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Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 9:29:34 AM
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bcredwagon
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Please don't take this the wrong way because I mean it with the upmost sincerity. It's just something that's been on my mind lately and I'd like to know others opinions on it.
I'm 45 and I gave my life to God when I was 9. I was raised in church and one Sunday I felt God calling me to make a decision for Him and to accept His Son Jesus as my savior. I knew I was a sinner and I knew I needed salvation. I walked the aisle, prayed with the pastor, and instantly knew I was a changed person. My baptism still ranks as one of the most awesome moments of my life. Even though I was only 9 at the time, I still remember what it felt like coming out of the water, cleansed from my sins. I got home that night and ran to the top of my driveway singing praises to God. It seems like only yesterday.
It wasn't that difficult for me to reach out to Jesus in faith and to put my trust in Him. The same is true for most of my friends who also gave their lives to Christ back then. Maybe we had it easier since we were raised in church.
I've noticed today, working with teenagers and young adults, that it's not easy for them to have faith in God and to trust Him for their salvation. They have a hard time trusting anyone, let along God. I wonder what has changed since I was a kid. Why was it easier for me to accept Christ than it is for people today? Is it because times are different and we've become so technologically advanced that there isn't room for God anymore? We only had 3 television channels when I was growing up and no video games to occupy our time. We played outside most days since computers and the internet weren't available to us yet. Has all of today's inventions made it harder for people to see God?
My heart goes out to kids today, especially College students, who don't believe in God. I never needed "proof" that God existed. I reached out in faith and God revealed Himself to me. He still reveals Himself today, but fewer and fewer people are reaching out in faith to call upon Him and be saved.
I'd like to know how you feel about all of this. If you don't believe in God, what is it about Christianity today that keeps you from having the faith needed to accept God's son, Jesus, as your savior?
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 9:41:12 AM
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earthless
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A lot of the fault lies with the local church - it is an extreme rarity to find a church that is rooted deeply in apologetics, in the teaching of why we believe what we do. In equipping believers and young people in the reasons why our faith is not a blind/dumb faith, but a faith rooted in evidence.
That coupled with how Western Christian do not read the Bible and are susceptible to believe anything that comes from a charming speaker behind a pulpit. Along with how many adult Christians have accepted abhorrent teachings as truth.
I remember giving a series of talks at a denomination's summer high school/college camp. The first night's session dealt with the basic question, "why do you believe what you claim to be believe?" Sort of an apologetics 101 intro warm-up session to see just where this crowd was coming from.
The conference area had around 5,000 youth and the first couple of rows had those that the churches deemed as their youth leaders, rising leaders, etc...
I asked a very simple question, "Why do you believe the Bible is God's Word for all of mankind?"
A couple of hands went up, most of them from these first few front rows of youth. I picked a girl that was 19 and a freshman at a secular college.
Her response? "I believe the Bible is God's Word because I believe it to be deep within my heart!"
Many in the room applauded, hooted and hollered.....
I literally had to contain myself not to blurt out my real reaction to her answer.
She cemented what I had already suspected would be the case.
My heart sunk.
It was a long, but fruitful, weekend.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 9:58:43 AM
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mvic
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I suspect many will disagree with me on this.
As we get more and more educated we become arrogant and feel superior to the previous generations who, by implication, knew less than us. Today's technologically advanced world has provided many benefits to mankind in the fields of medicine, science, communications etc ... etc ... etc ...
As a result, it is not surprising if mankind (including the young) feels it does not need the help, guidance or even the belief in a superior omnipotent God.
Over the years we have encouraged youngsters "to think for themselves". We've become lax in the teachings of Christianity in our schools. Christianity is mocked in literature, TV, the cinema etc ... Respect for someone else's beliefs and faith has been eroded.
Need I go on? As you put it: youngster have a hard time trusting anyone, let alone God. So why should they believe in Him, and be mocked by their peers and/or even their elders?
I'm sorry to paint such a sad picture. But I do have hope that things will work out for the best. God does exist and He can take the odd knock from our modern society.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 9:59:07 AM
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HisCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A lot of the fault lies with the local church - it is an extreme rarity to find a church that is rooted deeply in apologetics, in the teaching of why we believe what we do. In equipping believers and young people in the reasons why our faith is not a blind/dumb faith, but a faith rooted in evidence.
I agree. I'm 33 and struggled as a young adult and youth seeing that my church wasn't serious about God, knowing Him, and lining up with Him. Many aren't intellectually honest- saying what they feel instead of following what the Bible actually says and building faith on assumptions instead of the Black and White in the Bible. They teach that it is just fine to take things out of context. We have leadership that is leading us to this sort of "maturity."
And people see it. They aren't fooled by it. They may not know enough to offer and intellectual argument for what the truth is, but they can tell that we're not serious about the things of God. They can tell we're blown about by every wind or stubborn to cling to untruth. It's obvious that we aren't really following God but have built idols in His image!
Now, it's a cycle. You have a pastor prooftexting, so his congregation isn't maturing. They are teaching each other in their immaturity... sending out missionaries... bringing in unbelievers/new Christians... All of them are growing little and then beginning to use their spiritual gift. Someone begins to mature and wants to guide others to be more like Christ; they are run off as a troublemaker! Where does it end?
I'm really scared for the church. It breaks my heart to see this perpetuation of the perceived things of Christ without the focus truely on Him.
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 10:01:24 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bcredwagon
I'd like to know how you feel about all of this. If you don't believe in God, what is it about Christianity today that keeps you from having the faith needed to accept God's son, Jesus, as your savior?
very good question.
I do not think it is about "Christianity today" that keeps one for accepting Christ. We all have the Faith to do, but who have to make the choice.
I Think it is the World we live in that pulls harder at the youth to live a life without Christ rather than with Him. For the most part our childresn and ourselves also are all about 'Me". And when it comes to our Faith it is all about what can Faith do for me. (hence the popularity of Prosperity and permissive Churches; as in "Get saved -get rich" or "Get saved - you can still live a life of hell because it doens't matter).
You alluded to your youth of going to Church, Christian parents, you probably prayed over your meals, folks in your family probably gave credit (glory) to God when good things happened, etc. etc. That is something that has about disappeared from our society for the most part.
So the Faith is there within everyone of us, we just have to excerise that faith.
I have noticed over the years (45 years in the ministry) that the age at which folks turn to Christ has risen. The most initial interest that I see in young couples when they have their first child or two; at that point they are really drawn to the Faith.
On Children I think the resistance is just flat out rebellion against the parents, similliar to spiked hair and smoking grass, not cleaning their room, and early involvement with sex. Now that is the fault of the parents for not raising them at a young age according to the instructions of Scripture.
After 9-11 Church attendance country wide increased by 40%, but went back doen to prior levels when there wan not another attack. It might take a nuke in Times Square to truely show folks that we are not so high, mighty, and self-sufficient, to show us we really do need a realtionship with our Creator.
Thsnks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 10:05:27 AM
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bluestone
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When I was growing up, there were not a lot of alternatives to Christianity..other than atheism.
Also, we tended to trust what adults said in regards to Jesus and salvation.
Many young people today seem to be untrusting and cynical. (IMO)
They also have a lot of choices that we would never have considered.
_____________________________
If the witch at Endor were alive today, I wonder if she would be a road side fortune teller, or an
"extreme prophetess " in an emotion based signs-and-wonders church.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 10:32:07 AM
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TMeeks
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There are two sides to this coin and the other side needs to be addressed.
The church has ALLOWED the idea that today's culture is too intellectual to need God by worshipping at the alter of ignorance. All too often, television preachers and famous Christians make ridiculously ignorant claims that are ludicrous. And, if that weren't bad enough, we subtly steer our young people away from intellectual excellence for fear that they more they learn the less they will need God.
God made us to be intellectuals.... ALL of us. In fact, the Bible tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. If that is true than it is JUST the BEGINNING of wisdom and God wants us to go further in that wisdom.
It is NOT that children today are too intellectual. It's that WE have not been intellectual ENOUGH! The greatest schools of this country were founded by believers. And, we need to honor knowledge and wisdom, not denigrate it.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 10:47:47 AM
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bluestone
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good post, Tmeeks.
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If the witch at Endor were alive today, I wonder if she would be a road side fortune teller, or an
"extreme prophetess " in an emotion based signs-and-wonders church.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 10:57:14 AM
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Jhud
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Actually, I think the premise isn't necessarily true.
Folks here should read the 'Twilight of Atheism' by Alister McGrath; he chronicles the rise and peak of atheism, which really would have been in the sixties and seventies. Since then it has generally been in decline worldwide. And the third world is experiencing an evangelistic explosion which may be unprecedented in history.
I think in the West we see the decline in belief in large part because we are materially satisfied (not only satisfied I would say, engorged may be more apt) and so are able to maintain the pretense that belief in anything outside of our selfish desires is unnecessary.
Of course, this way of life is leading to the decline of the West more than it is unbelief. But this is as it has always been.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 11:38:56 AM
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Focusing
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I think there are a couple reasons:
First, that our lives are so busy all the time, that people don't take time to be still and know that He is God - they aren't quiet long enough to hear His voice.
Second, I think in our culture we have been taught not to trust. What is there to place our trust in? Parents divorce (or don't even marry, jump from mate to mate without any consideration of what it's doing to their children), the television news is filled with lies, friends deceive / make promises they don't keep.
Third, if parents don't take their children to church, or if we don't reach out to take others to church - or at least to witness to them - how will they ever have an opportunity to be introduced to God?
Without an introduction to God, and giving God the opportunity to speak to us, and not understanding what trust is (or having what could be trust ripped out from under our feet as we stand on it) ... it is very difficult to know God.
JMHO
_____________________________
Sam
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Psalm 18:2
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 2:31:14 PM
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atheistinpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bcredwagon
I'd like to know how you feel about all of this. If you don't believe in God, what is it about Christianity today that keeps you from having the faith needed to accept God's son, Jesus, as your savior?
Good post.
I'll take your question and split it into three, but before I begin, worth stating (I like to do this) that my post isn't intended as an attack on Christianity or faith - purely good-natured and the spirit of wholesome debate.
Do I want to accept Jesus as my savior?
Implicit in this question is the assumption that there is a divine power with the capacity to save us. I'm persuaded by Christopher Hitchens's 'anti-theist' argument that it'd not be a good thing if there was a never-ending invigilation of our lives - he likens it to a spiritual North Korea, with the only difference being that when you die, at least you leave North Korea. Because I don't want this assumption to be true (having already decided that, in my humble opinion, it probably isn't), I'd have to say that I don't want a divine power to have to save me.
What keeps me from having faith?
1. A lack of evidence for the claims made by religion; and 2. a suspicion of the idea of faith - this being a way of believing in something because of (or despite) a lack of evidence.
Why not Christianity?
More to the point, why not Christianity, or Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism... you get the idea. My rejection of Christianity is a necessary byproduct of rejecting religion.
But why not Christianity specifically? I used to be a Christian, but left the faith mainly for reasons outlined above - I simply didn't think it was true anymore. But lots of things back then bothered me about Christianity, so this is probably a good place to state them:
Globally, the stance of the Vatican on most scientific matters left me (and leaves me still) very frustrated. The current pope thought the punishment handed down to Galileo was 'rational'; the opposition to abortion and homosexuality (appreciate these aren't particular to Catholicism); most prominently, the teaching that condoms are sinful, which has done such huge damage in perpetuating the spread of HIV; worst of all - and this one leaves me genuinely depressed - the assertion by Cardinal Lopez Trujillo that condoms are manufactured so as to allow the transmission of the HIV virus - as brazen a violation of the Commandment on false testimony as any I can imagine.
Theologically, I never really liked the idea that we must spend our lives feeling guilty for being sinners, however imperfect we all are, and yet however good our deeds may be. And a religion that teaches that those who, through no fault of their own, never heard of Christ must suffer an eternity of damnation in hell is not one I can follow. (There was a recent thread on this.)
The above intends to cause offence to no one. I've ommitted some very positive views I have on Christianity, as they weren't particularly pertinent to the question being asked, but I wanted to state that before anyone gets the impression I'm on this board with nothing but contempt for the belief system being discussed - certainly not the case.
Thanks again for the post, enjoyed giving my response.
AiP
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 3:29:36 PM
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atheistinpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
good post, athiest. I think those are all (or mostly) things that many young people question.
we in Christianity have at times taken a "let's not discuss it, or we will be proven wrong" attitude, and that frustrates people.
Not that you will find discussion on any of those issues lacking here, by the way 
Thanks bluestone.
Actually, you've hit on another (minor) thing about religion that irks me - the repression of debate - though as far as I can tell, Christianity is streets ahead of other faiths in its willingness to engage in internal - and external - debate. That may be attributable to its prevalence among liberal democracies, but either way it's something to cherish.
Now with science, you'll hear scientists say "come on, let's discuss it, I may be proven wrong". I love that.
AiP
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 3:32:31 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
Now with science, you'll hear scientists say "come on, let's discuss it, I may be proven wrong". I love that.
That may be true in some circles, but, historically, going against established "science" can get one's career derailed.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 3:50:47 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
I've noticed today, working with teenagers and young adults, that it's not easy for them to have faith in God and to trust Him for their salvation. They have a hard time trusting anyone, let along God. I wonder what has changed since I was a kid. Why was it easier for me to accept Christ than it is for people today?
Over the last four decades, public education has become more consistently true to its origins as a technique devised by a Unitarian socialist to alienate the children of Christian parents from their faith. According to the Nehemiah Institute's research, covering hundreds of thousands of interviews over the course of decades, the decline in Christian faith among America's young people has been catastrophic over the last two decades. In 1980, the average Evangelical teenager has drifted from "the muddled middle" down into the solidly humanist point of view. If their minds have been enslaved, then their hearts are even harder to reach. If you put your kids in public school, the odds are 9 out of 10 that they'll walk away from Christianity soon after growing up.
The odds are even more dramatic, in the opposite direction, for home schooling families. 94% of home school teens embrace the faith of their parents, and intend to raise their children the same way.
Why do we have tracts about "missing heaven by 18 inches," that talk about enmity between "heart" and "mind?" Simple. Most of us have minds that have been carefully trained to regard God's Person, Son, and Word as irrelevant. Unnecessary. Dispensable.
We're in a bad place, and we have a ways to go to make it better. And some hard times ahead, I suspect. The England that could produce a Lewis and Tolkein became overwhelmingly secular within a single generation. I don't think we're going there in this country, though, since God is raising up a generation of millions of kids who were not handed over to agents of the State to be brainwashed into the unitarian perspective.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 3:53:42 PM
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bluestone
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I see your point Jimbo, and I think that going against established science means going against corporations , publishing companies, and academic institutions that have invested megabucks in certain theories.
It is a money thing. Not always, but sometimes.
_____________________________
If the witch at Endor were alive today, I wonder if she would be a road side fortune teller, or an
"extreme prophetess " in an emotion based signs-and-wonders church.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 4:12:33 PM
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doinkdom
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IMO, we have belittled the person of God - His character, His holiness, His magnitude to a point where we have to come believe that we, as fallen humans can actually out-think or out-smart God.
Also IMO, we as Christians have not been very good examples of walking out what the bible tells us. We have compartmentalized our lives.
Not only do we have church and politics seperated, we also have Christians and Christian communities separated. We go to church on Sunday and we do what we want without regards to what the bible teaches every other moment of the week. We take great offense if anyone inquires about our lives, etc. We live in fear that someone may actually know that we sin and call us on it.
The faith that I had was so easy to have or believe because I also had examples of it around me, reinforcing it, teaching it to me.
What have been those examples in the last 10-20 years? That might be a place to consider as well.
What the "church" needs to look at is what are the Mark Driscoll's and Rob Bell's of this world doing "right." Well, they're being honest, they're encouraging people to fumble, struggle and fall trying to walk out their sanctification. Are these leaders perfect? No...but what they're doing right is telling these kids to take action and to help one another walk it out.
Sounds more like the NT narratives than the chronicles of modern-day preaching to me.
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RE: Too Intellectual for God? - 4/23/2008 4:14:21 PM
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HisCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
It is NOT that children today are too intellectual. It's that WE have not been intellectual ENOUGH!
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
we in Christianity have at times taken a "let's not discuss it, or we will be proven wrong" attitude, and that frustrates people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
Most of us have minds that have been carefully trained to regard God's Person, Son, and Word as irrelevant. Unnecessary. Dispensable.
I think these three quotes sum up what the issue is. Christians as a whole are opting out of knowledge about Christ and exploring if what they have been taught is from God or is dogma of our own making. We are trained to ignore the things of God and prefer ignorance... And the vast majority of Christians don't see that they are caught up in this.
I don't think the younger generation is as trusting of their parents and their religion... because they have been shown repeatly that christianity makes no difference in the parents. Lots of kids recognize that it's a luke-warm religion in their parents and not the Holy Spirit. Others just lump it all in with Christianity and never recognize that their parents weren't following the teachings of Christ, but a preverted gospel- which is no gospel at all.
I enjoyed your post, too, athiest. You method of laying things out is very understandable and not offensive at all. You seemed worried that you came across as negative, but you were very polite and well-spoken. It was good to hear your perspective.
_____________________________
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My friends call me Zippy!
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The BIG Three of Atheistic "Intellectualism" - 4/23/2008 4:41:12 PM
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oldmethuselah
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atheistinpeace,
it is, of course, possible, that you simply missed my post when I addressed your assertions (ones posited again here), and since you did not reply, I suppose it unlikely that you read the followup books I had suggested.
As a former atheist, who was driven by logic and reason to abandon atheism, I think both the OP and yourself may be accepting false dichotomies between science and faith.
Now, in deference to yourself, I would be the first to admit there ARE seemingly anti-intellectual "christians" who, perhaps through fear, think we must block out reason, but, as many post-ers here have already mentioned, it is neither necessary nor sensible to do so.
Bearing in mind, it is the CHRISTIANS who say they follow the One who describes Himself as the TRUTH, so running away from truth is not really an option.
My atheist friends, on the other hand (and, atheistinpeace, if you observe some atheist chat sites you will see this played out) can abandon reason and divert into displays of:
a) Linguistic Poverty (thinking rough words will shore up weak arguments)
b) Ad Hominem Attacks (thinking that by destroying the speaker they destroy the argument), and,
c) Non-Sequitur deviation (when the going gets tough, bail out)
now, WHENEVER, Christians do ANY of the above they are in DIRECT CONTRAVENTION of what they stand for! (sadly some do)
However, to address, the original post...
It is PRECISELY because young people are not encouraged to "think for themselves" - unless it means the pap they are fed by overzealous "free thinkers", that they are unable to carry ANY argument to a logical conclusion or even realize that they are not doing so!
Even my Calculus students fall for the silliest fallacies (though, thankfully, I have been able to re-introduce some of them to the art of thinking)
It is NOT that the extra TECHNOLOGY has made it harder for people to accept Christianity because they are ABOVE it, rather, the extra technology has, in many respects, cause LESS THOUGHT in the average person!
To illustrate from my field:
In the 1960's...COMPUTERS were not as readily available to SOVIET mathematicians as they were to AMERICAN mathematicians...
the end result in that ten year period...approximate FOUR TIMES as many original math publications originated from the Soviets compared to the USA (who had oodles more money to spend on research)
The conclusion was that Yank mathematicians tended to "let the computer do it" and became less original in their thought.
< Message edited by oldmethuselah -- 4/23/2008 5:06:29 PM >
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RE: The BIG Three of Atheistic "Intellectualism" - 4/23/2008 5:22:31 PM
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atheistinpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah
atheistinpeace,
it is, of course, possible, that you simply missed my post when I addressed your assertions (ones posited again here), and since you did not reply, I suppose it unlikely that you read the followup books I had suggested.
Must have missed it... apologies. Was this recent?
quote:
My atheist friends, on the other hand (and, atheistinpeace, if you observe some atheist chat sites you will see this played out) can abandon reason and divert into displays of:
a) Linguistic Poverty (thinking rough words will shore up weak arguments)
b) Ad Hominem Attacks (thinking that by destroying the speaker they destroy the argument), and,
c) Non-Sequitur deviation (when the going gets tough, bail out)
now, WHENEVER, Christians do ANY of the above they are in DIRECT CONTRAVENTION of what they stand for! (sadly some do)
Agreed. The three fallacies you cite all make a mockery of discourse, and should never be tolerated. I've seen them used by atheists and Christians (to weight them, and according to my experience - (a) is more common among atheists; (b) is split 50-50; (c) I find more common among religious people - especially the simpler non-sequitur, if you're happy to count that - "we don't know how the Big Bang happened - therefore Christ is the only true saviour").
quote:
It is PRECISELY because young people are not encouraged to "think for themselves" - unless it means the pap they are fed by overzealous "free thinkers", that they are unable to carry ANY argument to a logical conclusion or even realize that they are not doing so!
I couldn't agree more regarding the need for everyone to think for themselves. I don't know whether you're suggesting that science is guilty of some form of indoctrination - certainly, we can't expect every generation to work out all scienctific knowledge for itself, though I would argue that good scientific teaching teaches not facts, but endows its students with the faculties required to apply the scientific method when assessing claims made by others. Personally, I think that this is where religion is surely more guilty than most other 'ideologies' - i.e. in discouraging thinking for one's self. I would guess that well over 90% of all believers in the world have adopted the faith of their parents - surely a sound example of a lack of free thought.
AiP
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RE: The BIG Three of Atheistic "Intellectualism" - 4/23/2008 9:03:41 PM
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bcredwagon
Posts: 12
Joined: 3/14/2008
Status: offline
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I want to thank everyone who has responded to my post. I have learned so much from all of you and I hope this thread stays open so others can share also. I especially want to thank atheistinpeace for posting. It is important for all of us to know where we each stand on the topic of religion and our belief systems. We should never condemn or ridicule someone for sharing their views and I hope and pray that I will always be open to what others have to say.
As I've read these posts today and reflected on what each one has said, I believe that the whole issue of Christianity and whether or not it is true and whether or not it is for me, all comes down to whether or not we want to know God. If we do, we have to first at least admit that there could possibly be a higher power in control. If a person can't get past this point, then they will never know if God exists or not. I truly believe that if a person truly wants to know if God exists or not, God will reveal Himself to them. He can't do this if the person isn't open to the possiblity He exists. Secondly, if you are open to the possiblity God exists, ask Him to reveal Himself to you. The bible says to seek God and you will find Him. I would encourage anyone who wants to know if God exists, to pray and ask God if He is real, then get a bible and read the book of John and meditate on what it says. I believe if you do this with an open heart, God will let you know He is r | | | |
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