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There where more than two creations - 4/24/2008 5:07:59 AM
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Bee777
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Hi all
I am no theologin or professor of anything but I was taught to read the Bible slowly and think after every sentence. To use the KJV and Strong's concordance along with others for reference. I was taught to take note of the rules in english, as in a period ( full stop = end of thought ) reading singular as one and plurals as many.
You learned theologins out there can read what I have come to understand and either elaborate or negate it.
KJV Genesis 27:God created man in his own image , in the image of God created he him; ( singular, one man ) semicolon; male and female created he THEM, ( please note the plural and mention of woman yet we have no Eve yet ) Now God gives THEM instruction 28: and God blessed THEM, and God said unto THEM, be fruitfull, and multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it...................
and so his instruction to them carries on until 31.
To form someone is to inform them as we form our children, right ?
So he takes the SINGULAR man and informs him as well as put HIM in the garden, not to replenish the earth as he told the THEM to do.
7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the singular man he had formed.
Now we see this formed man of God needed a companion.
18 The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
Now I do not think God is going to choose for a helper for this man from beasts and birds etc ( with some deeper studying you will see that birds of the air and beasts of the field often denotes nations as they show emotion ) Also how do you form ( inform ) beasts and birds.
Now we are introduced to Eve.
22 Then the Lord God MADE a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."
Now here's something else.
MADE- to frame, construct from parts or other substances, as in making a cake
CREATE- bringing something new into existence, so only God can create right.
So go back to genesis 26 ; and God said let us MAKE man.
This would answer your question as to other people on the planet at the time of the first creation.
But the THEM and Adam and Eve were something new brought into existence but these people were made, this proves to me that there was another civilization before us ?? Later he repented that he had MADE this man.
now go to genises 2:3 ...........................he rested from all his work which God created AND made.
There is still so much more evidence to all this if you dig deeper, knowing that trees also denote nations in some instances but I'll leave it here for now and maybe some one else can share their findings.
Blessings
< Message edited by Bee777 -- 4/24/2008 5:15:34 AM >
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/24/2008 10:29:25 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I am no theologin or professor of anything but I was taught to read the Bible slowly and think after every sentence. To use the KJV and Strong's concordance along with others for reference. I was taught to take note of the rules in english, as in a period ( full stop = end of thought ) reading singular as one and plurals as many.
You learned theologins out there can read what I have come to understand and either elaborate or negate it. You don't need to be a "learned theologian" to search articles on the fallacy of two Genesis accounts. I will be happy to set you straight by STARTING HERE.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 12:38:30 AM
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Bee777
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Thanks.
That was a good article.
But you are still missing the HIM and THEM scenario.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 3:13:22 AM
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ManimalX
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As far as "made" and "created": If you want to split hairs, God "created" the universe, along with all of the elements in it. He then "made" (like a recipe) man, by using these elements He "created" and adding His very breath of life, thus "creating" in His image. You already quoted it: God "made" man from the dust of the earth, something already "created".
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 4/25/2008 3:22:12 AM >
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 7:14:50 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But you are still missing the HIM and THEM scenario I am not missing anything, Bee. Him refers to Adam, them refers to the couple. Depending on the context, Moses used the pronouns as God inspired him to. There is no contradictory "scenario". Actually, if I remember correctly, the pronouns are hardly ever in the original text and have been added by translators for ease of reading and improved clarity.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 7:30:30 AM
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Bee777
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Hi DRMARK
Then why does God say to them go and replenish the earth etc when he had not yet made Eve yet and then turns to Adam and put's him in the Garden of Eden ??? there are two different instructions here. Also Adam and Eve only left the garden when they where expelled and sinned.
Do you hear what I'm saying ?
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 7:47:03 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Then why does God say to them go and replenish the earth etc when he had not yet made Eve yet and then turns to Adam and put's him in the Garden of Eden ??? there are two different instructions here. Umm, Bee, do I need to explain the birds and bees to you? It takes "them" to replenish (actually, that's an old English translation of the original Hebrew word meaning "fill").
Look, the Genesis account is written as a historical narrative. It does not always go - first this happened, second this happened, then this happened, and finally this happened. Moses used various literary devices to introduce, clarify, expand, summarize, and creatively present the factual history of origins. In Genesis 1, the record clearly states that God created specific things on specific days. In other parts of Genesis, the record reads more like a story of factual events which moves from one scene to another. One must use the context, grammatical constructions, literary style, and original intent of the human author to correctly interpret the Bible. This is called proper exegesis or hermeneutics.
quote:
there are two different instructions here. I don't see that - please specify chapter and verse.
quote:
Also Adam and Eve only left the garden when they where expelled and sinned. Yes, although they sinned before they were expelled. What's your point?
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 11:29:43 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bee777
Hi DRMARK
Then why does God say to them go and replenish the earth etc when he had not yet made Eve yet and then turns to Adam and put's him in the Garden of Eden ??? there are two different instructions here. Also Adam and Eve only left the garden when they where expelled and sinned.
Do you hear what I'm saying ?
No, he'll never hear what you are saying. He's giving you the Young Earth Creationist/Literalist interpretation, which assumes Genesis accounts of creation are scientific.
There are certainly a number of views on this portion of the Bible. Here is one article by a Rabbi on the age of the earth. LINK Take your time and check out different viewpoints and you can decide for yourself.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 11:46:47 AM
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drmark
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quote:
No, he'll never hear what you are saying. He's giving you the Young Earth Creationist/Literalist interpretation, which assumes Genesis accounts of creation are scientific. As usual, cow mistakes historically accurate for scientific. There is no way to scientifically prove the Genesis account because no one was around to observe the creation of the universe except Creator God. The real issue is whether we believe His authoritative, inerrant, factual account with which He divinely inspired Moses to write or whether we misread the plain meaning of the text in order to harmonize the Bible with some theory of fallible scientism. Which side of the issue do you take, Bee777?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 11:54:02 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
No, he'll never hear what you are saying. He's giving you the Young Earth Creationist/Literalist interpretation, which assumes Genesis accounts of creation are scientific. As usual, cow mistakes historically accurate for scientific. There is no way to scientifically prove the Genesis account because no one was around to observe the creation of the universe except Creator God. The real issue is whether we believe His authoritative, inerrant, factual account with which He divinely inspired Moses to write or whether we misread the plain meaning of the text in order to harmonize the Bible with some theory of fallible scientism. Which side of the issue do you take, Bee777?
Doc, I see progress. What happened to to claiming Genesis is an "eyewitness account"?
Bee, don't take my word for it or doc's word for it. Seek all the information you can and decide for yourself. God gave you a brain to use.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 11:57:33 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Doc, I see progress. What happened to to claiming Genesis is an "eyewitness account"? Genesis is the Eyewitness account, cow. Wish I could see some progress in you. 
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 12:30:03 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
No, he'll never hear what you are saying. He's giving you the Young Earth Creationist/Literalist interpretation, which assumes Genesis accounts of creation are scientific. As usual, cow mistakes historically accurate for scientific. There is no way to scientifically prove the Genesis account because no one was around to observe the creation of the universe except Creator God. The real issue is whether we believe His authoritative, inerrant, factual account with which He divinely inspired Moses to write or whether we misread the plain meaning of the text in order to harmonize the Bible with some theory of fallible scientism. Which side of the issue do you take, Bee777?
Somehow I dont have any faith that your interpretation enjoys the same inerrant and factual representation of events. Its nice to know that only science is fallible, and you are not.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/25/2008 9:53:26 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Its nice to know that only science is fallible, and you are not. Just to refresh your memory, drj, I did not write Genesis. God did through His chosen amanuensis. My infallibility is irrelevant to that fact!
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 3:39:31 AM
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Bee777
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I don't know what you mean when you say " eye witness account " ?
I know a day is likened unto a year and a year unto a thousand.
To me I don't care how long God took, 6 days or 6 thousand at this stage, all I know is he did. I do however believe the bible KJV is perfect and all our answers are in there and not everything is so hidden.
I'm trying to find these other people ? like...................
And what mark did Caine receive from God so that everyone would not slay him ? Gen 4;14
Who are these everyone ?
Genesis 2;17 And Caine knew his wife and bore Enoch.
Where did his wife come from ?
These are questions we must be able to answer from within the Bible.
DRMARK... the two instructions are 1; " he told the males and females ( no Eve yet ) to replenish the earth and then
2; he took the one lonely man and set him in the garden of Eden after he said go and replenish.
How can he " replenish " when he is stationary ( in a small area ) and alone ?
COW..... do you see what I'm saying ?
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 6:44:28 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
No, he'll never hear what you are saying. He's giving you the Young Earth Creationist/Literalist interpretation, which assumes Genesis accounts of creation are scientific. As usual, cow mistakes historically accurate for scientific. There is no way to scientifically prove the Genesis account because no one was around to observe the creation of the universe except Creator God. The real issue is whether we believe His authoritative, inerrant, factual account with which He divinely inspired Moses to write or whether we misread the plain meaning of the text in order to harmonize the Bible with some theory of fallible scientism. Which side of the issue do you take, Bee777?
Of course, we could believe God's authoritative, inerrant mythical account of creation.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 6:57:16 PM
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drmark
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quote:
These are questions we must be able to answer from within the Bible. If you are seriously searching for Biblically-sound answers to these kinds of questions, Bee777, then I strongly recommend that you start at www.answersingenesis.org and use their excellent search engine. Let me know if you cannot find something there.
quote:
DRMARK... the two instructions are 1; " he told the males and females ( no Eve yet ) to replenish the earth and then
2; he took the one lonely man and set him in the garden of Eden after he said go and replenish.
How can he " replenish " when he is stationary ( in a small area ) and alone ? No Bee, God told one male and one female which He had just created as described more fully in chapter 2, to "be fruitful and increase in number". Once more, as described in the article I linked in post #2, chapter 1 is an overview of all creation week while chapter two refers specifically to the creation of Adam and Eve on day 6. Some of the literary devices used by Moses do not relate to chronological events in precise order, others most certainly do.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 6:58:52 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Of course, we could believe God's authoritative, inerrant mythical account of creation. Of course, why should we believe the credibility of an evolutionist regarding the literary genre of Scripture?
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 7:20:51 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Of course, we could believe God's authoritative, inerrant mythical account of creation. Of course, why should we believe the credibility of an evolutionist regarding the literary genre of Scripture?
Actually, it was because I had already studied the literary genres of the bible that I had no problem with evolution when I later came across it. I already knew that God was a story-teller, so I found no conflict between biblical stories and scientific theories.
btw, literary genre is determined by the characteristics of the text, not by personal opinion.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 7:30:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
btw, literary genre is determined by the characteristics of the text, not by personal opinion. Quite right, so you should know that Genesis 1-11 is written in historical narrative prose and is NOT mythical genre, based on your previous studies. If you have some scholarly reference to support mythical "characteristics of the text", please share it.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 7:44:41 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
btw, literary genre is determined by the characteristics of the text, not by personal opinion. Quite right, so you should know that Genesis 1-11 is written in historical narrative prose and is NOT mythical genre, based on your previous studies. If you have some scholarly reference to support mythical "characteristics of the text", please share it.
In your opinion, what characteristics distinguish historical narrative prose from mythical narrative prose?
For an excellent study of the mythical elements of biblical literature, you can hardly do better than the work of the late Dr. Northrope Frye, author of The Great Code: a Study of the Bible and Literature. Frye was a noted expert on biblical literature who taught at Victoria College, University of Toronto, for several decades.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 10:19:01 PM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
For an excellent study of the mythical elements of biblical literature, you can hardly do better than the work of the late Dr. Northrope Frye, author of The Great Code: a Study of the Bible and Literature. Frye was a noted expert on biblical literature who taught at Victoria College, University of Toronto, for several decades.
Frye is very good with William Blake as well. His "Fearful Symmetry" is usually regarded as the corner stone study of Blake's poetry.
I haven't read The Great Code, but perhaps I should.
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 10:26:53 PM
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drmark
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quote:
In your opinion, what characteristics distinguish historical narrative prose from mythical narrative prose? I thought literary genre was determined by the characteristics of the text, not by personal opinion.
quote:
For an excellent study of the mythical elements of biblical literature, you can hardly do better than the work of the late Dr. Northrope Frye, author of The Great Code: a Study of the Bible and Literature. Would you be willing to highlight Prof. Frye's discussion of the literary genre of Genesis 1-11? I suspect I could do much better with my time than read some self-styled humanist who viewed the Bible as archetypal romanticism!
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 11:35:18 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In your opinion, what characteristics distinguish historical narrative prose from mythical narrative prose? I thought literary genre was determined by the characteristics of the text, not by personal opinion.
It is. But if you think Gen. 1-11 is historical narrative prose, rather than mythical narrative prose, you must have some criteria for deciding when narrative prose is historical rather than mythical. What criteria do you use to decide that a prose narrative is historical rather than mythical, legendary or plain old fiction?
For example, are there any textual criteria that determine whether the book of Job is history or fiction?
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RE: There where more than two creations - 4/26/2008 11:36:16 PM
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henny
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There's lots of different definitions of what constitutes "myth" so whether or not Genesis would be "myth" depends on who you will ask to a certain extent. But Generally the first sections of Genesis would be considered "myth," mainly because they concern a God or gods, tell an origin story, and pertain to a religious or symbolic system (or greater mythology). At a base level, that's usually all that the word "myth" connotes (and for the record, "myth" usually isn't regarded as a "genre." It's usually seen as acting on a more basic and fundamental level than that, concerning itself with basic religious beliefs. So to say that "myth" is a genre is a bit like saying that "religious belief" is a genre, which I don't think works. Some have made the case that basic types of genres grew out of basic types of myths, though).
Although if you want to get into stylistic elements, what is "mythic" is usually is seen as being more simplistic in structure (or at least in terms of the style of plot and characterization -I don't mean to suggest that mythology as a whole can't be complex, as it certainly can be) and conforming to basic patterns that repeat throughout many different cultures (i.e. Genesis can be read as another "promethean" type myth, for example -which doesn't mean that I'm suggesting that it was based on it, just that they employ similar narrative structures). Plus usually things tend to be more symbolic/archetypal in construction, so characters often will "stand in" for things as a whole or be reduced to some basic form, just as the actions of the characters will reverberate beyond the individuals to affect mankind as a whole on a grand universal scale (so for example, in Genesis, "Adam" was basically a general Hebrew word for "man." This doesn't necessarily mean that Adam wasn't also an "individual" if you want to read it that way, but it is clear that he was meant to represent much more beyond just himself, just as his actions have wide reaching effects on mankind in general, as oppossed to just affecting him as an individual). I think if you compare something like the first 3 chapters of Genesis with later stuff from other sections of the Old Testament, you do see huge differences in style. The latter sections of the Bible tend to have more character development at times, or be more historically oriented at other times, or legal oriented (to the point of being nothing other than recorded law), or turn into poetry (Pslams), or prophecy, etc, etc -in ways that really don't conform to a similar mythic style (so something like Leviticus or Psalms are not "mythic" really at all).
Although like I said before, to a large extent what constitutes myth depends entirely on who you ask (i.e. in the early 20th century myth analysis was huge amongst people like Levi-Strauss, Jung, etc -and the whole explosion of interest in myth, basic patterns/structures, and archetypes grew along side structuralism, so I think a certain amount of the ideas from that movement were incorporated into the definition of the word as an unintended side-effect. Which isn't necessarily a good thing, as structuralist anaylsis of myth often imposed an overly rigid uniformity, consistency, and structure which I suspect wasn't always there, but nevertheless "seemed" to be there by virtue of the application of their theories. This is way off topic, though).
But I don't think Christians need be offended when someone calls Genesis "myth." I know that the word has taken on connotations in recent years as being another word for "false" -but speaking in terms of literary classification, the word "myth" really says nothing about whether the stories themselves are true or false.
Reduced to its most basic definition the word usually just means "supernatural origin story." So given that, it's possible to see Genesis as both "myth" and 100% accurate, as the two really don't necessarily contradict one another (indeed, the word comes from the greek, to whom the word "myth" basically meant any story or plot, whether that story was true or untrue).
< Message edited by henny -- 4/27/2008 12:58:55 AM >
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