Questions for you .... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [People] >> He Says



Message

rgod -> Questions for you .... (4/28/2008 4:11:41 AM)

I'm reading a book (Where have all the good men gone?) and the author wrote about the issues that Christian men talked about in an informal poll that she did. Her take on the women's issues were dead on - but I wasn't sure about her take on men's issues to I thought I'd post here and see if you agree with her assessement. A caveat - these are pretty much "thorny" issues - not the pleasant, mild stuff - so obviously this is not the complete picture. Married guys, please chime in if you wish.

1. Women expect too much from men spiritually (real men are rough around the edges). From her research, she said that a lot of men complained about "Wild at Heart" because it contains an unattainable goal. She also said that some men were really creeped out when a woman said something like "Jesus is my mate." (I love the Lord myself, but was never really said that - I'm not knocking anyone - but I do believe that God made us male and female and gave Adam Eve for a reason ...) Do you agree or disagree?

2. Too many women want bad boys and bypass the nice men. Yes or no?

3. Christian women don't keep themselves attractive enough and many of them are overweight. Too many aren't dressing up to the standard that men see everyday. She didn't say that men wanted a model wife - but rather that they wanted someone who cares about her appearance. But if she's slender ... that doesn't hurt.

4. You have a very real fear of divorce (can you say half?)

5. Christian women are too self absorbed, shallow, or just want to be friends. Or to put it another way, they don't give out clear signals and want to put you into the friend zone too quickly - particularly if you are a nice guy. Or they don't respond if you initiate and can sometimes be lacking in courtesy.

6. It's hard to tell Christian from Non-Christian women these days - because they are doing the same thing their worldly counterparts do (living with people, having premarital sex, etc.) Agree or disagree?

7. It is tough to pursue a woman, particularly in church, because if you date her casually - everything thinks you are an item. If you decide she is not the one and try to date another girl, then you get labeled as a player.

I'm using a lot of her wording which can come across a bit harsh ... but I am curious to know what you guys think about these statements.



Pauley464 -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/28/2008 9:52:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rgod

I'm reading a book (Where have all the good men gone?) and the author wrote about the issues that Christian men talked about in an informal poll that she did. Her take on the women's issues were dead on - but I wasn't sure about her take on men's issues to I thought I'd post here and see if you agree with her assessement. A caveat - these are pretty much "thorny" issues - not the pleasant, mild stuff - so obviously this is not the complete picture. Married guys, please chime in if you wish.

1. Women expect too much from men spiritually (real men are rough around the edges). From her research, she said that a lot of men complained about "Wild at Heart" because it contains an unattainable goal. She also said that some men were really creeped out when a woman said something like "Jesus is my mate." (I love the Lord myself, but was never really said that - I'm not knocking anyone - but I do believe that God made us male and female and gave Adam Eve for a reason ...) Do you agree or disagree?

2. Too many women want bad boys and bypass the nice men. Yes or no?

3. Christian women don't keep themselves attractive enough and many of them are overweight. Too many aren't dressing up to the standard that men see everyday. She didn't say that men wanted a model wife - but rather that they wanted someone who cares about her appearance. But if she's slender ... that doesn't hurt.

4. You have a very real fear of divorce (can you say half?)

5. Christian women are too self absorbed, shallow, or just want to be friends. Or to put it another way, they don't give out clear signals and want to put you into the friend zone too quickly - particularly if you are a nice guy. Or they don't respond if you initiate and can sometimes be lacking in courtesy.

6. It's hard to tell Christian from Non-Christian women these days - because they are doing the same thing their worldly counterparts do (living with people, having premarital sex, etc.) Agree or disagree?

7. It is tough to pursue a woman, particularly in church, because if you date her casually - everything thinks you are an item. If you decide she is not the one and try to date another girl, then you get labeled as a player.

I'm using a lot of her wording which can come across a bit harsh ... but I am curious to know what you guys think about these statements.



I am going to preface my responses by stating that my answers are based solely on my personal experiences. Other men may have differing opinions also based on their personal experiences.

1. I believe this is true for almost every woman who has read this book or is familiar with it's topic. I have read the book "Wild at Heart" and it portrays all men as being hunters, fishermen, extreme sports entusiasts, rock climbers and so-on-and-so-forth. It's almost as if he's saying, "If you don't kill and eat bear you're not a real man." I didn't like the book because I don't fit it's generalization of men. Women I have spoken with who have read the book think that it is accurate for all men, but it isn't. Many men will fit into Eldridges categorizations, but not all. Certainly not me. Women who take this book to heart for all men end up expecting too much out of men and become dissapointed when all of them don't fit.

2. In my experience, this is true for every woman I have ever gone on a date with. Women have fallen for the Hollywood stereotype that every bad boy needs only the love of a good woman to turn him around. And they are much too willing to sacrifice safety for excitement, believing that after the wedding vows are said, this bad boy will settle into life as a Ward Cleaver clone. It is unrealistic.

3. Some, not all. I have seen many christian women who are very attentive to their wardrobe and their personal appearance. There are also some who don't know how to dress or seem to care. But I do believe that it is true, as a rule, that unbelieving women pay closer attention to this area of their lives than believing women. It's almost as if they believe that it is a sin to look attractive.

I think the weight issue is the same for both groups.

4.Yes, I have a very real fear of divorce. I'm single, but should I ever get married, it will much too easy for a wife to divorce me if I don't happen to live up to her expectations.

5. True. The single christian women I know do not give out any clear signal, one way or another. They don't respond when you send out a signal of you own either and you end up in the friends category almost immediately, especially if you're a "nice-guy'. Some are down-right rude about it. Many christian women even give off the signal, "Stay away, leave me alone, don't come close, I want nothing to do with you."

6. Agree. The same for christian men for that matter.

7. Exactly, right on the nose. The one time I dated a girl from my church, people were asking us when the wedding date was and we hadn't even had a second date yet. The pressure was so great that she refused to go out with me again and I wound up fielding questions about what I did to drive her away and being accused of being shallow for "...letting a great catch like her get away..." This girl ended up marrying a non-christian and is now a divorced mother of two.

In my opinion, the author of your book got everything right.



rgod -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/28/2008 1:21:26 PM)

Thanks Pauley - I really appreciate your responses.

quote:

I have read the book "Wild at Heart" and it portrays all men as being hunters, fishermen, extreme sports entusiasts, rock climbers and so-on-and-so-forth. It's almost as if he's saying, "If you don't kill and eat bear you're not a real man."


I've not read "Wild at Heart" but it sounds like a tall order, particularly if these are not your areas of interest. There are so many wonderful men out there that don't fit the "hunt 'er down and shoot 'em" kind of model. I feel badly that so many women are overlooking guys like this.

quote:

I have seen many christian women who are very attentive to their wardrobe and their personal appearance. There are also some who don't know how to dress or seem to care. But I do believe that it is true, as a rule, that unbelieving women pay closer attention to this area of their lives than believing women. It's almost as if they believe that it is a sin to look attractive.


I've been very guilty of this in the past. I've been trying to change and have been having positive feedback on this although I still have a ways to go. With clothes, sometimes it is a bit difficult to know where to draw the line. For example, some of the styles that are in the store are cut for women who are not curvy (it is designed to GIVE them curves). Well, if you have curves, is hard to wear those clothes without projecting an image that you don't want to project - so it is a bit tough Christian women because we want to look attractive but modest at the same time. It is really important that we Christian women spend time on our appearance - hair, nails, clothes, weight, makeup. Great feedback on this point.

quote:

Yes, I have a very real fear of divorce. I'm single, but should I ever get married, it will much too easy for a wife to divorce me if I don't happen to live up to her expectations.


I would have never guessed this if I hadn't read the book, although I've heard more than one man talk about this. What is it about divorce that causes fear? Is it the bitterness, being separated from the family, all of a sudden having your wages evaporate, not fulfilling God's intent or something else?

quote:

True. The single christian women I know do not give out any clear signal, one way or another. They don't respond when you send out a signal of you own either and you end up in the friends category almost immediately, especially if you're a "nice-guy'. Some are down-right rude about it.


I'm so sorry that other Christian women have been rude to you when you've approached them. I think not having to initiate can make people insensitive.

quote:

Exactly, right on the nose. The one time I dated a girl from my church, people were asking us when the wedding date was and we hadn't even had a second date yet. The pressure was so great that she refused to go out with me again and I wound up fielding questions about what I did to drive her away and being accused of being shallow for "...letting a great catch like her get away..." This girl ended up marrying a non-christian and is now a divorced mother of two.


Wow, I'm sorry to hear about this experience. I could see how that would make you want to avoid asking out women in the church. I've been wondering about this ... how can Christian singles really get together if every little bit of interest is blown out of proportion? I wonder how it was done in years past?

Pauley - thanks for your replies - they were very insightful. Any other guys want to chime in? I'd love to hear your thoughts too!

rgod



Pauley464 -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/28/2008 2:04:37 PM)

quote:

What is it about divorce that causes fear? Is it the bitterness, being separated from the family, all of a sudden having your wages evaporate, not fulfilling God's intent or something else?



The fear is all of that and more. 'Losing the love of someone you had hoped to spend your life with.' 'Dealing with another rejection.' And it's worse if there are children because the courts are largely prejudiced in favor of the mother where custody is concerned no matter what kind of mother she is.



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/30/2008 11:03:45 AM)

i really don't have experience with many of these questions but i too am curious of what people say. do you recommend the book rgod? (i'm guessing it must be good if it's 4am and you're reading it :)



vajent -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/30/2008 12:50:07 PM)

Let me preface this post by saying that I think much of why we don't know 'where all the good men have gone' is because we've largely lost a stable definition of what a 'good man' is. It seems a little nuts, but I'm not at all sure that the meaning of a 'good man' is a given and simply understood by either men or women. To my mind, that's the only real explanation for why a book like Eldredge's was such a hit. If everybody was fairly clear about this, a good bit of what's being sold in Christian bookstores these days regarding relationships and gender wouldn't be there.

I will echo the fear of divorce thing, but from a slightly different angle. I know a number of guys who pay attention to divorce statistics that pretty consistently tell us that women are the primary initiators of divorce these days. For folks like me, the divorce fear is not really rooted in negative financial fallout. It's more about child custody issues, and the creeping fear that women are increasingly preferring to be on their own and not 'tied down' to a husband and family. Now, how much of that is reality versus what's regularly reinforced in our entertainment culture is a very good question to explore. But from my perspective at least, there's little doubt that the entertainment culture is strongly promoting the idea that women pursuing individual happiness and fulfillment justifies an awful lot, including divorce for frivolous reasons. Men are not immune from being influenced by this, and being a little skittish as a result.

The nice guy vs. bad boy thing is a common complaint among men, and some of it is legitimate. Again, this goes back to trying to define what a 'good man' is today. I think a lot of 'good men' are concerned that they are not exciting enough, and that their wives (or future wives) will get bored with them. Speaking for myself, I know I periodically fear this.

One last thing. Another problem that has really developed in the last 20 years or so has been the complete explosion of options and choices. This is true in the grocery store, the television, and even church ministries. A real multiple choice and customized mentality has developed from having so many choices, and I happen to think this mentality has gotten into the thinking of many people regarding relationships. It's one thing to customize your kitchen - it's another thing to bring that mentality to bear on relationships, but I think that's what's happening. The result is that people are becoming VERY picky about their mate possibilities, and are losing the ability to discern between relationship stuff that really is important vs. stuff that's not especially important. I mean, there are things about my wife that I would change if I could, and there are things about me that my wife would change if she could. Some change is good, because we can grow together. But having that as some kind of overriding mission statement of relationship is not biblical, because it doesn't require us to 'bear one another's burdens' and persevere with each other. My wife and I are in sync on the important things, and this enables us to put the lesser things in proper context. Our marriage is not a 'consumer/product' arrangement where each of us gets to 'have it our way', to paraphrase Burger King. But I think the Burger King mentality is alive and well in how people approach relationships, and it's a recipe for trouble.



gengwall -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/30/2008 2:07:45 PM)

Read "IMO" only as well for my comments.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rgod
1. Women expect too much from men spiritually (real men are rough around the edges). From her research, she said that a lot of men complained about "Wild at Heart" because it contains an unattainable goal. She also said that some men were really creeped out when a woman said something like "Jesus is my mate." (I love the Lord myself, but was never really said that - I'm not knocking anyone - but I do believe that God made us male and female and gave Adam Eve for a reason ...) Do you agree or disagree?

I have read WAH and although I have some quiblles with Eldridge, it does portray what lies at the sole of most, if not all men. I think what makes men, men, is primarily physiological, chemical, and psychological. Culture, environment, and upbringing may alter behavior, but it can't change the core. Having said that, I do not think that men are more or less spiritual than women, but that they express their spirituality in line with their masculinity. I have no problem with how women express their spirituality (i.e. "Jesus is my mate") even though it is quite different than how I do. That makes life interesting and demonstrates how men and women are equal, but not the same. As far as women expecting too much from men, that may be true, but it is because those women don't understand how men express their spirituality. If you expect a man to think, act, emote, and communicate like a woman in any matter, let alone spiritual matters, you are indeed expecting too much.

quote:

2. Too many women want bad boys and bypass the nice men. Yes or no?

I think there is some research to back this up. There is also a classic "Cheers" episode which portrays the phenomenon. I know it was true for my college roommates girlfriend (he was a bad, bad boy). On the other hand, I consider myself a nice guy, as does my wife, and I found a mate. So, I am not sure where the percentages really lie.

quote:

3. Christian women don't keep themselves attractive enough and many of them are overweight. Too many aren't dressing up to the standard that men see everyday. She didn't say that men wanted a model wife - but rather that they wanted someone who cares about her appearance. But if she's slender ... that doesn't hurt.
Although I believe this to be true, it is one of my pet peeves with men, especially Christian men. Men do think this, but it is ungodly to do so.

quote:

4. You have a very real fear of divorce (can you say half?)
Hmmmm...I don't fear divorce even though I don't consider it a viable option.

quote:

5. Christian women are too self absorbed, shallow, or just want to be friends. Or to put it another way, they don't give out clear signals and want to put you into the friend zone too quickly - particularly if you are a nice guy. Or they don't respond if you initiate and can sometimes be lacking in courtesy.
This relates a lot to point 2. I don't think that women are too self-absorbed, I just think they are different than men. Men are more direct, mostly out of necessity because we are not nearly as intuitive or as good of communicators as women are. It doesn't mean women are wrong (or men, for that matter), just that we are different. I experienced this "I just want to be friends" rejection many times in my dating years, but it wasn't because the women were shallow, etc. it was because they weren't interested in me. Too bad, so sad. That wasn't every woman, and I finally found one who appreciated my "nice guy" personna. So, in the long run, I would never say this is a complaint of mine as much as it is a realization of the realities of relationships.

quote:

6. It's hard to tell Christian from Non-Christian women these days - because they are doing the same thing their worldly counterparts do (living with people, having premarital sex, etc.) Agree or disagree?
Well, this certainly isn't a gender specific accusation. It's just as hard to tell the Christian men from the non-Christians, and the Christian couples from the non-CHristians (as divorce rates in the church attest to). SO I hardly think men can claim this one as their personal complaint. There is, of course, truth to it. But no more so for women than for men.

quote:

7. It is tough to pursue a woman, particularly in church, because if you date her casually - everything thinks you are an item. If you decide she is not the one and try to date another girl, then you get labeled as a player.
Probably true. Thankfully, I never had to go through this.

The chief complaint I hear from men, via many books, discussions, and seminars, (including Wild At Heart), is simply that they are being emmasculated; that their masculine identity is being degraded and discarded and that they are expected to think and act like women. Most of what you see in the statements above can probably be boiled down to that one issue. If people simply understood the natural differences between men and women in how they interact with others, process information, problem solve, communicate, and perceive the world around them, we wouldn't have nearly as much "stuff" to complain about in our inter-gender relations.



bigfrank -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/30/2008 4:16:06 PM)

Sometimes I get the notion that women are blatantly keeping me at arm's distance, but my problem seems to be that the more I get to know someone, the less I like them. I notice or find little things that bug me. Another problem is that I keep getting myself into these situations where I know that someone is interested in me, but will, for whatever reason, refuse to commit to a steady relationship even when I make my best moves. I'm not sure if they just want attention without commitment or what. It's just kind of frustrating to spend time and effort pursuing someone and have it end up being a lost cause.



rgod -> RE: Questions for you .... (4/30/2008 11:51:27 PM)

quote:

i really don't have experience with many of these questions but i too am curious of what people say. do you recommend the book rgod? (i'm guessing it must be good if it's 4am and you're reading it :)


iwillfearnoevil - I'm not quite sure yet. I was up at 4 am reading it, but primarily because I finished writing a paper and turned it in at 3 am and was way too wound up to sleep. My one problem was that the poll might not have been a representative sampling of the Christian single population - I didn't see evidence of it, which is why I wanted to ask a few questions about it here. I did feel the women's section was dead on - but I'm still in the process of reading it (I just skimmed last time). So, I can't recommend or not recommend it just yet - I do find it to be quite interesting though. I'll let you know later.

quote:

But from my perspective at least, there's little doubt that the entertainment culture is strongly promoting the idea that women pursuing individual happiness and fulfillment justifies an awful lot, including divorce for frivolous reasons. Men are not immune from being influenced by this, and being a little skittish as a result.

...

But I think the Burger King mentality is alive and well in how people approach relationships, and it's a recipe for trouble.


vajent - thanks a lot for your post. Having grown up in the 70s and 80s, this idea of individual happiness and fulfillment of being the overriding concern is something that is the default view (though not the biblical one). I know that I need to be on guard for this - but I had no idea that this came across as being self-absorbed. I think this is helping me to understand the "self-absorbed" comment that was made by the author. You articulated the issues with this view very well. However, I have seen the Burger King mentality very clearly and agree that it is troubling. It is almost as if people are disposable ... if there is a flaw, order another one (and throw the existing one in the trash). Burger King is a good metaphor I think.

quote:

As far as women expecting too much from men, that may be true, but it is because those women don't understand how men express their spirituality. If you expect a man to think, act, emote, and communicate like a woman in any matter, let alone spiritual matters, you are indeed expecting too much.

...

The chief complaint I hear from men, via many books, discussions, and seminars, (including Wild At Heart), is simply that they are being emmasculated; that their masculine identity is being degraded and discarded and that they are expected to think and act like women. Most of what you see in the statements above can probably be boiled down to that one issue. If people simply understood the natural differences between men and women in how they interact with others, process information, problem solve, communicate, and perceive the world around them, we wouldn't have nearly as much "stuff" to complain about in our inter-gender relations.


gengwall - I like that you raised the point that women and men do communicate differently. I was thinking about someone that I know who is upset that her husband never reads the bible. Actually, he doesn't read anything because he had a very poor education and doesn't read well (it takes him a very long time to read a short paragraph of information). But he does listen to television preachers and he does practice what he hears. I'm not saying that men don't read, but here is a difference in communication style on an individual level. If we look at it at the gender level, I think this is significant.

I totally agree that something in this society (whether it be some aspects of feminism or something else) is attempting to emasculate men and to marginalize maleness so that it is only expressed sexually or in terms of violence. If I wanted to learn a bit more about how men solve problems, process information, etc. can you recommend some things that I can read? I can of course, look at male relatives, but it would be nice to be able to read something about this. Excellent points.

quote:

It's just kind of frustrating to spend time and effort pursuing someone and have it end up being a lost cause.


bigfrank - I'm sorry to hear about your frustrations in your dating relationships. Why do you think that you are in this pattern? Can you see what kind of gets the ball rolling, or any commonalities in the women that you've pursued or dated (or maybe your approach)? I like that you brought up this new angle since it wasn't really covered by the book. It gives me something else to think about!

Thanks everyone! I love these responses. Keep it coming!

rgod



gengwall -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/1/2008 11:29:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rgod
I totally agree that something in this society (whether it be some aspects of feminism or something else) is attempting to emasculate men and to marginalize maleness so that it is only expressed sexually or in terms of violence. If I wanted to learn a bit more about how men solve problems, process information, etc. can you recommend some things that I can read? I can of course, look at male relatives, but it would be nice to be able to read something about this. Excellent points.

Absolutely! There are several books I would recommend, and for the most part, they are quick reads.

To begin with, "For Women Only: What You Need to Know about the Inner Lives of Men" by Shaunti Feldhahn should be required reading for every woman who is either married or is in a season of life where marriage is a possibility. (There is a "For Men Only" alternative so us guys can understand you gals.)

Couples books that deal with gender differences, the problems they cause, and ways to deal with them, include:

"Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs" and "Cracking the Communication Code: The Secret to Speaking Your Mate's Language", both by Emerson Eggerichs. These are written from a Christian perspective. Importantly, the concept of "respect" is the least understood and most dismissed concept by women in their relationships with men. The loss of this concept and attitude is the most destructive result of the emmasculization of men and derission of maleness which has occured not only in society but most disturbingly, in the church. These books are hard for women to read (my wife struggled greatly with anger and resistance when reading about respect) but that is why it is so important for women to work through this material. Until women understand what respect is from man's perspective and how important and life giving it is for men, we will never be able to get along effectively and still be true to our genders. (Note - these are the only "long" reads of the lot.)

A great companion to the Eggerichs books is a book by secular (I presume) authors who explore the actual physiological brain differences which result in the perceptable differences discussed in the two books above. Although this is a purely secular book, it is amazing how much it corroberates the Christian perspective. Two caveats - the authors take an exclusively evolutionary approach to the development of these differences. I simply mentally substituted "God created" whenever they speak of something having evolved in the human species. Also, they have a chapter on the biology (especially fetal developmental biology) behind homosexuality. I simply skipped that chapter. Anyway, the book is "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps" by Allan Pease, Barbara Pease, and Trevor Dolby. And yes, it is as whitty as the title suggests. This book, above all the others, will help you with your goal to understand "how men solve problems, process information, etc.".

There are several books that are directed at men (like "Wild At Heart") but may help if you are looking for insight into the male psychie.

"No More Christian Nice Guy: When Being Nice Instead of Good Hurts Men, Women and Children" by Paul Coughlin
"The Samson Syndrome: What You Can Learn from the Baddest Boy in the Bible" by Mark Atteberry

I recommend these two books together as they somewhat balance each other. I disagree with Paul Coughlin on some points the same as I do with Eldredge in WAH, but the Sampson book helps balance those perspectives by showing where manliness can turn into destructive machismo.

"The Silence of Adam", by Dr. Larry Crabb, Don Michael Hudson, and Al Andrews
Simply a great book. Helps to explain the falls influence on maleness.

"Point Man: How a Man Can Lead His Family" by Steve Farrar. Simply the best guide I have ever read on manly husbandship and fatherhood. even if you don't read it, give it to the man in your life.

And some more books for women to help them understand their men:

"In Search of the Proverbs 31 Man: The One God Approves and a Woman Wants" by Michelle Mckinney Hammond. Do you want to get past all the nice guy vs. bad guy hype - this is a great start.

"Married But Not Engaged: Why Men Check Out and What You Can Do to Create the Intimacy You Desire" by Paul and Sandy Coughlin. Another book by Paul Caughlin, this time joined by his wife. I am about half way through this one. It is directed primarily toward women and is useful for both the married woman with a disengaged husband, and a single woman who wants to avoid ending up with a disengaged husband. It builds on many of the principles of "No More Christian Nice Guy".

For full disclosure, I should note that there are two general issues around which I disagree with the solutions proposed by almost all authors I have read. Those issues are confrontation (with bullies, primarily) and the priority of female attractiveness in relationships (which you alluded to in your original post).

Specifically, I do not agree with the proactive, violent, trashing out approach most authors support as the "manly" response to bullying, physical threats, and protection of the weak. I truly believe that such an approach returns evil for evil and violates the "turn the other cheek" directive of Christ. That does not mean that I don't think men should exhert their power physically in those situations if required. But my personal approach is always a defensive and negotiative one, not an offensive one.

And although I agree with most authors in the reality that physical attractiveness is a priority for men, I don't believe that it has to be or that such a priority is godly. As such, I bristle at any suggestion that maintaining attractiveness is some kind of requirement for a woman to be godly or that there is any justification for men to discard their women because they don't maintain some standard of beauty. Scripture makes it clear not only that beauty does not last forever (Proverbs 31:30) but that we are to adore and be captivated (to turn an Eldredge phrase) by our wives at all times, regardless of the natural degradation that time, gravity, and physiology inflict on their bodies (Proverbs 5:19)

I just had to add that lest you think that I agree with absolutely everything every author writes. But by and large, these are really excellent books and these few quibbles do not prevent me from recommending them highly.



rgod -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/1/2008 1:23:35 PM)

gengwall,

Thank you so much!!! I've read the Shaunti Feldham book a year or two ago and found it to be very very powerful and eye opening. I'll probably take another look at it. Thank you also for the other books. Your comment on respect really struck a chord with me.

quote:

Importantly, the concept of "respect" is the least understood and most dismissed concept by women in their relationships with men. The loss of this concept and attitude is the most destructive result of the emmasculization of men and derission of maleness which has occured not only in society but most disturbingly, in the church.


I know of one marriage where the wife would tear down her husband regularly and also in the eyes of her children. After she got saved, the Lord got her attention about that, and she started treating him with respect, speaking highly of him, and really honoring him. All the while, he had been treating her badly - I think they both just got into this pattern and couldn't get out of it. Well, it took a long time of her doing this (years actually) before he let down his guard and could relax around her - but it did happen. And it freed him to really behave as a man; it released something in him. He also got saved as a result of her witness and her prayers. He became so tender towards her, protective, loving - today it is a totally different marriage. Amazing, amazing. And it was a good object lesson for me.

Also, as I am very interested in cognitive science and have just recently been looking into neurophysiology a little bit (I don't know a lot, just a very little bit), I think that I'll really be interested in Eggerich's book. The others sound good too -- so I have my reading list cut out for me for the near future!

I really appreciate you taking so much time to give me these thoughtful and detailed answers. Thank you!

rgod



gengwall -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/1/2008 1:48:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rgod

gengwall,

Thank you so much!!! I've read the Shaunti Feldham book a year or two ago and found it to be very very powerful and eye opening. I'll probably take another look at it.
It is an amazing book, as is "For Men Only". I read "For Women Only" just to see if she got men right and I can truly say IMO that she nailed it. It was like I was reading "For Women Only About gengwall". You probably didn't catch it if you haven't read "Love and Respect" but Eggerichs' ideas are interwoven in the questions and conclusions Feldham articulates.

quote:

I know of one marriage where the wife would tear down her husband regularly and also in the eyes of her children. After she got saved, the Lord got her attention about that, and she started treating him with respect, speaking highly of him, and really honoring him. All the while, he had been treating her badly - I think they both just got into this pattern and couldn't get out of it. Well, it took a long time of her doing this (years actually) before he let down his guard and could relax around her - but it did happen. And it freed him to really behave as a man; it released something in him. He also got saved as a result of her witness and her prayers. He became so tender towards her, protective, loving - today it is a totally different marriage. Amazing, amazing. And it was a good object lesson for me.
This is exactly the downward spiral that Eggerichs details, and, in their recovery as a couple, exemplifies the "energizing cycle" that can spiral upward in a relationship when at least one party decides to get off the "crazy cycle".

quote:

Also, as I am very interested in cognitive science and have just recently been looking into neurophysiology a little bit (I don't know a lot, just a very little bit), I think that I'll really be interested in Eggerich's book. The others sound good too -- so I have my reading list cut out for me for the near future!
You will love the "Why Men Don't Listen..." book then because of all the proposals and conclusions are derived from the most current brain scan studies.



buckifn -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/1/2008 5:00:23 PM)

quote:

I'm using a lot of her wording which can come across a bit harsh ... but I am curious to know what you guys think about these statements.


I think anyone that puts all men or all women in one category isn't worth the time it takes to read such material.

I rely on the Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me and that has always included relationships too. I'd suggest that beyond any book on the market these days.



LCannon -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/2/2008 12:53:09 AM)

1. The notion of 'Jesus as mate(consort)' is ludicrous. Closeness(as one; man and woman), yes, in obedience and vulnerability.
2. I suppose some women imagine playing with fire too or touching a live wire! Prudence says, 'Fool me once, shame on them, fool me twice, shame on me.'
3. First impression is hard to ignore like a bad odor or a sweet smell.
4. If 'it's' meant to be it will be but I'm not desperate!
5. Expectations leave us wanting or panting. The facts on the ground are usually much more reliable.
6. Sometimes there's a fine line between priority and substance. Wanting to be so rarely is a substitute for obedience.
7. Who's business is that? Just don't create a false impression.



bigfrank -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/6/2008 2:47:03 AM)

quote:

Why do you think that you are in this pattern? Can you see what kind of gets the ball rolling, or any commonalities in the women that you've pursued or dated (or maybe your approach)? I like that you brought up this new angle since it wasn't really covered by the book. It gives me something else to think about!


I would think it would be the luck of the draw. I have developed some tactics for "my approach" which may or may not put me in the "brother" category faster than I would like. I'm not sure. I think that it may be more that I haven't found the right woman yet. I've found many good ones, but maybe not the right one. I like to think that I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, which may put me in the "brother" category, I don't know. I usually make contact a few times before getting a phone number or something, then I might casually ask to study together, do that a few more times, then see where it goes from there. I don't really do movies that much, but I have had a few dates for supper or to banquets and things.
I have learned a few things. Women do not realize what they do to men. Perfect example: Three weeks ago, I asked a special young woman to be my girlfriend. I got her pretty good, she was speechless, but that's a different story. Anyway, when I saw that she was having trouble making the decision, I gave her some time to think about it. She was reluctant because we would spend the summer apart, and she would be leaving 3rd quarter next year. We hung out a lot after that, but then it kind of died down a little bit. I started to realize that it probably wasn't going to happen, so I decided to work at moving on. I emailed her, which I know sounds lame, but I find its the best way to communicate exactly what you want to say, and she agrees. I let her know that in my waiting, I felt like I should hope that she would accept, and yet with every passing day, I figured that the chance of that happening decreased. You kind of have to hope in that situation because if you give up then that probably lowers your chances significantly. So she wrote back saying that it would probably be best if we didn't get into this kind of thing now, which is something that I can appreciate and accept, but she took a really long time to do it. She didn't realize that I was hoping because I kind of had to be optimistic, and the more my hope got raised the farther it had to fall, which is harder to deal with. She didn't realize that it would be much easier for me to take rejection straight up, than it would a while later.
Delaying the inevitable is not good in these situations. But this is unfortunately the kind of behavior I almost expect. It happened to me before this last one too. She gave every indication that she was interested in me, always smiling and paying attention and things, but turns out she wasn't really interested. Can't I just get a straight answer? Just a few musings from an observing 20 yo male.



gengwall -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/6/2008 10:12:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigfrank

Perfect example: Three weeks ago...
Delaying the inevitable is not good in these situations. But this is unfortunately the kind of behavior I almost expect. It happened to me before this last one too. She gave every indication that she was interested in me, always smiling and paying attention and things, but turns out she wasn't really interested. Can't I just get a straight answer? Just a few musings from an observing 20 yo male.

Lol - aren't the different ways that males and females go about things so fascinating and frustrating. I thank God for my wife's "differentness" every day, but on rare occassions, I look heavenward and scream "what were you thinking!?!"



gengwall -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/12/2008 10:44:26 AM)

I would add "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura to my list above. Be prepared to be challenged about everything you thought you knew (or your mother or girlfriends have told you) about having a happy relationship with your man.



rgod -> RE: Questions for you .... (5/13/2008 9:13:15 AM)

I must apologize up front for being such a poor moderator. I've been checking in this thread, but haven't posted until now.

quote:

Original: Bigfrank
I would think it would be the luck of the draw. I have developed some tactics for "my approach" which may or may not put me in the "brother" category faster than I would like. I'm not sure. I think that it may be more that I haven't found the right woman yet. I've found many good ones, but maybe not the right one. I like to think that I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, which may put me in the "brother" category, I don't know. ... I have learned a few things. Women do not realize what they do to men.


It certainly does sound like the luck of the draw. Or actually, that you've not met the right woman yet. You mentioned that you were 20 - when you said some of what you have said suddenly made a lot of sense to me. Some (but definitely not all) of the women who are your age might not yet be ready to appreciate a "brother." But not all. And trust me, that will shortly change. I pray that God will grant you a wonderful wife who will be a blessing to you.

quote:

I think anyone that puts all men or all women in one category isn't worth the time it takes to read such material.

I rely on the Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me and that has always included relationships too. I'd suggest that beyond any book on the market these days.


buckifn, thanks for your comments. I'm not sure if I represented the book correctly, but I don't think that her intent was to say that every single man felt a certain way or every single woman felt a certain way. Rather, she was trying to address common misconceptions that many Christian men and women have about one another. I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is to be our guide in all things.

lcannon- thanks for your thoughts and comments. I especially like this one:
quote:

If 'it's' meant to be it will be but I'm not desperate!


I can really relate.

And gengwall - thanks for the additional book recommendation! I appreciate your insight.



Page: [1]



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI