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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 2:07:04 PM
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jlp1
Posts: 121
Joined: 4/4/2008
From: Chicago
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Too many preachers preach pretty and vain things, not the things that we need to here. Church is only for fellowshiping not for salvation, no church building is goin to give anyone salvation, Christ is bring salvation with Him, so if anyone thinks they are saved think again. I wouldn't be to quick to defend any churh or pastor or denomintion only God and Christ and They don't even need my help.
Zechariah 10:2
For the idols speak delusion; The diviners envision lies, And tell false dreams; They comfort in vain. Therefore the people wend their way like sheep; They are in trouble because there is no shepherd.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Micah 3:11
The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Jeremiah 23:26
How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Titus 1:10
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
quote:
evry1needsgod
Key word there is 'want', and that's the issue. It doesn't matter what we want. Human nature WANTS to feel comfortable, and they WANT their friends and piers to pat them on the back and tell them how great a person they are, and the need of a Savior of our sins goes right out the door. Human nature WANTS to sin. So be VERY careful of what you WANT to hear. I'd focus on studying the Bible, and figuring out what you NEED to hear, regardless to how comfortable it may or may not be.
Hell is most certainly a part of the Gospel. Jesus Himself preached about it, so don't you think we ought to? No, I don't believe it should be ALL we preach, but it CAN NOT be excluded, which it has been in this 'watered-down gospel', to make the saved and the lost feel good about themselves. I'm sorry, but if an individual is not saved when they die, they will perish in Hell, PERIOD. To me, that's pretty darn serious, and I think we, as Christians, have an obligation to warn others, don't you think??? Jesus did...
quote:
Dakotasunbeam It really isn't that many true followers, real disciples of Christ. I think there are a lot of "christians" in name only and there are others who feel that they are living a good life. But truly following Christ and denying self . . . that's a tall order, even by Jesus Christ's standards, and there will be few that follow hard after that Way.
The bible teaches that many false prophets will come.
< Message edited by jlp1 -- 5/7/2008 2:52:26 PM >
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 2:13:43 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
As for mega-churches, it’s been our experience that it’s impossible to have true fellowship in such a setting. One such local church even says this on its “home fellowship” page: “We often don't experience the true fellowship (Koinonia) that God intended for us on a Sunday morning...”
Why go to such a “church” if what’s happening is NOT what “God intended”?
That is someones experience at ONE individual church. ALL churches are different. That could easily describe a church with 50 in attendance, as well as a church with 5,000 in attendance.
Because, in our 2 previous, and much smaller, churches that we attended, "TRUE FELLOWSHIP" did not exist. It's why we felt God calling us to other churches....
It's not as if we sought out a large church....actually, we avoided "visiting" there for quite some time during our quest for a new church home (as we believed all of the negative perceptions of such a large church)....
we went there, eventually (I just woke up one sunday morning, and suggested to my wife that we have to go and visit at least once...I believe that was God "nudging" me...)....and, we liked the biblically-strong Gospel message preached...the church's dedication to the community and outreach ministries....and we continued going there....and, eventually did join the church. In a short time, and over the past 6+ years, we have experienced much more "true fellowship" than we EVER did at any other church we had been a part of.
With regards to the smaller churches we have experienced....sure, they had "true fellowship"...with ONE ANOTHER.....not with "outsiders"....not with "visitors"....not with the "lost" in their community.....just with ONE ANOTHER...and, no one else was "welcome"....
now, which church is doing as "God intended"?
Iam sure there are plenty of awesome smaller churches in small communities that are terrific....and, Iam positive that there are some 'mega-churches' that don't have the "True Fellowship" that they should, or that ours does. All churches are different.
I certainly don't, and cannot, judge any of them simply because of the size of the congregation....without, at least, personally visiting them.....
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 5/7/2008 2:29:12 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 2:29:31 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1266
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
now, which church is doing as "God intended"?
..
Neither, if you believe what the Scriptures say.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 2:35:36 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
now, which church is doing as "God intended"?
..
Neither, if you believe what the Scriptures say.
Neither?
so, what did God "intend"? OH...i know...God "intended" for all churches to be JUST LIKE YOURS! right?
I don't recall God putting a "limit" on the number of people who could attend church, and be active members, at any one particular congregation, with any amount "over that" not being "what He intended".
at what point should we have put out the "no vacancy: we're all filled" sign out front?.....and, stop reaching the "lost" for Christ?
And, stop welcoming those who want to hear God's word?
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 5/7/2008 2:43:36 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 2:56:03 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 248
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kernsfamily and notmycity
Are you two battling over who can use the most "quotation" marks? LOL. There should be "something" in the "rules" about "using" "quotation" "marks".
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 3:00:31 PM
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jlp1
Posts: 121
Joined: 4/4/2008
From: Chicago
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notmyword, quote:
Neither, if you believe what the Scriptures say. I agree God has written his words on our hearts all we have to do is pray and search and we will find. STOP defending these churches it does you no good.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 3:18:07 PM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4754
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
According to Scripture, “how and why” are believers to gather? (Hint: One place to find the answer is in Hebrews ch. 10)
I've read this passage several times this afternoon and can find no support whatsoever that churches can't be of good size. Could you please point it out, because obviously I'm not observant enough to see it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Why go to such a “church” if what’s happening is NOT what “God intended”?
I don't think anyone has said that it is a good idea to go to a "church" if they are doing things against what "God intended."
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 4:16:42 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1266
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
now, which church is doing as "God intended"?
..
Neither, if you believe what the Scriptures say.
Neither?
so, what did God "intend"? OH...i know...God "intended" for all churches to be JUST LIKE YOURS! right?
I don't recall God putting a "limit" on the number of people who could attend church, and be active members, at any one particular congregation, with any amount "over that" not being "what He intended".
at what point should we have put out the "no vacancy: we're all filled" sign out front?.....and, stop reaching the "lost" for Christ?
And, stop welcoming those who want to hear God's word?
It isn’t the size that matters so much as the DISOBEDIENCE to Scripture.
Read 1 Corinthians 14 and please compare it to your church.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 4:40:43 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
It isn’t the size that matters so much as the DISOBEDIENCE to Scripture.
you don't even know the NAME of my church...where it is located....or anything...
and you're saying it's "disobedient" to scripture???
what about Hebrews 10? wasn't that supposed to "enlighten" us on why a church like mine (which you haven't a clue about), is "disobedient" to scriptures???
p.s. my apologies for so many "quotes"...
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 4:44:33 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
now, which church is doing as "God intended"?
..
Neither, if you believe what the Scriptures say.
Neither?
so, what did God "intend"? OH...i know...God "intended" for all churches to be JUST LIKE YOURS! right?
I don't recall God putting a "limit" on the number of people who could attend church, and be active members, at any one particular congregation, with any amount "over that" not being "what He intended".
at what point should we have put out the "no vacancy: we're all filled" sign out front?.....and, stop reaching the "lost" for Christ?
And, stop welcoming those who want to hear God's word?
It isn’t the size that matters so much as the DISOBEDIENCE to Scripture.
Read 1 Corinthians 14 and please compare it to your church.
because we don't speak "in tongues"???
Acts 2:42 best describes my church....not EXACTLY, of course....but, it's pretty darn close.
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 5/7/2008 4:57:43 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 6:02:42 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1266
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
because we don't speak "in tongues"???
No.
1 Cor 14:23-40
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
For the purpose of comparing to ALL churches we’ve been to, please note verses 29-31.
All churches we’ve been to have one or a few who lord it over the congregations. Everyone sits, eyes front, while one guy does all the “preaching/teaching”. This is not the true gospel in action.
Worse yet, these people are hirelings because they draw a salary for that which is freely given by God. Compare this to what Paul wrote:
Acts 20:33-35
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Paul WORKED for a living, and he helped support those who were with him.
Before one can preach the gospel one must first live th gospel.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 6:11:39 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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Notmycity,
Well said! Many of the churches of today, really are bastions of tradition, pomp and ceremony. Thank God for the Holy Spirit, believers will find each other!
quote:
We have forsaken what many/most think of as “churches”, because 100% of the ones we’ve known are built on man’s tradition, as opposed to the Word of God. We see this as the falling away mentioned in 2 Thess 2:3.
The same spirit of Diotrephes (3 Jn 1:9-10) rules most in Christendom. It’s all about money, power and purpose, but it’s all apart from God’s Word.
HisCovenant,
I do recall that the Bible says, So as it was in the Days of Lot so shall it be in the last day (to paraphrase). Even so I think there was a comparison made of Noe (Noah). In fact, in all of the WHOLE earth . . . not a city or a nation or even a continent, but in all of the whole earth, God couldn't find more than a tiney family to spare! Their minds and hearts were not continually evil!!! Wow!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 6:26:13 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
All churches we’ve been to have one or a few who lord it over the congregations. Everyone sits, eyes front, while one guy does all the “preaching/teaching”. This is not the true gospel in action.
Worse yet, these people are hirelings because they draw a salary for that which is freely given by God. Compare this to what Paul wrote:
Acts 20:33-35
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
So, then our "Sunday school class" is more accurate.......as there is a "teacher", but also plenty of opportunity for others to make their own remarks, observations, etc...etc...
IS there a church, in which the church body does NOT come together to hear the pastor preach, as you describe? Jesus "preached" to crowds of thousands on many occassions....
Because the church chooses to pay our pastor a salary? (as far as I know it does).... That "argument" has been brought up many times here in the discussion groups....and, is not "relevant" to the times we live in....
I don't see how our pastor could have "another job", AND be an effective pastor at the same time....please tell me how that might be done.
perhaps "RC" or another pastor here can fill you in on the the details...
what about those other passages you mentioned? how are those "relevant"?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 6:27:23 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
Many of the churches of today, really are bastions of tradition, pomp and ceremony.
what would examples of this be?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 6:27:28 PM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4754
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Even so I think there was a comparison made of Noe (Noah). In fact, in all of the WHOLE earth . . . not a city or a nation or even a continent, but in all of the whole earth, God couldn't find more than a tiney family to spare!
That passage is speaking of God's judgement and that He will not spare the wicked and He will keep the righteous, not making comparisons about the numerical ratio of the saved in Noah's day and Peter's day and our day. It take huge leaps of logic to say that passage makes a statement on what actual size we can expect a church to be. It's simply not there.
eta: quote original since I cross posted and it wan't clear what I was addressing.
< Message edited by HisCovenant -- 5/7/2008 6:34:40 PM >
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 6:48:15 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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HisCovenant,
My point is simply that there are a few Christians.
Kernsfamily,
Ahh, so much! I'll pick one: Clergy/Laity divide.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 7:03:38 PM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4754
Joined: 4/12/2005
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That's true, but one can't make sweeping comments on the size of churches just because the way is narrow and few were saved in Noah and Lot's days. Even the first church in Acts had 3000+ who were in continual fellowship and unity until the dispersion. A large church can exist. It's not an impossibility. It's not the size that dictates if the believers are true.
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 7:26:16 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1146
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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True.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
That's true, but one can't make sweeping comments on the size of churches just because the way is narrow and few were saved in Noah and Lot's days. Even the first church in Acts had 3000+ who were in continual fellowship and unity until the dispersion. A large church can exist. It's not an impossibility. It's not the size that dictates if the believers are true.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/7/2008 9:20:02 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2165
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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I go to an evangelical Anglican church that has been averaging about 400 attenders on a Sunday morning. Two weeks ago we moved into our new building and are already maximg out the 500 chairs we had available to us. We are in an area of town that has been redeveloped over the years and we are the first new building in a new section of that development.
Our growth is due to the fact we remain faithful to the scriptures, the sacrements, and the Spirit. Our goal is not to become a mega-church but to be a church-planting church. We have already planted one church in Chapel Hill, and another one is in the works.
That said, even when a small group reaches more than 20 people, it loses its intimacy. We make it known that even though we are a small church in comparison to a mega-church, one is not going to get his relationship needs met in an hour-and-half on Sunday morning regardless of the size of the church.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/8/2008 9:44:33 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1266
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
...Because the church chooses to pay our pastor a salary? (as far as I know it does).... That "argument" has been brought up many times here in the discussion groups....and, is not "relevant" to the times we live in....
I don't see how our pastor could have "another job", AND be an effective pastor at the same time....please tell me how that might be done.
perhaps "RC" or another pastor here can fill you in on the the details...
what about those other passages you mentioned? how are those "relevant"?
It’s ALL done through faith in God’s Word as opposed to pagan traditions that have filtered in from the true church’s inception back in the first century.
It’s all in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14 is clear when it says, when “ the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?”, and goes on to describe what a TRUE group worship gathering is SUPPOSED to be like....”But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” Is this happening in your church?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/9/2008 4:40:43 AM
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Annie64
Posts: 507
Joined: 6/4/2007
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How did this turn into a debate about mega-churches versus small churches? Kernsfamily says that small churches don't welcome visitors. Notmycity says that mega-churches don't have proper fellowship. Okay, you're both right. As a teenager I once visited a church and sat in Sunday School where the teacher asked the girl next to me, "And who's your friend?" She replied to my intense mortification, "I haven't got the slightest idea!" Her tone indicated, at least to my hyper-sensitive 13-year-old self, that she wanted it known in no uncertain terms that it wasn't her fault I was there. There was nothing wrong with the teachings of this church as far as I know, unless it had changed over the years. It was the church where my Dad became a Christian as a teenager years before. Flash forward about 25 years. My husband and I had been wounded by our church, as happens sometimes. And we took our wounded selves to what was to our way of thinking a mega-church. It had about 1000 people. We filled out the visitors card and on Monday afternoon there was a welcoming message on our answering maching from the senior pastor. That was the only contact we ever had with that pastor in the three months we attended that church. We were used to dealing with pastors as friends, and wouldn't have known what to say if we had made an appointment to see him. But we needed a pastor badly, and so we moved on to a smaller church where the pastor was accessable. There wasn't anything wrong with the teachings of this church either. That wasn't the issue in either place.
I know of small churches which have purposely worked on the problem of lack of welcome for strangers, and I know of a large church (a different one) which developed small groups before small groups were all the rage--or maybe I just hadn't heard about them yet--to combat the problem of lack of fellowship. The issue isn't how big a church is; the issue is what the church believes and teaches.
I do not agree that a large crowd listening to a minister isn't Biblical. There is a story in the book of Acts where Paul was preaching and a young man fell asleep and fell out a window. I can't imagine even in a different culture that the guy would have been sitting in an upper window if there was plenty of seating inside for everyone who wanted to be there ( that is, there was a large congregation, at least bigger than whatever building they were in would hold). And he wouldn't have fallen asleep if he had been interacting rather than simply listening. So I disagree that having a congregation sit and listen to a preacher is unbiblical.
Anyway, bottom line, I do believe there is a "watered-down" gospel out there that doesn't hold water with the true Gospel. But, while the size of the church may indicate some things about it, you've got to look further than the attendance records to find out whether or not any particular church has fallen victim to it.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Watered-Down Gospel - 5/9/2008 8:59:34 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
Kernsfamily says that small churches don't welcome visitors.
I wasn't saying that ALL smaller churches don't....iam sure many do...but, of the ones we had visited while seeking out a new church home weren't very "friendly" towards those whom they didn't already know.
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Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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