in the name since there is power according to scripture, something you have not been giving me to prove that i am wrong! if anything i have given you scripture that backs me up with Jesus baptism, so i am waiting to see something back you up that i am wrong with my "preconceived notions"! i have been waiting for someone to back up that "in the name of Jesus" baptism biblically wrong for this entire thread, funny how no one has! I will still be waiting!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/16/2008 9:57:59 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 392
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Curly,
I have a question for you. Do you believe that someone is 'not baptized' if they said "in the name of the son" instead of "in the name of Jesus" during the ceremony?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 5/16/2008 5:32:22 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
So you say there is power in the name, but why wouldn't you baptize in the name since there is power according to scripture, something you have not been giving me to prove that i am wrong! if anything i have given you scripture that backs me up with Jesus baptism, so i am waiting to see something back you up that i am wrong with my "preconceived notions"! i have been waiting for someone to back up that "in the name of Jesus" baptism biblically wrong for this entire thread, funny how no one has! I will still be waiting!
First off, you're wrong that those who believe in proper Christian doctrine, otherwise known as trinitarian doctrine, don't baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. You're wrong because you're clinging to the idea that doing something "in the name" involves spoken words. When someone baptizes speaking "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit", they are baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ, because they are acting agents of Jesus Christ. In fact, "oneness" heretics who baptize saying "in the name of jesus" are actually taking the LORD's name in vain, and are not actually baptizing in His authority, because they are following doctrine that preaches an anti-Christ.
Furthermore, I'm interested in what you have to say on this verse:
Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
I'm curious, you say that "jesus" is the name of the Father. Then what is the name of the Lamb?
Furthermore, if it's not baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ to baptize "in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit," then why did Jesus say this:
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
Also, if "jesus" is the name of God, then did God lie to Moses in Exodus 3?
_____________________________
imaginary candy, purple dragon peppermint, thought condensed into little bricks of flavored sugar.
Now 30% nerdier!
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