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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 9:55:23 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
They initiated it when they ignored/disobeyed lawful commands.
Or didn't realize that they were being addressed by cops?
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And then initiated it even more when they used a deadly weapon.
Hyperbole. It's okay to say "car." That's what it was.
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Are you not concerned about the other non-black men that were shot along with him?
Did they die with 50 bullets in them the day before their wedding? Is everyone applauding their death?
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Or are you, again, just pushing the black angle and nothing else.
I'm not pushing anything. I am evaluating folk's reaction.
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Even when two of the officers are black.
We've covered this. Or did you forget already?
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What I applaud are three officers not facing criminal charges for a situation that yes is tragic, but justified.
Interesting. After all that you have said thus far, I am curious what you actually find tragic about this incident.
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More tragic would have been the death of these officers.
I don't think anyone was trying to kill the officers. Like I said, most people get out of the way of moving vehicles.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:00:32 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Because it seems you're of the mindset that also cries foul when correctional officers/deputy sheriff's/jail guards protect themselves from inmates.
I never said this. Let's stay on track, shall we?
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Civilians that:
a) disobeyed lawful commands that no one has the right to disobey
Or didn't recongnize that they were being addressed by cops?
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b) used a deadly weapon with the intent to cause death or serious bodily harm
Car. It's called a car, and he was trying to get away.
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The truth is that individuals like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton make merchandise of the very group of people they claim to be fighting for.
Therefore, it is okay to refer to them with racial epithets?
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Keeping them down, inciting violence, making alliances with gang bangers and drug dealers, etc etc..
Uh huh . . .
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:00:50 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5026
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Or didn't realize that they were being addressed by cops?
Yeah, you're right. These guys didn't know how cops (tact teams) looked.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Hyperbole. It's okay to say "car." That's what it was.
A car/van/motorized vehicle used in the form and fashion against a peace officer is a deadly weapon. It's the law on the books.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Did they die with 50 bullets in them the day before their wedding? Is everyone applauding their death?
No, but they weren't the ones doing the two things I keep having to spell out for you. I have not applauded their death, so let's stay focused.
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ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
I'm not pushing anything. I am evaluating folk's reaction.
That's fine, but you have to drop that angle when conversing with me because I have not used any racial/racist verbage.
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ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Interesting. After all that you have said thus far, I am curious what you actually find tragic about this incident.
That these men represent a large part of what is wrong in our society. But that's a topic for another thread and time.
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ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
I don't think anyone was trying to kill the officers. Like I said, most people get out of the way of moving vehicles.
Yeah, you're right. Known criminals using a vehicle to run over police are just trying to get them to move out of the way. Damn the police for trying to do their job. Damn the cops for simply just not "getting out of the way..."
Next time a cop is shot at by a criminal, he should just get out of the way and cry uncle.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:01:51 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5026
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Uh huh . . .
All factual points and if you don't see a problem with them and their tactics, then nothing I can say to you will make any sense.
Keep on keeping it real and see how far that gets you.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:12:17 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Yeah, you're right. These guys didn't know how cops (tact teams) looked.
They were apprehended by plainclothes cops.
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A car/van/motorized vehicle used in the form and fashion against a peace officer is a deadly weapon. It's the law on the books.
And that's why everyone always says, "I need to get an oil change in my deadly weapon," or, "I'm going to trade in my deadly weapon for a newer one," or, "Nice deadly weapon you have there!"
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I have not applauded their death, so let's stay focused.
Really? "Thumbs up" from post #2 seems like pretty focused applause to me.
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That's fine, but you have to drop that angle when conversing with me because I have not used any racial/racist verbage.
Really? "Poverty Pimp" from post #8 comes to mind.
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That these men represent a large part of what is wrong in our society.
So let's just gun them down in the streets?
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Next time a cop is shot at by a criminal, he should just get out of the way and cry uncle.
They weren't shot at in this case. The facts do matter, earthless.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:15:06 AM
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mapachito13
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How come the police officer's records are not brought up? There are many assumptions that are being made here. That the officers involved are squeaky clean is one.
When the police first encountered Mr. Bell, he didn't have a neon sign saying "felon" on his head. That the DA indicting these guys (or was it a grand jury indictment) shows there was a good amount of evidence that something was wrong with the officer's actions. DA's are usually pro-police and there would have to be something there for them to charge them.
Remember, a jury didn't acquit them, a judge did. It makes me wonder if they were tried before a panel of 12 if a different outcome would have come out. The officer's defense attourneys may have waved there rights because they knew they could get a favorable ruling from a sympathetic judge.
To be honest, I don't have enough of the particulars to truthfully make a decision either way and being that I wasn't there to witness it who knows whose telling the truth. But I don't always blindly assume the cop is. I have enough friends (including half my neighbors) that are LEO's and have heard enough of their war stories to still have that fantasy.
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And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:48:29 AM
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buckifn
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Just imagine what a race issue we would have if Adam was black and Eve was white....but since their fall we have always had a race issue anyhow...it's called humans.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:53:02 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Just imagine what a race issue we would have if Adam was black and Eve was white....but since their fall we have always had a race issue anyhow...it's called humans.
I disagree. It's called "perceptions." There are no races, only various phenotypes.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 10:53:25 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5026
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
They were apprehended by plainclothes cops.
Yes, like I said (tact team officers). With bullet proof vests, radios, mag lights, cuffs, gun on the side, shield in the front, etc etc..
Gang bangers/drug dealers know the business.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
And that's why everyone always says, "I need to get an oil change in my deadly weapon," or, "I'm going to trade in my deadly weapon for a newer one," or, "Nice deadly weapon you have there!"
The law states that a vehicle becomes a deadly weapon when it is used in a aggressive manner to cause death and or serious bodily harm. I see you're not an attorney nor in law enforcement. And that's OK, but I am informing you of the point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
So let's just gun them down in the streets?
So what are the police supposed to do when they ignore/disrespect lawful orders that no one is allowed to do. And then use a vehicle (a van) to try and mow down police officers? Do you really have this much disdain and disregard for law enforcement?
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
They weren't shot at in this case. The facts do matter, earthless.
I was giving examples that deal with the mindset you seem to possess.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:05:59 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Yes, like I said (tact team officers). With bullet proof vests, radios, mag lights, cuffs, gun on the side, shield in the front, etc etc..
Okay, back to the article:
"Undercover detectives were inside the club, and plainclothes officers were stationed outside . . . The detectives drew their weapons, said Guzman and Benefield, who testified that they never heard the plainclothes detectives identify themselves as police."
Do plainclothes cops wear bullet proof vests, radios, mag lights, cuffs, gun on the side, shield in the front, etc etc? They're pretty stupid if they do.
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The law states that a vehicle becomes a deadly weapon when it is used in a aggressive manner to cause death and or serious bodily harm.
That does not mean that someone is considered "armed" just because they are behind the wheel of a vehicle.
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I see you're not an attorney nor in law enforcement.
If you are, then some people are in serious trouble.
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So what are the police supposed to do when they ignore/disrespect lawful orders that no one is allowed to do.
Do what they usually do: pursue and subdue, not open fire with a hail of bullets.
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And then use a vehicle (a van) to try and mow down police officers?
We don't know that this was his intention. He may very well have expected them to get out of the way, or else he was in such a panic that he didn't stop to consider it one way or another. Either way, it may not have been what you are dressing it up to be.
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I was giving examples that deal with the mindset you seem to possess.
Well, I'm no fan of e-psychoanalysis, so let's just stick to the facts.
Or are you a psychologist as well as a police officer and attorney?
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 4/28/2008 11:12:34 AM >
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:10:47 AM
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earthless
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What I see is a mentality that cuddles the criminal and does away with the victim. A frame of mind that views authority figures as troublesome, to be ignored, and an entitlement mentality that always sees injustices where their may not be any and the hue of the lens are racial.
The one underlying fact remains that they outright disobeyed lawful commands, which knowing their past and current associations, is not surprising. Had they simply listened to those orders, they would have been questioned, maybe arrested, and that would have been that.
We need to make sure we teach our children to grow up respecting authority figures. A lot of drama could be prevented when life is not lived in a "us vs. them" manner.
Like I said earlier, if you do not have any problems with what the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the country do... then you and I will never see eye to eye on these issues.
Like two ships sailing past each other in the dead of night.....
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:14:21 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5026
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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A few more things...
Some people love blaming the police, regardless of the situation. Yeah, just blame the police, the judge, whoever you can. But let's not think about why these guys were hanging out at such a shady place at four in the morning. Maybe if they'd have acted responsibly instead of all suspicious and gangsta people would have taken them more seriously and they wouldn't have been shot at in the first place.
It's not a question of race or ethnicity... it's about lifestyle. Some people think the thug life is normal and routine, but most don't.
In fact, most people are downright terrified of it. Just who do cops spend 99% of their time chasing around in the streets? Guys in business suits? (That's the CIA/IRS that's after them.) No... it's guys like Sean Bell and his buddies who don't know how to have a good time without the cops getting suspicious of them.
Like I said, though... it's not about race. Blacks, whites, hispanics, polynesians, asians... all races have their own cultural subdivision that dresses like they're getting ready for a drive-by. We ALL know that but most of us won't admit it. People just insist on making everything racist.
It's time to grow up and be responsible.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:17:59 AM
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earthless
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A friend of mine sent me an email about his comments regarding the rise in gang shootings in his city. The running theme of his email hits the core of why we have a lot of these issues. He is a deputy sheriff for the second largest county in the U.S.:
"You cannot fix problems for people. It just does not work. Given the money, you could take all of these families, give them a good paying job and give them a great place to stay, but they would screw it up because without life skills you are still no better off. Unless you know the following, I cannot help you:
1. Children are born to committed couples that have a means to support them.
2. A family outing does not entail dragging your 3 year old and newborn to a filthy jail to visit Baby's Daddy.
3. Dirty clothes and beer cans strewn about the house is not "the lived in look".
4. Pants are worn over your butt and most people only wear one pair at a time. Same goes for boxers.
5. Making sure the rent is paid and the kids have something to eat takes priority over you gym shoes and the size of your rims. And most people only own one pair of sneakers.
6. Normal adults do not suck their thumbs. It is difficult to get through a job interview that way.
7. Cursing at your children does not help. I apologize if the kids do not like to go through the metal detectors and drug detection equipment at the jail. Sometimes it scares them. Maybe you should have left them at home. Jail can be intimidating to a child. And maybe, just maybe, the kids should not have to be exposed to that environment at such a young age.
8. Some people do work minimum wage jobs. No, they cannot make a living but crime just is not an option so they work two jobs. Its called pride and self respect. They know that in order to further themselves they have to start at the bottom and work towards a better life.
9. Jobs and a better life do not come to you, you have to works towards them.
10. It is not normal for children to run the streets at all hours of the night. So if you let them run the streets, do not curse them and the police when the police bring them home.
Working at the jail, I have learned that these do not apply to one ethnic group. Idiots are idiots. A lot of us have grown up poor but fortunately, with parents that had enough pride to know that it was not an excuse to lower the standard for living and they knew not to lower the expectations for their children and their behavior."
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:25:07 AM
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elastic
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undercover cops are the norm in nyc...they are on the subway, they are out in the known places of drugs and prostitution. i have seen several people arrested while on the subway and on the platform, and the officers that i have seen have always identified themselves and shown their badges before making an arrest. every single time i've seen it. (which sadly, is a lot)....and it might amaze you to know that not every person i have seen being arrested has been black.
you can choose not to believe that bell and his buddies did not hear the commands and the shouts of the police identifying themselves, that may be true-that they didn't hear it, but that does not mean that the cops didn't identify themselves. that is their training.
what is fact is that rather than taking orders from the police, bell chose to jump into a car and use it to try to kill another person and try to get away. those are not the actions of an innocent person. they were criminals, they tried to get away from the cops, they paid the price. that's what happens when you try to run instead of trying to take responsibility for yourself and your actions.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:43:01 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1170
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From: Mpls, MN
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I'm still trying to figure out the racial part. IT was 2 black cops. Are there bad cops, YES too many. Are there racist cops, yes.
quote:
3. Dirty clothes and beer cans strewn about the house is not "the lived in look".
Man, I've got to go next door and tell those Mexicans get their Coronas and limes out of their yard, and could they please move all those junk cars, they make the 'hood look junky.
quote:
Just imagine what a race issue we would have if Adam was black and Eve was white....but since their fall we have always had a race issue anyhow...it's called humans.
Dna says they we're black
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 4/28/2008 11:51:22 AM >
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 11:52:21 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5026
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Man, I've got to go next door and tell those Mexicans get their Coronas and limes out of their yard, and could they please move all those junk cars, they make the 'hood look junky.
Would be cool to do - some neighborhoods/towns, etc have laws against that kind of things to begin with.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 12:24:52 PM
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lexie
Posts: 2667
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:
To those who feel that the police were 100% in the right. O.K. What if it were not Sean Bell who was shot numerous times, but one of your loved ones? . How would you feel?
I don't know how if I feel the police were 100% in the right, but I do think this was excessive force and that should have been dealt with.
As for how would I feel if this was one of my loved ones?
Well, as the mother of a black child (and more to come), I need to teach my children that unfortunately race is still an issue in this world to SOME people. Yes, there may be police officers out there who have an issue with race, but there may also be teachers, employers, etc. who have an issue with race and it is up to MY CHILDREN to rise above those issues. They should never use their race as a scapegoat.
We live in a neighbourhood that has more police officers patrolling the streets than most other neighbourhoods. There is a reason for that. If my child chooses to hang out at places where the police frequent, or they choose to hang out with people involved in illegal activity, they need to expect to take responsibility for anything that happens from that. They need to expect that they may be hassled moreso than other people, and again that has nothing to do with their colour of their skin but with the choices they have made in life.
I have seen unfair treatment by the police against people who weren't white. I was involved in a situation in which racial preferences on the part of the cops were very obvious. But I also realize that we had to accept part of the blame for being involved in the situation in the first place.
I will do my best to teach my children right from wrong but I will also teach them responsibility and that you have to accept the consequences of the choices you make in life. If my child has a criminal record and they want to make a positive change, they need to remove themselves from ANY situation in which it could be THOUGHT that they were involved in anything wrong. If my child is driving toward ANYONE in their car in an attempt to protect their own personal safety, they need to expect that the other person will attempt to protect themselves at any cost.
Yes I would be extremely upset at the loss of my child at the hands of someone else, but I would also be upset that my child put themselves in that situation in the first place. I would also hope that the police officers involved in this situation have learned the lesson of excessive force and that they would do whatever they can to ensure that nothing like this happens to anyone else, officer or victim.
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 12:38:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Do you really believe that in court the credibility of cops do not take precedence over the word of civilians? You're not that naive.
If a judge and jury automatically take the word of law enforcement over the word of civilians, this is not their personal issue just because they are not believed if they tell the truth.
The judge spoke to the lack of credibility of those speaking on behalf of Mr. Bell... He spoke of a lack of consistency... The credibility of a witness is about who they are...
quote:
Actually a RPG would be a good weapon of choice to take out a vehicle if that is the weapon of the other person...
You know what I would do if someone was trying to run me down with a car?-- jump out of the way.
Gee, there's a novel idea.
Yes, if you are Spiderman...
John
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 12:42:13 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1749
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Man, I've got to go next door and tell those Mexicans get their Coronas and limes out of their yard, and could they please move all those junk cars, they make the 'hood look junky.
Dna says they we're black
Does that mean we could substitute the word "people" for "those Mexicans"? What does race have to do with taking care of one's house? In other words, why was it so important to mention their ethnicity? The only one on my street that has the junk cars in his driveway and the junky looking house is African-American. He's also one of the nicest people on the street. Should I just judge him for his cleanliness and assume that "those blacks" are junky? I think not!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 12:43:10 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2921
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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From what I've read, I think excessive force was used. But I hope people are taking a lesson from this that no matter what, you have to be careful in certain neighborhoods where the police make assumptions about people. Whether it's fair that they do that, it's smart to realize it and avoid something like this.
I'm sorry for the young man who was shot.
I can also see the other side of this situation. My dad went to his grave with a big scar on his neck where someone tried to cut his throat when he was a fairly young policeman. He had a few other scars on his body from trying to keep people safe in a large city. He also saw so many things that would have put most people in a tailspin that it's stunning. He was not the exception. Given that, it's hard for a policeman not to become a little edgy when they are exposed to so much garbage. We need to pray for these people who are charged with protecting us. Sadly, I don't think this is done enough.
None of what I've said is intended to give the police a pass when they use excessive force.
Just a thought of mine on the treatment of the police:
I've known several men who died in the line of duty. They were good friends of our family. Death was always a specter in our household and the household of all the police we knew. When I think of that, it's offensive to me to see or hear the word cop. It's a derogatory term whether people realize it or not. As long as my kids live in my house, they will not use that word, and I hope they never use it.
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Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case - 4/28/2008 12:49:16 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1170
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Does that mean we could substitute the word "people" for "those Mexicans"? What does race have to do with taking care of one's house? In other words, why was it so important to mention their ethnicity? The only one on my street that has the junk cars in his driveway and the junky looking house is African-American. He's also one of the nicest people on the street. Should I just judge him for his cleanliness and assume that "those blacks" are junky? I think not!
LOL, you did'nt get it, it went to the person is was meant for. It was sarcasm.......
You said my point exactly, what does race have to do with it. I agree.
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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