RE: Materialism to what limit? (Full Version)

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saraimay75 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 3:05:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

You can only sleep in one bed, drive one car, cannot carry 2 purses, live in one house.


Anything beyond that is just greed.


Well, then I must be greedy then because I have more the one purse. They all different (size, color, etc.) and I carry them at different time for different reasons. None of them costs even $100.

Some people (my parents included) have more then one house. But they rent out the other.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 7:41:31 AM)

quote:

So if a rich person has eight handbags that cost $20,000 each but they also do volunteer work and Tithe is it still greed???


It might be greed if they wanted nine handbags and they already had eight. I don't know if greed is the right word. Greedy people are never satisfied, always wanting more.

It's materialistic, though. Putting such value and importance on material items, no matter what they are or how much they cost, is materialistic.

It's not a sin to be rich, but riches can be a stumbling block, and that doesn't only apply to the rich. I've seen poor people stumble over wealth as much as rich people. The love of money is the root of all evil, and you don't have to actually have money to love it.



car2ner -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 8:07:49 AM)

quote:

The love of money is the root of all evil, and you don't have to actually have money to love it.


True, and sometimes it is after you have money that you realize, it's not everything you've fantasized about. Still, it is nice to have enough money to cover emergancies, help out a bit, enjoy a little frivolous spending, etc. But it cannot be a lifestyle that drives your decisions... you know, the old two masters speech. God or material wealth? Which will it be?

I personally will not ever understand why some people pay so much for a purse. Or shoes for that matter. And our home is not huge, great price... I've been praying for a family who will be blessed by this space. It is amazing how much plain old "stuff" we have collected over the years.



henny -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 4:12:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

You are right it is quite clear. But it does not say nor mean what you seem to be trying t make it say. You simply cannot take a verse out of the middle of a conversation and use it to prove a point. If you read the entire conversation you will see what they are talking about.

In your Mark 10:25 reference you have to look at what verse 21 and 22 say also.


21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

The man was so in love with his wealth he would not part with it even for eternal life.




Ok right here YOU say he was so in love,the verse says because he had great wealth. YOU add to it. How many wealthy people hear that verse and are glad about that? How many actually do it. Or even give 50% to the poor? Or maybe 25%? How about 10% of the income. An example: Bill Gates giving 10 million to the poor is not 10% of 59 Billion.




The irony of this is, of course, that it's much easier to not "love," desire, and obsess about money if you already have a lot of it. Only the wealthy can afford not to think about money. If you are barely making ends meet and lacking health insurance and basic necessities, you are going to have to think about money much more as you'll basically have no other choice.

As to the "camel through the eye of a needle" verse, even if it is meant as just a statement on not loving wealth too much, as oppossed to being a statement against the accumulation of too much wealth, the fact still remains that Jesus gave the command of giving up all but the bare essentials as a test for whether one loves their wealth too much. If no wealthy Christian would be willing to give up everything they own if it was asked of them, they'd already fail this test and "love" their material wealth too much. I'm sure most wealthy Christians would claim that they would be willing to do this if God asked it of them, but this is obviously incredibly easy to claim given that such a thing would probably never happen. When push comes to shove, I wonder how many could actually follow through.

As to the 65,000 dollar handbags, I really don't see how anyone could justify that to themselves. Perhaps one could if there wasn't so much suffering and poverty in the world already, but as long as these things still exist I think there's no excuse. It doesn't build character, it has no practical function that a lesser hand bag couldn't fulfill, it isn't spiritually or intelectually fullfilling in any way -so in the end a 65,000 dollar handbag is really nothing more than an ornament.

My sister is really into handbags. She spent 8,000 on a LV handbag and wallet. When my mom heard she cried because she thought it was such a waste.

Don't worry, though, when I see her I try to guilt her as much as possible about it in my own self-righteous liberal way. [:D]



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 5:05:06 PM)

quote:

As to the 65,000 dollar handbags, I really don't see how anyone could justify that to themselves. Perhaps one could if there wasn't so much suffering and poverty in the world already, but as long as these things still exist I think there's no excuse.


Therein lies the crux of it all. How can ANYONE look at all the suffering in the world and justify buying a bunch of junk. Tithes are to be paid, but after that we are to help and plead for the poor.

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Pro 18:11 The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.


It is very plain about riches here on earth. And the poor. They are too numerous to list.


One $20,000 purse is too much. I carry a purse, but what is the difference between a 20 dollar purse and 20,000 one. Whole families getting food.


Is buying a $20,000 purse being a good stewart of your money? I don't think so, but I have been wrong alot.

I used to look at wealth and think they must be smart, wise, blessed people. What am I doing wrong? But I read the Bible and learned different.

Am I Tracy guilty of buying junk, yes. But after a while you go from crawling baby, to walking baby to knowing better than to justify it at all.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 10:46:09 PM)

quote:

How can ANYONE look at all the suffering in the world and justify buying a bunch of junk.


How can anyone look at all the suffering in the world and blame rich people for it? Poverty does not exist because wealth does. That is marxist.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/27/2008 10:56:15 PM)

quote:

How can anyone look at all the suffering in the world and blame rich people for it? Poverty does not exist because wealth does. That is marxist.


Well anyone that can ask that has not studied history or the Bible. Just think if the rich people helped the poor.



lightshineon -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 12:16:45 AM)

Yes, I do not want diamonds and such. My Auntie who died left me real diamonds, and my engagment ring. I like my wal-mart coustume jewlery. I feel quilty if I buy someting for myself. I do it though (LOL) on sale. Designer things do not impress me.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

How can anyone look at all the suffering in the world and blame rich people for it? Poverty does not exist because wealth does. That is marxist.


Well anyone that can ask that has not studied history or the Bible. Just think if the rich people helped the poor.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 2:07:30 AM)

quote:

Yes, I do not want diamonds and such.



Light
Stop right there. you said you don't WANT it. That's the crux of it all to me, why would a Christian want a shiny rock that can cost millions. I have my mothers ring, I wear it. but get up off 10,000 dollars for one.

It's gotta come home and babysit for me, I pay that much for it.



henny -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 2:23:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
How can anyone look at all the suffering in the world and blame rich people for it? Poverty does not exist because wealth does. That is marxist.



I don't think that the wealthy in general can be blamed for poverty, but poverty is a necessary side effect of wealth -especially when the most money is controlled by the least amount of people. Immense wealth is usually only possible if there are people willing to work at or below minimum wage. Regardless of if everyone works equally hard, not everyone can be wealthy. There's really nothing "marxist" about acknowledging that, it's just how capitalism tends to work.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 3:14:58 AM)

quote:

I don't think that the wealthy in general can be blamed for poverty, but poverty is a necessary side effect of wealth -especially when the most money is controlled by the least amount of people.


marxism

quote:

it's just how capitalism tends to work.


Capitalism proves that those who start out poor can improve themselves. Many of the rich people in this world started out poor and many who started out rich lost it. Its about ability...and certainly blessings.

My having money does not make anyone else poor. Having money does not mean you stole it from the everyday blue collar guy. That...is quintisential marxism.

Capitolism means you can move from job to job if you so choose. Its not slavery. If you want a better job, go get one, don't blame someone else.

quote:

Well anyone that can ask that has not studied history or the Bible.


So Job, who was accredited righteousness few of us could ever attain, Abraham, the Father of the jewish nation and many more were just rich people stealing monies from the poor?

??

The bible says its harder spiritually, to be rich. It does not say it is evil to be rich. Malachi 3:10 would be a curse then.

Money is a tool and what you do with that tool defines you.



car2ner -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 6:18:27 AM)

quote:

Money is a tool and what you do with that tool defines you.


Thank you... and there are plenty of people lining up to tell you how to use that tool. Don't even get me started on government programs that I don't agree with and yet pay for, etc.
Especially since that would take us off topic.

Everyone has to be confident in their own mind what God would have them do with their resources. M'love and I saved took a cruise for our honeymoon. It was not over the top expensive but I suppose that money could have gone to charity. In the meantime, that would be less money to the cruiselines and less money to pay their employees, less money to the Mexican tradesmen relying on tourist dollars, etc. So there is no clear line to be drawn in the sand.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 6:43:08 AM)

The best example of this evil rich people mentality is what happened to the yaucht industry in america. Obviously rich people buy yachts so to get more money from them, there was a high tax placed on yachts.

What did it do? It killed the american yacht industry. Put people out of work. Resulted in tax losses.

Perfect example of socialism and the class envy mentality.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 7:56:37 AM)

We were discussing this subject yesterday in Sunday School at church. This was the passage we studied from:

(2 Corinthians 8:1-15) We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints-- and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. Accordingly, we urged Titus that as he had started, so he should complete among you this act of grace. But as you excel in everything--in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you--see that you excel in this act of grace also. I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it. So now finish doing it as well, so that your readiness in desiring it may be matched by your completing it out of what you have. For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack."

Paul was telling them about the generosity of the Macedonians, who gave even though they were needy themselves, in order to stir the Corinthians to give as well. He wanted to test the sincerity of their love by giving them an example of selfless giving to compare themselves to.

Paul told them they didn't need to give what they didn't have, only what they had. They weren't to try and borrow money to try and make themselves look good, or go without necessities, but it was okay if they sacrificed a little in order to be able to give generously.

He said that those who had should share with those that did not, and that later on, if they were in need, others would come to their aid.

Someone earlier mentioned that as long as she pays her tithes, there's nothing wrong with buying a $20,000 handbag. I thought of this passage.

Mar 12:41:44 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, "Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."

The rich people in this passage gave a lot of money. However, Jesus didn't seem to think they had done very much. After all, they hadn't sacrificed anything to give. They had lots leftover. The widow was the one who was commended for her giving, because she gave sacrificially.

There's nothing wrong in having nice things, and in having money. However, we need to hold the things in this world loosely, and remember they are not our own. We are only stewards of them. God is the owner. If He, at any time, instructs us to give up something, we must be able to do that willingly and freely. If we feel a pang in our heart at those instructions, and think, "That's MINE!" then it has more of a hold on us than we'd like to admit.



Memaw. -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 8:44:48 AM)

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted.

1 Timothy 2
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3
3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



kernsfamily -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 9:34:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

I do not mean to be starting an argument but if you are going to quote scripture you need to know the meaning behind the scripture. Why will it be harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Is it because he is rich? No. It is because of his love of his riches. Money is not the root of all evil it is the love of money that gets people.


Sounds pretty upfront to me. I don't think I'm misinterepting. What's confusing about it.

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


Here's some more verses for the rich.

Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.


Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich He hath sent empty away.


Loving money can be a poor or rich person. That verse can be misinterepted.

But I think it is clear about rich people.


So, then how "blessed" by God do i have to be before I am "unable" to enter the kingdom of that very God who blessed me with what is keeping me out?

Sounds very contradictory.

The bible clearly states that Iam to work hard, be the best worker, and excel in my work....I don't know about you, but that's a recipe for success in business...

Am I not to do those things, now? Am I to turn down higher and higher pay? At what point do I say "NO THANKS"?



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 11:26:45 AM)

quote:

The bible says its harder spiritually, to be rich. It does not say it is evil to be rich. Malachi 3:10 would be a curse then.


The Bible says

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

That look impossible to me, maybe you can fit a camel thru there.

quote:

If He, at any time, instructs us to give up something, we must be able to do that willingly and freely.


We'll with 100's of verses saying give to the poor, I would argue that He has told us already. How many verses do we need to be convinced?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

quote:

1 Timothy 2
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3
3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;


Ok I'm trying to understand what this has to do with the rich and giving to the poor?

quote:

So, then how "blessed" by God do i have to be before I am "unable" to enter the kingdom of that very God who blessed me with what is keeping me out?


It says the rich.

Are you rich? I doubt if anyone on here is what I consider the rich.

This is crazy, i have never seen so many people defending the Rich, when the Bible clearly says defend the poor.

Why?

There is nothing wrong with having nice things, but having 8 $20,000 purses is wrong.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 11:31:07 AM)

quote:

My having money does not make anyone else poor. Having money does not mean you stole it from the everyday blue collar guy.


but if you gave some of your money to them like the Bible says would they still be poor. 100 US dollars is 130,000 in Tanzania money, I don't think they would still be considered poor, if you sent 100 dollars.

I would ask where does your money come from , alot of companies, stole their money, stole resources to enrich themselves.



kernsfamily -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 11:37:02 AM)

quote:

quote:
So, then how "blessed" by God do i have to be before I am "unable" to enter the kingdom of that very God who blessed me with what is keeping me out?


quote:


It says the rich.

Are you rich? I doubt if anyone on here is what I consider the rich.

This is crazy, i have never seen so many people defending the Rich, when the Bible clearly says defend the poor.

Why?

There is nothing wrong with having nice things, but having 8 $20,000 purses is wrong.


So, God cannot bless someone financially?

Defending the rich? Sure...you know why? Just as soon I finish condemning "the rich", Iam going to wake up one day and realize that became "rich"....and, be blessed by God for following his lead in doing what his will is for my life...
you've been around far too many politicians who cram that "class warfare" junk down people's throats.....(even though, the politicans them selves are rich...go figure!.....what hypocrites!)

just because you are "poor" in America, is NO determination that you are going to STAY that way....not at all....

What you consider "rich" someone else might consider "middle income"......
Some people (those in my "old neighborhood") think I am very rich & wealthy.....though, most people, including myself, consider me to be "middle income"....
My father, who worked in an auto factory for over 30 years, was "accused" of being "rich" by his family for as long as I can remember (he grew up in poverty in Appalachia)....and, yet, we were, in reality, very lower middle class.

"Rich" is all "relative"....



kernsfamily -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 11:38:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I would ask where does your money come from , alot of companies, stole their money, stole resources to enrich themselves.



you have no clue how business works, in the "real world", do you?



doinkdom -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 11:42:08 AM)

As for me, my defense for the so-called rich is when you take the whole of scripture and deduce it to one or two rules for living.

It is not being rich or having money.

It is the love of money and the love of being rich that we find contrary to what is in the bible. The rich man was more in love with his riches than he was with the Lord. That's the issue.

I do know a couple of "rich" people...one, in particular that gives massive amounts of money to many charities and to many individuals. He also visits other countries and lends aid to them. He does have a nice home and has made wise investments into Christian-based companies.

The amount of his giving exceeds 10%, but even if it didn't...it is still given cheerfully and with love. I don't care how much is given by or from anyone - it must be done with cheerfulness and not of duty - bible is clear on that, too.

I've also got friends who make minimal amounts of money, but hold onto it with greed. Their's is a matter of not trusting God and His provision. They would not donate to anyone or give to any charity simply because they believe "they" are the best charity.

It is a matter of our hearts and what we worship.



kernsfamily -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 11:54:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

As for me, my defense for the so-called rich is when you take the whole of scripture and deduce it to one or two rules for living.

It is not being rich or having money.

It is the love of money and the love of being rich that we find contrary to what is in the bible. The rich man was more in love with his riches than he was with the Lord. That's the issue.

I do know a couple of "rich" people...one, in particular that gives massive amounts of money to many charities and to many individuals. He also visits other countries and lends aid to them. He does have a nice home and has made wise investments into Christian-based companies.

The amount of his giving exceeds 10%, but even if it didn't...it is still given cheerfully and with love. I don't care how much is given by or from anyone - it must be done with cheerfulness and not of duty - bible is clear on that, too.

I've also got friends who make minimal amounts of money, but hold onto it with greed. Their's is a matter of not trusting God and His provision. They would not donate to anyone or give to any charity simply because they believe "they" are the best charity.

It is a matter of our hearts and what we worship.


Very good post....

Along those very same lines....what, then, do you tell a Fortune 500 company CEO who serves as an USHER at our church.....or, spends an hour and a half of his Sunday morning teaching 2-year olds in their sunday school classes? (not just the well-known CEOs, but other business leaders, as well?) Condemn all of them?

It's what's in people's HEARTS...not simply the dollar amounts in their accounts....(or for what car they drive...or anything "material")....



Memaw. -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 12:13:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls




quote:

1 Timothy 2
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3
3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;


Ok I'm trying to understand what this has to do with the rich and giving to the poor?


This has to do with those in the church who wear thousand dollar dresses and carry bags that could feed a nation.

It is saying, don't wear things that will be a distraction to those who are there to worship which is what the OP is about.

quote:

I am perplexed by certain people in my church because of their obsession with branded handbags. I know a few ladies in church who have perhaps 20 odd Chanel, LV and what not handbags. These bags cost thousands of dollars. The most extreme I have come across is one lady who has 8 $20,000 bags of a certain brand. The 8 bags are the same style, but in different colours. It kinda reminds me of Imelda Marcos and her shoe obsession! These ladies are normal working ladies.

Why do I feel perplexed? I wonder if this is Christian. I am trying hard not to judge them but I think twice when I want to bring a friend to church with me. Cos mainly I don't want my friends to think Christians are materialistic. This behaviour has made some of us, especially stay-home mums with one income wonder if we are missing out on something, and some less well-to-do people wonder if they are just out of the group. Also, as you would expect, conversations are often about bags, cars, etc. And recently, one of the ladies (who is married but chose not have children) posted on her blog (which was sent to lots of us in church) that she has a new baby in her family....which is of course her latest branded bag. Included were multiple pix of her new bag in different angels.

I dunno. I feel so confused. I don't know what to do about this situation. If I tell my leaders how I feel about this growing materialistic trend, I wonder what they will say. I guess I'm posting this forum cos I wanna know what other Christians think of this and what they think I can do. I have been feeling really heavy in my heart about this matter.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 12:26:50 PM)

quote:

So, God cannot bless someone financially?



Where did I say that? Why do people keep twisting it. Help the poor, I did'nt say the rich have to squeeze thru a needles eye, Jesus did.

quote:

Defending the rich? Sure...you know why? Just as soon I finish condemning "the rich",


The Bible says defend the poor-

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

What is your reason for not pleading the cause of the poor, is maybe a better question.


Pro 17:5 Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.




quote:

you've been around far too many politicians who cram that "class warfare" junk down people's throats.....(even though, the politicans them selves are rich...go figure!.....what hypocrites!)


Where did you get this from, I have not been around or even pay attention to most pol. I have only voted 2 times in my life. One for president and one for a local guy.



quote:

just because you are "poor" in America, is NO determination that you are going to STAY that way....not at all....


Im certainly not even in the poor column in US. I woreked most of my life, sometimes 2 jobs. My income now is not poor at all, I have never said that.
quote:


What you consider "rich" someone else might consider "middle income"......
Some people (those in my "old neighborhood") think I am very rich & wealthy.....though, most people, including myself, consider me to be "middle income"....
My father, who worked in an auto factory for over 30 years, was "accused" of being "rich" by his family for as long as I can remember (he grew up in poverty in Appalachia)....and, yet, we were, in reality, very lower middle class.

"Rich" is all "relative"....


no, I'm talking about 1% that controls most of the wealth in this country.

SOME Rich to me is : you jumping a private jet, going from company to company, if you say don't sell medicine or oil, it don't get sold. you have vast real estate holdingss, stock in numerous companies, and you are rarely featured in Forbes. The average american does not know your name.



kernsfamily -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (4/28/2008 1:33:47 PM)

quote:

no, I'm talking about 1% that controls most of the wealth in this country.


no one "controls" the wealth....there is no "rule" that says just because that 1% is very wealthy, that no one else can be....or that they "control" who is going to be wealthy, or by even how much.....

this is the united states...not the soviet union....



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