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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 10:37:29 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2690
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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convenant2,
I understand there is conflict with your daughter-in-law, and a good part of the crux of the conflict appears to be your daughter-in-law's temper. Given that, what would they have to do in order for the conflict to go away?
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 11:41:32 AM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
Regarding the accusations....Are they of such magnitude that you can not forgive and let go for the sake of the relationship?
Forgiving is not the problem for us. In the past we set aside various other minor instances for the sake of keeping peace but it was this instance that got out of hand after those false accusations erupted several years ago that produced actions since then that have been very hurtful to us. Her parents and her brother now have nothing to do with us because of those misconceptions that got stuck in her head and passed onto them. We had a good relationship with them and saw them each time we had previously visited in Virginia. That is now gone. We have been to Virginia 4 times during the past 2 years yet we were not allowed to see our grandchildren - because of those false ideas that also surfaced again at that first group meeting. Forgiveness alone on our part clearly hasn't stopped her from acting on the resentment that she has held onto for 2 years now and it doesn't appear that she is willing to let go of it without someone other than my husband and I to help and guide her away from those misunderstandings.
quote:
I think maybe (possibly?) the daughter in law didn't want to come to the session because she is feeling (conviction/guilt) over the accusation?
As I said above, the daughter-in-law had agreed to the meeting to discuss those residual issues that had been tabled. It wasn't until the counselor decided to remove her from the session that of course, to her and our son, was cheerfully grabbed onto by them both.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 11:51:36 AM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
convenant2,
I understand there is conflict with your daughter-in-law, and a good part of the crux of the conflict appears to be your daughter-in-law's temper. Given that, what would they have to do in order for the conflict to go away?
At this point, I can only say what we would like to see happen. But that doesn't mean that it will happen - unless the hand of God turns them around. We would like to see them go to the counselors and tell them that "it was unfair to have gotten my parents down there with the understanding that all 4 of us would be present to discuss unresolved issues that were important to them, and to us, for the sake of a healthy family relationship and then change it once they had arrived and spent the money to do so. You need to set that straight with them and my wife and I will attend that meeting to continue dealing with the issues."
< Message edited by covenant2 -- 4/27/2008 12:05:13 PM >
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 11:54:48 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 5316
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
Forgiveness alone on our part clearly hasn't stopped her from acting on the resentment that she has held onto for 2 years now and it doesn't appear that she is willing to let go of it without someone other than my husband and I to help and guide her away from those misunderstandings. Forgive me for stating the obvious ~ but sometimes we need someone who isn't involved in the situation to help sort our thoughts, feelings and believes (of a matter) out. From what I gather, she has accused you (or been lead to believe) some things about you that aren't true. It can be hard for someone to face someone they've falsely accused of something and your dil may simply not felt she was up to this.
quote:
It wasn't until the counselor decided to remove her from the session that of course, to her and our son, was cheerfully grabbed onto by them both. I thought your son was at the meeting? Again, it can be hard for someone to face someone who they've falsely accused. It may have seemed an ideal short-term solution to the problem, but your dil may be regretting it now ~ and unable to speak with you about it for fear of your reaction.
_____________________________
The loose cannon inside the ship is far more dangerous
than the storm that rages outside the ship.
My blog
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 4:30:38 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 620
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Misunderstandings are often without resolution. As hard as that is to accept and as much as we want to believe otherwise, sometimes we have to settle for something less than the ideal.
I don't pretend to understand the situation you have described. But I think you need to give up the fight. Stop demanding. Stop wanting things to turn out 'the way you think they should'. You may very well be right. But give it up. Give in. Just love and accept your son and daughterinlaw AS THEY ARE. Have no expectations. Make no demands. Just love them. Accept them. And be willing to do all FOR them, THEIR way. You have nothing to lose by giving up except your pride which is something we all need to give up anyway. You will come out the victor in every way because it is the way of Christ.
Bless you!
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 6:12:16 PM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Misunderstandings are often without resolution. As hard as that is to accept and as much as we want to believe otherwise, sometimes we have to settle for something less than the ideal.
I don't pretend to understand the situation you have described. But I think you need to give up the fight. Stop demanding. Stop wanting things to turn out 'the way you think they should'. You may very well be right. But give it up. Give in. Just love and accept your son and daughterinlaw AS THEY ARE. Have no expectations. Make no demands. Just love them. Accept them. And be willing to do all FOR them, THEIR way. You have nothing to lose by giving up except your pride which is something we all need to give up anyway. You will come out the victor in every way because it is the way of Christ.
Bless you!
I could do that but could you tell me how your gospel squares what Jesus tell us to do when conflict arises between Christians?
" And if thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican." (Mt. 18:15-17)
I think Jesus was recommending that we try to resolve those difference in a peaceful manner isn't he? I don't see in these verses where Jesus was saying that "if you try and follow my principles I will consider you to be argumentative, demanding, unloving, expecting far too much, uncompromising, intolerant and prideful."
There are times when we all have to do as you say for the sake of peace but then there are times when you do have to say "you can't do that to me and still have the relationship stay healthy."
God bless!
< Message edited by covenant2 -- 4/27/2008 6:23:37 PM >
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/27/2008 6:56:20 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 620
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quote:
you can't do that to me and still have the relationship stay healthy
But YOU can give up what you determine to be healthy. Pursue peace. And the cost to YOU may be to give up what you think, what you know to be right, even what IS right. Lay it down.
I have seen few convinced by words. I have seen some convinced by actions. Let them see love. And if they never respond, God sees. And that is all that matters. Blessings! 
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 12:28:56 AM
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creationtalk
Posts: 501
Joined: 6/9/2005
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covenant2,
I've read the whole thing through and I don't really have any advice except sometimes its better to just let things go than keep fighting a losing battle...and maybe you should consider letting the whole issue pass and simply ask your son for forgiveness for this last fiasco then let him know that you want to continue to have a relationship with him and the grandchildren.
I speak from experience. My MIL did not like me from day one. She called me an uneducated backwoods tramp to my face. She refused to ever step foot in my house the 9 years I was married to her son, and the first 3 would hang up the phone if I answered when she called. When we visited at their home, she took every opportunity to point out my errors in dress, hairstyle, conduct (holding hands in public), beliefs, and any other thing she could find. But for all that, she was my husband's mother. He offered to cut his parents out of his life for my sake, but I wouldn't let him. I finally told him when they invited us for visits, he could go and I would stay home. I couldn't make her like me, I couldn't do anything to solve the conflicts. However, I could determine how I would treat HER and I could make choices about whether to engage in conflict with her.
As far as the counseling session...sorry, you were the ones who wasted the $1000, not your son, DIL, or the counselors. You do not know what benefit might have come from the session since you chose to not attend.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 8:48:06 AM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
simply ask your son for forgiveness for this last fiasco
We would do that, except that we feel that the responsibility for this fiasco lies with the cournselor. My husband and I, my son and his wife and the counselor had all agreed to a group meeting PRIOR TO our driving the distance for the sole purpose of "discussing residual issues" that my daughter-in-law (who was the primary cause of the conflict) had brought up and had been left unresolved at the 1st meeting. The counselors knew that it was her that we wanted to have further discussions with in hopes of getting those things clarified once and for all. The excuses that the counselor gave for omitting her from the meeting were because she felt that "we could use a little bonding time with our son." But that was not necessary! Both him and his wife had set aside 9 days of "bonding time" and the counselor had the calendar of those marked days. A meeting without the primary cause of the conflict present was a huge waste of time, money and inconvenience for us without any compromising on their part after we expressed our strong feelings about the unnecessary change only after we had gotten down there.
quote:
"I speak from experience. My MIL did not like me from day one. She called me an uneducated backwoods tramp to my face. She refused to ever step foot in my house the 9 years I was married to her son, and the first 3 would hang up the phone if I answered when she called. When we visited at their home, she took every opportunity to point out my errors in dress, hairstyle, conduct (holding hands in public), beliefs, and any other thing she could find. But for all that, she was my husband's mother. He offered to cut his parents out of his life for my sake, but I wouldn't let him. I finally told him when they invited us for visits, he could go and I would stay home. I couldn't make her like me, I couldn't do anything to solve the conflicts. However, I could determine how I would treat HER and I could make choices about whether to engage in conflict with her."
My heart goes out to you. There really are In-Law parents like that out there - and then there really are daughter-in-laws that can be just as difficult too. But, believe me when I say that that is not us. We bent over backwards to ignore "minor" things that were "odd behaviors" until the one incident that went beyond acceptable when false accusations were spread to other people that we were acquainted with.
quote:
You do not know what benefit might have come from the session since you chose to not attend.
As I said, it would have been like trying to bake a cake without the main ingredient - the eggs.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 11:07:33 AM
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dradynsmom
Posts: 60
Joined: 4/12/2007
Status: online
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You seem to not be willing to take any of the blame for this. Also alot of the problem seems to be about the money. Money is the root of all evil IMO. You were already going to have to spend the money so why not use it for somehting constructive. Do you realize that maybe your son feels that he is not important enough in your eyes to spend time with? You drove down there and just because his wife wasn't going to be there you got all upset and refused to meet with him. And by the way I bet you would haed had your nine days of "bonding time" if you would have spent the two hours with him. Instead you went down and did nothing what so ever to resolve the conflict and spent 7 days just being mad.
And to answer your question - you should concede. I agree that the conselors screwed up but you shouldn't have taken there mistake out on your son and his family.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 11:26:38 AM
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phreddy
Posts: 285
Joined: 3/28/2007
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Hindsight: Why didn't you take the opportunity of the first meeting without the DIL to assert your opinion to the counselors that she needed to be there for the rest of the sessions? I think you made it a self-fulfilling prophecy that nothing would happen if the DIL wasn't there. You made sure nothing would happen by not participating yourselves. I am sorry that it did not go well for you, but your anger(or sense of hurt) seems to have been an additional issue this last trip and limited a chance to salvage anything from the time and money you invested.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 3:23:41 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2871
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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Who should concede in this family conflict?
You and your husband should have conceded. You asked 2 counselors to help you resolve this family issue. Then you proceeded to ignore the counselors' recommendation to have this session without your DIL. Did it occur to you that the counselors may have actually known what they we doing? You should have TRUSTED the counselors. A compromise could have been made that a second session be scheduled later in the week you were there that your DIL would attend. It was your own stubborness that cost you no progress.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 3:41:05 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1015
Joined: 4/29/2005
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It seems to me that you have confronted her with her sin (bearing false witness) both one-on-one, and with witnesses. She has not repented (very likely because she actually believes the charges to be true) and so, why are we not to the "treat her like a tax collector" part of the plan yet? Why are you unable to be gracious-but-distant from this woman? (Probably because she has hostages - but even so...)
It is absolutely wrong of you to drag everyone through a process like this, because you have a driving force within you that MUST clear your name. You want back what her statements have cost you... But you can't have it. (Not unless her heart changes, but that's not something you can do anything about.)
The wisest thing is to work with what you have left of your relationship... and treat her like a tax collector (which means you should have supper with her even if she never changes her tune).
You put a major roadblock in your own path when you refused to go on with the modified meeting. It would have been better to have gone ahead and baked the cake without eggs - even if it turned out to be useless - just to have been seen to be trying. Then you could have gone forward. As it is, instead of flat cake and wasted flour, you have poison and bile. If you want to get past that, you need to seek forgiveness from your son for your over-reaction to an unfortunate situation.
PS - If your DIL does still believe her accusations to be true, I completely understand why that would have been an explosive meeting that a good counselor would want to prevent. A little more warning would have been nice (and much cheaper) but it was probably a good decision even at the last minute. Perhaps there was a reason that the counselor did not discover the problem until it was too late to cancel more appropriately.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 3:49:22 PM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
A compromise could have been made that a second session be scheduled later in the week you were there that your DIL would attend.
No. The counselor was stubborn and uncompromising. We begged our son and his wife to meet with us alone because we were so confident that we could resolve it as a family but they demanded that we do it their way or else they would not see us at all. They were stubborn, uncompromising and insensitive to the counselors changing the agreed upon intentions to discussing the issues. We asked him to trust us - he chose to trust the counselor instead.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 4:08:08 PM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
It is absolutely wrong of you to drag everyone through a process like this, because you have a driving force within you that MUST clear your name. You want back what her statements have cost you...
A- We did not decide to drag everyone through this - it was our son that originally insisted on counseling through his church. We agreed to that as long as his wife agreed to be there. They both agreed to. The counselor agreed to also.
B- We do not have a "driving force to clear our names." We know the accusations are false. It is because his wife has acted upon those misconceptions for 2 years over various incidences - all of which have kept resolution almost impossible. Until those misconceptions are removed resolution is practically non-existent.
quote:
The wisest thing is to work with what you have left of your relationship... and treat her like a tax collector (which means you should have supper with her even if she never changes her tune).
Uh, I don't think that is what the scriptures is recommending to do. Scripture is recommending to basically "treat the person as a Gentile" - meaning a non-Christian. Jesus was essentially saying that we should be staying away from unrepentant people because Christians who have done wrong to others should be willing to set things right. Do we want it to come to that? No, of course not! But, Jesus never said that it is the fault of the wronged if it does end up coming to that - contrary from what I see coming from Christians on this thread.
quote:
PS - If your DIL does still believe her accusations to be true, I completely understand why that would have been an explosive meeting that a good counselor would want to prevent.....Perhaps there was a reason that the counselor did not discover the problem until it was too late to cancel more appropriately.
No, it was not going to be any more explosive meeting than the first one was - and it was AT that meeting that we ALL agreed to a second meeting to further discuss the problems that got us there in the first place.
< Message edited by covenant2 -- 4/28/2008 4:22:44 PM >
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 4:34:18 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1015
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quote:
Uh, I don't think that is what the scriptures is recommending to do. Scripture is recommending to basically "treat the person as a Gentile" - meaning a non-Christian. Jesus was essentially saying that we should be staying away from unrepentant people because Christians who have done wrong to others should be willing to set things right. Do we want it to come to that? No, of course not! But, Jesus never said that it is the fault of the wronged if it does end up coming to that - contrary from what I see coming from Christians on this thread.
I thought Jesus was the one who ate with tax collectors and said that it is not the healthy that need a physician. He was saying we should treat them as non-Christians... how exactly do we treat non-Christians? We certainly don't stay away from them! We have an obligation to cultivate relationships with them, show them God's love, and treat them graciously. (What exactly are you saying you would have done if your son had married a non-Christian?)
What she should be willing to do is not at issue. What is really happening is that she is unwilling to repent. I Must have missed some verses that say, "If your brother does not repent, you should continue to bring it up and try to browbeat him into repentance, telling him repeatedly what the right thing to do would be, and you should keep this up for at least 2 years."
Whether or not you "want it to come to that" -- that's where it is. It's not your fault that she won't repent, but your continued actions are not Biblical. The response that was commanded by your Lord and Saviour was that you make your 3 attempts, after which you should treat her the same way you treat the other non-Christians that you know... And if you really think that means I'm recommending that you cut her off, I'd suggest you pick a gospel and sit down to read it through. I mean that you should treat her with grace and abandon your attempt to hold her accountable for the wrong(s) she has done you... and the ones she will probably continue to do as long as she continues to believe that whatever she has said is true.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 5:00:13 PM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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pbaribeault
At the time of Christ, the Gentiles and the tax collectors (the unrepentant) were ones that according to the famous and respected commentator writes; "... and with whom the Jews might not eat, nor keep any friendly and familiar acquaintance: and so such that have been privately admonished and publicly rebuked, without success, their company is to be shunned, and intimate friendship with them to be avoided."
Am I advocating this? No! In essence, I'm saying that we are very, very weary of all this. We have tried and tried for 2 years and there is much that has not been written here but we are at the very edge of giving up completely and walking away from it all.
Bless
< Message edited by covenant2 -- 4/28/2008 5:07:40 PM >
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 5:11:14 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 3315
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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Walking away?
As in not having anymore to do with your son or grandchildren?
How sad. 
You may never be able to clear your name, but if you know in your heart the accusations are false, then God knows it too and He is the only One to whom you have to be accountable to.
I would let this pass, forgive and let go.
Your grandchildren need grandparents and your son needs his parents.
_____________________________
~Kimmie
~~Live simply.~~
Love generously.
Care deeply.
Speak kindly.
~~Leave the rest to God.~~
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 5:12:08 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1967
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: online
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quote:
We have tried and tried for 2 years and there is much that has not been written here but we are at the very edge of giving up completely and walking away from it all.
That sounds like the best thing you could do for your son's marriage.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 5:22:50 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1015
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I think Jesus would have been recommending his own treatment of tax collectors and gentiles, rather than the way the Jews treated them, for which He rebuked them. Respected commentators are not immune from a leaning towards pharisee-ness... This interpretation (the one you quoted) was very common for a long time, but many scholars have questioned whether shunning is a legitimate application of the text.
In any case, you might try it. If you are really on the edge of treating her like a Jew would have treated a sinner, you might be willing to take "one last kick at the cat" and try treating her the way Jesus treats sinners... Maybe just for a little while? As a test? Just to be sure you've done everything that Jesus might have meant when He said that?
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 5:39:42 PM
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Sadey
Posts: 425
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I don't have any words of wisdom for you but just wanted you to know how bad I feel for you. It has to be just awful for you and I do know that we are sometimes at our children's mercy and that who our children marry can change our lives forever. So just wanted to let you know that I understand your pain and it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, the pain hurts just as bad either way. Please don't give up hope because God can always move when least expected.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 5:58:54 PM
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covenant2
Posts: 34
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
quote:
This interpretation (the one you quoted) was very common for a long time, but many scholars have questioned whether shunning is a legitimate application of the text.
I don't think I was disagreeing with this really....I take it to mean that it is better to walk away than keep beating your head against a wall when you know you are getting nowhere.
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RE: Who should concede in this family conflict? - 4/28/2008 6:41:35 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 491
Joined: 7/13/2007
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What did your son have to say about the meeting being cancelled? What did he say about you not attending the meeting anyway (without the dil)? How does he feel about all of this?
There may be some things going on that you have no idea about and that may have been the reason she was prevented from attending. Maybe that's why your son chose to trust the counselors (for reasons you don't know about). Even so, if the only reason the counselors agreed to the change was because they thought the meeting might become volatile (dil temper) then that sounds like a good enough reason to me.
quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
A compromise could have been made that a second session be scheduled later in the week you were there that your DIL would attend.
No. The counselor was stubborn and uncompromising. We begged our son and his wife to meet with us alone because we were so confident that we could resolve it as a family but they demanded that we do it their way or else they would not see us at all. They were stubborn, uncompromising and insensitive to the counselors changing the agreed upon intentions to discussing the issues. We asked him to trust us - he chose to trust the counselor instead.
So the counselor refused to have a meeting later in the week (after first session with just parents and son) that included the dil?
I think it would have been best to attend the meeting anyway because it's better to get something out of the trip rather than nothing at all. The conflict may revolve around the dil but your son is very much involved in all of it so at least you could have talked with him. By refusing to meet with him you lost out on spending bonding time with him and probably made him and his wife upset.
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