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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 9:44:28 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Nice use of sarcasm.
You use words like "Reverends" and Poverty Pimps, and yet I am the sarcastic one?
quote:
the kid that was shot had a long rap sheet, priors, never went to school, and was out gambling at 2:00 AM, on a school night - but I guess that is OK for a 17 year old to do.
So let's shoot 'em. Any African American with a rap sheet-- let's just gun 'em down in the streets. Having a rap sheet sheet while black should be a capital offense, anyway.
quote:
The guy was a felon with priors related to gun crimes and drug dealing
And black-- don't forget black.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 9:48:35 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
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quote:
ORIGINAL: redeemedsaint
Justice was served.
And the best part is, there were "no losers" in this case:
quote:
Patrick Lynch, president of the New York Police Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said "there's no winners; there's no losers" in the case.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 10:26:26 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4591
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Nice use of sarcasm.
You use words like "Reverends" and Poverty Pimps, and yet I am the sarcastic one?
quote:
the kid that was shot had a long rap sheet, priors, never went to school, and was out gambling at 2:00 AM, on a school night - but I guess that is OK for a 17 year old to do.
So let's shoot 'em. Any African American with a rap sheet-- let's just gun 'em down in the streets. Having a rap sheet sheet while black should be a capital offense, anyway.
quote:
The guy was a felon with priors related to gun crimes and drug dealing
And black-- don't forget black.
So are you advocating giving a pass to blacks because they are black?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 10:36:14 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
And black-- don't forget black.
So were most of the police officers being charged.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 10:36:34 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3347
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This is not an racial issue, Two of the detectives are black, one Italian, I believe. How can this be racial? Tragic yes, but racial no.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 11:41:08 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
You use words like "Reverends" and Poverty Pimps, and yet I am the sarcastic one? I was actually complimenting you. I am as cynical and sarcastic as they come.
As for the usage of those terms, they are more than apt and factual. Many of those that come out to mug the media coverage are as far from being "reverends" (i.e. Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton) as Mormons are from being Bible based Christians.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
So let's shoot 'em. Any African American with a rap sheet-- let's just gun 'em down in the streets. Having a rap sheet sheet while black should be a capital offense, anyway.
Who mentioned anything about someone being black? I don't care what amount of melanin an individual has - if you are active in a gang, in the drug business, you are not going to be approached the same as a 60 year old woman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
And black-- don't forget black.
This really shows what your problem is - you're making it a race issue when it is not.
< Message edited by earthless -- 4/26/2008 11:47:28 AM >
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 12:17:27 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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They did refuse arrest - they refused to obey lawful commands given to them repeatedly. And "move out of the way"? Have you ever had a van aiming for you to kill you? That is use of a deadly weapon and enough cause to do whatever is needed to stop the engaging mortal threat. Be it one bullet or 100.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 1:27:20 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So are you advocating giving a pass to blacks because they are black?
Refraining from gunning them down in the streets is a "pass?"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So were most of the police officers being charged.
I'll ask you the same thing that rcjames asked: are you advocating giving the cops a "pass" because most of them were also black?
Racism's crowning achievement is turning the oppressed on each other. This also happened in the Nazi concentration camps.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
This is not an racial issue, Two of the detectives are black, one Italian, I believe. How can this be racial? Tragic yes, but racial no.
I will agree in so far as race is not the only factor. The race factor is more evident in earthless's comments. Any chance that earthless would have sung a different tune if these same cops had gunned down a young white man?
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 1:35:21 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I was actually complimenting you. I am as cynical and sarcastic as they come.
Thank you. However, sarcasm isn't usually my style.
quote:
As for the usage of those terms, they are more than apt and factual. Many of those that come out to mug the media coverage are as far from being "reverends" (i.e. Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton) as Mormons are from being Bible based Christians.
I could say the very same thing about many non-black televangelists. What does that prove?
And I suppose that Poverty Pimps is a completely neutral and technically correct term?
quote:
Who mentioned anything about someone being black?
The article did.
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I don't care what amount of melanin an individual has - if you are active in a gang, in the drug business, you are not going to be approached the same as a 60 year old woman.
What if the 60 year old woman is active in a gang and in the drug business?
But seriously, gunning a man down in the streets and then justifying it after the fact by saying, "Well, looky there-- he had a record, so it's okay" sounds mighty hypocritical especially considering the victim's color.
quote:
This really shows what your problem is - you're making it a race issue when it is not.
Actually, I am challenging that you have a race issue. You say that the vicitm's color makes no difference, but let's be honest. Had the victim been white, would your attitude have been any different at all?
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 1:37:51 PM
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vixir
Posts: 132
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
They did refuse arrest - they refused to obey lawful commands given to them repeatedly.
I must have missed that part. Where in the article did it say this?
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 2:29:14 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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These detectives were broken, one was in tears, saying he was sorry to the family. I think it was a tragic accident, that was for some reason, who knows who fault it was maybe both parties. These young men were acting in a way that made, the officers threatened, some action, or past dealings with these kids, I do not know. The policeman seem to have over reacted, to the situation, I do not think they just wanted to kill somebody. They have to live with taking this very young mans life away, and his families great loss, and his future bride. Though he was a supposed thug he mattered to someone. Tragic, is what I think. Now I think eartless is in law enforcement, if I am right? I was in Juvenile Justice, and it was dangerous, two kids were going to cut my throat, before it was found out, by another worker. I thought these kids were somewhat harmless, but they had a sophisticated plan to do the act. Sometimes, there can be threats, that cannot be easily percieved. So those there only know what was felt, at the time. It is just tragic sums it up for everyone.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/26/2008 2:35:50 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 3:21:10 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
"One woman shouted at a black police officer, "How can you be proud to wear that uniform? Stand down! Stop working for the masters!""
And some people wonder why their gang banger kids don't respect the police, teachers, much less any authority figure.... and these are the same people crying on the news about their "honor roll student" getting shot at 2:00 AM, on a school night, while he was shooting dice.
The reason why people don't respect the police is that the police don't respect people.
Here in NYC, they ask us to submit to random searches on subways, in traffic, and occasionally even on sidewalks. They carry automatic weapons in times square and occasionally arrest people who accidentally bring pocketknives into the city. If that's not enough, they randomly shoot people.
Respect is something that must be earned. A police state usually has difficulty earning respect.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 3:24:17 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Well in the Christian world view we respect authority. These people have a dangerous job, protecting you. How can you say these things?
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
"One woman shouted at a black police officer, "How can you be proud to wear that uniform? Stand down! Stop working for the masters!""
And some people wonder why their gang banger kids don't respect the police, teachers, much less any authority figure.... and these are the same people crying on the news about their "honor roll student" getting shot at 2:00 AM, on a school night, while he was shooting dice.
The reason why people don't respect the police is that the police don't respect people.
Here in NYC, they ask us to submit to random searches on subways, in traffic, and occasionally even on sidewalks. They carry automatic weapons in times square and occasionally arrest people who accidentally bring pocketknives into the city. If that's not enough, they randomly shoot people.
Respect is something that must be earned. A police state usually has difficulty earning respect.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 3:31:16 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well in the Christian world view we respect authority. These people have a dangerous job, protecting you. How can you say these things?
Because NYC really needs to send some of its cops to Chicago, Memphis, or other cities that need them more.
NYC has one of the lowest per-capita murder rates in the country and one of the highest per-capita unconstitutional search rates in the country. Personally, I would rather be in charge of protecting myself than be searched every time I walk down the street in Manhattan.
I'm sorry, but someone who shoots an unarmed person either:
1.) Isn't acting in the name of the government.
2.) If he is acting in the name of the government, he isn't acting on behalf of a government that really has a divine right to govern. This government does not carry any God-given authority.
Such a person should go to jail, like any other person who shoots someone else.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 3:34:24 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3347
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did you read what i said in earlier post?
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well in the Christian world view we respect authority. These people have a dangerous job, protecting you. How can you say these things?
Because NYC really needs to send some of its cops to Chicago, Memphis, or other cities that need them more.
NYC has one of the lowest per-capita murder rates in the country and one of the highest per-capita unconstitutional search rates in the country. Personally, I would rather be in charge of protecting myself than be searched every time I walk down the street in Manhattan.
I'm sorry, but someone who shoots an unarmed person either:
1.) Isn't acting in the name of the government.
2.) If he is acting in the name of the government, he isn't acting on behalf of a government that really has a divine right to govern. This government does not carry any God-given authority.
Such a person should go to jail, like any other person who shoots someone else.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 3:47:54 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
I think the question really has to do with using lethal force; when an officer fires his gun, he intends to kill you,
Not so. Cops can shoot to neutralize (e.g. a leg shot, Tazer) a suspect, but only if his/her personal safety is threatened, or the safety of the public.
quote:
so I am not sure I understand the 'excessive' part of this - I mean once you're dead, what number of bullets is excessive?
Even if the suspect was brandishing a gun, how many rounds does it take to stop one man? Fifty is ridiculous.
< Message edited by todd_t -- 4/26/2008 3:56:20 PM >
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 3:50:05 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
did you read what i said in earlier post?
Yes.
1.) They don't have a very dangerous job in New York. We have one of the lowest per-capita crime rates out of any urban area in the world.
2.) We are to submit ourselves to every authority, but when one authority overrules another, we are to submit to that authority. The constitution tells us that roughly one third of what NYC police do is unconstitutional in one form or another. (The other two thirds are handing out parking tickets and intimidating the homeless.)
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 5:03:54 PM
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rabstark
Posts: 165
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think the question really has to do with using lethal force; when an officer fires his gun, he intends to kill you,
Not so. Cops can shoot to neutralize (e.g. a leg shot, Tazer) a suspect, but only if his/her personal safety is threatened, or the safety of the public.
quote:
so I am not sure I understand the 'excessive' part of this - I mean once you're dead, what number of bullets is excessive?
Even if the suspect was brandishing a gun, how many rounds does it take to stop one man? Fifty is ridiculous.
Actually, Jack is absolutely right. Police are not trained to "shoot to neutralize". Very few people are capable enough to be able do something like that, even with training, and even assuming the best possible circumstances (ie. broad daylight, stationary target, close range, etc.) Police are trained to aim for the center of mass... which means the torso... and fire in 2-3 round groups. If you are hit in the chest with 2-3 9mm or .40 rounds you will almost certainly be dead, and as Jack said, that is the idea. If a situation comes to the point where the officer feels that he/she must pull the trigger, their intent is to kill the suspect, because death is the only sure way (unless someone has invented the Phaser with a stun setting, and neglected to tell anyone) to insure that the suspect is no longer a threat
. As to the Tazer, not all police departments use them (not sure about the NYPD), and even if you have one, it's range is EXTREMELY limited, and is totally useless if the perps are in a vehicle, which they were in the case being discussed.
In the case of the officer who fired two magazines in this case, he was a responder whose vehicle was rammed by the suspects' vehicle. As has been pointed out, a motor vehicle is considered a deadly weapon when it is being used as one, which it was. When an officer is under attack, he keeps firing until he's sure the attack has stopped... he doesn't stand there counting the number of rounds he's fired and think, "Hmmm, I wonder if I've fired too many?"
< Message edited by rabstark -- 4/26/2008 5:30:19 PM >
_____________________________
Romans 10:1-2
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 5:57:26 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rabstark
Actually, Jack is absolutely right. Police are not trained to "shoot to neutralize".
Now let's ask the hard questions: why did it come to gunfire at all? What made the victim panic behind the wheel?
How cool would you remain if a group of men drew guns on you without identifying themselves as undercover police officers?
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 6:01:14 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Well that can be seen on both sides, what do the police know when seeing panic behind a car. I am sure fear is what happened on both counts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: rabstark
Actually, Jack is absolutely right. Police are not trained to "shoot to neutralize".
Now let's ask the hard questions: why did it come to gunfire at all? What made the victim panic behind the wheel?
How cool would you remain if a group of men drew guns on you without identifying themselves as undercover police officers?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/26/2008 6:20:11 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4591
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
I'll ask you the same thing that rcjames asked: are you advocating giving the cops a "pass" because most of them were also black?
If someone is disobeying the orders of police and trying to run down the law enforcement officers, shooting is warrented, Lordy an RPG would have been warrented.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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