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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 1:47:34 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
because God foreknows an event doesnt mean that God willed the event, however i know that we wont come to an agreement on that point. john_mark, I am trying to understand your position on this point. If God foreknows an event that is counter to His will, and does nothing to stop it; then either He is unable to stop such event, rendering Him a weak god. Or, by not stopping the event in His sovereignty, He would thereby be willing (ordaining) that it should take place in order to serve a greater purpose.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 2:31:47 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
because God foreknows an event doesnt mean that God willed the event, however i know that we wont come to an agreement on that point. john_mark, I am trying to understand your position on this point. If God foreknows an event that is counter to His will, and does nothing to stop it; then either He is unable to stop such event, rendering Him a weak god. Or, by not stopping the event in His sovereignty, He would thereby be willing (ordaining) that it should take place in order to serve a greater purpose.
what i am driving at is the origin of adam's sin. did it originate in God's heart or adam's heart?
sin originates outside of God in my understanding of scripture. God foreknew that adam would sin and allowed it. God was fully aware of adam's sin before He created adam, but the idea to sin was born in adam's heart not God's. God allowing adam's sin to take place is a decision based on adam's sin.
the other side of the argument is that God created adam with the purpose to sin. that would mean that adam was created with a nature inclined towards sin, a sin nature.
let me use a piece of scripture to illustrate a liitle more
jeremiah 1
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
as i read this passage i understand that God appointed(willed) jeremiah to be a prophet.
that is different then saying that God allowed jeremiah to be prophet. hopefully you see the difference.
did God appoint adam to sin, or did He allow adam to sin?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 3:41:41 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
did God appoint adam to sin, or did He allow Adam to sin? I think this a great question Mark,but I don't think we're ready for the answer.We still feel the need to be God's attorney,and see him in a way that is acceptable to our sensibilities.
The answer to this question is confirmed by the whole of scripture,with very little effort,we just don't want to see it.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 3:50:39 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
The answer to this question is confirmed by the whole of scripture,with very little effort,we just don't want to see it.
agreed
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 3:53:58 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
quote:
Scripture does not say that God hardened their hearts from the beginning nor does it say at what age they began their rebellion.
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you.- Exodus 7:3-4a (emphasis mine)
The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said. - Exodus 8:19
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. - Exodus 9:12
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them - Exodus 10:1
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. - Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go - Exodus 10:27
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. - Exodus 11:10
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this. -Exodus 14:4
The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. - Exodus 14:8
Do you think the inspired writer was out to make a point here?
One more thing....
quote:
That is the punishment that God decided to dole out to them after they had already spent years in rebellion hardening their own hearts.
Do you really mean after here? As in God didn't know that they would sin/be as wicked as they were until after they were?
If you read the entire story of Pharoah and the egyptians you would see that Pharoah hardened his own heart long before God stepped in and hardened it. The same thing with Eli's sons.
IMO just because God knows about something does not mean that He predestined it and I know that we will never agree on that point.
God is able to be ALL things. He is able to foreknow and be all powerful and still allow people to make their own choices and things to go the directions that our choices take us. That, I believe, is the true mystery of God.
_____________________________
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 5:48:05 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
God is able to be ALL things. He is able to foreknow and be all powerful and still allow people to make their own choices and things to go the directions that our choices take us. That, I believe, is the true mystery of God. SD, I think there is a misconception here… I do not think that Broken would disagree with you on the issue of people making their own choices. People do make their own choices. However the point in which you will probably part ways is in determining just how free those choices are.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/6/2008 1:43:07 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
because God foreknows an event doesnt mean that God willed the event, however i know that we wont come to an agreement on that point.
He doesn't just foreknow an event, he foreknows it knowing exactly what we (sinful humans) will do and what he will do in response. Moreover, God foreknows knowing what he will do to prohibit us from doing anything he does not desire and knowing how he will hem us in or let us loose...all according to his plans. But the point is is that he sees it all in advance before he does anything, including creation which he knew would need a Savior to redeem.
quote:
the other side of the argument is that God created adam with the purpose to sin. that would mean that adam was created with a nature inclined towards sin, a sin nature.
No, the answer is neither of these propositions. God created Adam without sin and with a nature inclined towards God (see Romans 5). You forget that God permitted Satan to deceive Adam. And so God does not tempt anyone, each one is tempted by their own evil desires just as James says.
quote:
did God appoint adam to sin, or did He allow adam to sin?
Yes. He allowed Adam to sin for a greater glory on the other side of that sin.
< Message edited by BrokenMessenger -- 5/6/2008 2:30:24 AM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/6/2008 2:24:13 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
If you read the entire story of Pharoah and the egyptians you would see that Pharoah hardened his own heart long before God stepped in and hardened it. The same thing with Eli's sons.
Well, that may be your opinion but I see no Scripture to support it. Like you said, if you read the entire story of Pharoah and the Egyptians you would read the following which completely destroys your theory.
For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. - Exodus 9:15-16
"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. -Romans 9:12-18 (emphasis mine)
quote:
IMO just because God knows about something does not mean that He predestined it and I know that we will never agree on that point.
We won't as long as it is just your opinion.
The Scriptures state over and over and over again that God does not just "know something" he knows all things, including how he will act. That's called planning. Otherwise, if he doesn't know how he will act, he could not have foreknowledge.
quote:
God is able to be ALL things. He is able to foreknow and be all powerful and still allow people to make their own choices and things to go the directions that our choices take us. That, I believe, is the true mystery of God.
It may be what you believe but it isn't how he describes himself. God can indeed do anything, but his Word clearly states that his will always trumps ours and that is hand is always steering and directing according to what he wants, not what we want.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/6/2008 9:21:05 AM
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justajerk
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quote:
It may be what you believe but it isn't how he describes himself. God can indeed do anything, but his Word clearly states that his will always trumps ours and that is hand is always steering and directing according to what he wants, not what we want. Isn't the desire of the redeemed to glorify God? (yes we often fall to our fleshly desires -see Romans 7), but through sanctification our will becomes more in line with His will. While on the other hand, the unredeemed seek not the things of God, and one might say they also seek after their own desires albeit never finding satisfaction? (Yet, all the while God is sovereign).
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/6/2008 10:28:26 AM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
because God foreknows an event doesnt mean that God willed the event, however i know that we wont come to an agreement on that point.
He doesn't just foreknow an event, he foreknows it knowing exactly what we (sinful humans) will do and what he will do in response. Moreover, God foreknows knowing what he will do to prohibit us from doing anything he does not desire and knowing how he will hem us in or let us loose...all according to his plans. But the point is is that he sees it all in advance before he does anything, including creation which he knew would need a Savior to redeem.
i agree with you
quote:
the other side of the argument is that God created adam with the purpose to sin. that would mean that adam was created with a nature inclined towards sin, a sin nature.
No, the answer is neither of these propositions. God created Adam without sin and with a nature inclined towards God (see Romans 5). You forget that God permitted Satan to deceive Adam. And so God does not tempt anyone, each one is tempted by their own evil desires just as James says.
i agree with you here
quote:
did God appoint adam to sin, or did He allow adam to sin?
Yes. He allowed Adam to sin for a greater glory on the other side of that sin.
not sure i agree here because yes would seem to imply that your saying God both appointed adam to sin and allowed him to sin. why would it be neccessary for God to allow adam to do what God has appointed Him to do?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/6/2008 4:08:54 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross. - Acts 2:23
Thank you for showing me that verse!
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 1:37:12 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
why would it be neccessary for God to allow adam to do what God has appointed Him to do?
Well, it wasn't "necessary" for him to do anything for us at all, let alone bother with creating us. But since I don't think that is what you meant by "necessary for God to allow..." let me just say "I don't know." Or to borrow from Paul who borrowed from one of the ancients: Who has known the mind of the Lord that we may instruct him? However, there is a terrible beauty in the thought that out of all the evil and moral chaos in the world, God reaps sons and daughters from it. From a world he hates, filled with things he hates, and humans who hate him, he turns some of them into sons and daughters to live with him forever. I find that delightful and amazing.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 1:38:31 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
Thank you for showing me this quote.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 1:54:37 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
From a world he hates, filled with things he hates, and humans who hate him, he turns some of them into sons and daughters to live with him forever. I find that delightful and amazing.
There's only one "little" problem with this warped theology. God DOES NOT hate the world.
Proof? "For God SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED" (Jn. 3:16,17).
Do these verses say that God hates the world, or do they say the exact opposite? Do these verses say that God would have the whole world in Hell, or do they say that God would have the whole world saved?
It is a terrible thing to make God a liar.
To revert to the OP, both God's will and man's will work side by side with no violence to either. Man can never override God's perfect will, but God allows man to make foolish and evil choices, as well as good and acceptable choices, within His permissive will. This is the true glory and sovereignty of God. It is indeed a Divine Mystery, not to be grasped by vain theologians.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/7/2008 2:04:25 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 3:06:12 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
God is able to be ALL things. He is able to foreknow and be all powerful and still allow people to make their own choices and things to go the directions that our choices take us. That, I believe, is the true mystery of God. SD, I think there is a misconception here… I do not think that Broken would disagree with you on the issue of people making their own choices. People do make their own choices. However the point in which you will probably part ways is in determining just how free those choices are.
Correct, we do part ways in the understanding of just 'how free' our choices are.
It says in
Acts 14:16 In the past He allowed all peoples to go their own way.
God allowing is not the same as God orchestrating, which it seems is where we differ. Some would say that if God allowed it then it must have been His will. Yet God does not will (or desire) sin. It is not God's will that children are abused, yet God allows it because to stop it would mean that those who do this type of sin would lose their free will by God 'making' them do as He wants. Even though scripture clearly says in Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. There are still little ones who perish under the hand of someone wicked though it is not God's will or desire that they do.
Free will is a very integral, precious gift that God does not take away from mankind. Even though God foreknew the trouble we'd get into giving us free will, He still chose to give it to us as He wanted a creation that loved Him freely. Yet He allows men to 'go their own way' though He definately intervenes because of the prayers of the saints.
Scripture also says that it's not God's will that men perish, yet men still perish.
2Pe 3:9
...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
I believe it is extremely rare where God steps in and overrules someone's free will. In the couple cases in scripture, those people had already hardened their own hearts and God used them by hardening their hearts even more completely.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 5/7/2008 3:16:02 PM >
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 3:31:19 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
God is able to be ALL things. He is able to foreknow and be all powerful and still allow people to make their own choices and things to go the directions that our choices take us. That, I believe, is the true mystery of God. SD, I think there is a misconception here… I do not think that Broken would disagree with you on the issue of people making their own choices. People do make their own choices. However the point in which you will probably part ways is in determining just how free those choices are.
Correct, we do part ways in the understanding of just 'how free' our choices are.
It says in
Acts 14:16 In the past He allowed all peoples to go their own way.
God allowing is not the same as God orchestrating, which it seems is where we differ. Some would say that if God allowed it then it must have been His will. Yet God does not will (or desire) sin. It is not God's will that children are abused, yet God allows it because to stop it would mean that those who do this type of sin would lose their free will by God 'making' them do as He wants. Even though scripture clearly says in Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. There are still little ones who perish under the hand of someone wicked though it is not God's will or desire that they do.
Free will is a very integral, precious gift that God does not take away from mankind. Even though God foreknew the trouble we'd get into giving us free will, He still chose to give it to us as He wanted a creation that loved Him freely. Yet He allows men to 'go their own way' though He definately intervenes because of the prayers of the saints.
Scripture also says that it's not God's will that men perish, yet men still perish.
2Pe 3:9
...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
I believe it is extremely rare where God steps in and overrules someone's free will. In the couple cases in scripture, those people had already hardened their own hearts and God used them by hardening their hearts even more completely.
Very well put. God knows everything that is going to happen. But He does not force people to do things. However, God can place things in peoples life to highly steer them in a certain direction but the choice is always there. Just like when people become Christians unless the Holy Spirit draws you, YOU WILL NOT BE SAVED, but you can reject this. To go back a few posts for people who think that God wills certain people to sin and others to redemption. Look back at preflood earth. Why would God look down and say I am displeased with mankind, they have sin in their hearts all the time. Why would he be displeased with mankind if He willed them to be the way they are? In turn we know that He destroyed almost all of mankind except for Noah, his wife, his 3 sons, and their wives. It just doesn't match with scriptures to say he willed adam and eve to sin and will the majority of the world to sin and not chose him, and then send them to hell.
_____________________________
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. -C.S. Lewis
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 4:42:17 PM
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sunofone
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I love to see the tension between two points and then find a way to see if we can come to a place of agreement. In this case my question is what does God want us to see,or know?
I think we can all agree that he wants us to see two things:
He wants us to see himself.
He wants us to see ourselves.
If we can agree with this,then we can ask the next logical question.
How has God chosen to reveal both?
First he creates us good with a blank slate,then he gives us a law or the law.Why does he give us a law? What purpose does the law serve?Who is the law for?
The law is not just there for order or for governance.The law ultimately teaches,the law is given to address a issue that must be dealt with.
So if God gave man who was created good with a blank slate a law,why did he find it necessary to do so?
What was he trying to show us? What issue was he trying to address?
The issue and the reason why is clear.He was showing us and addressing the issue of our will.
So does that mean that our will was bad or evil? No
It's not the will of a man that God wanted to show us ,or address as being evil,rather it was the submission of our will to his that he wanted to address.
We all agree that God could have simply made us perfect incapable of sinning,yet we all realize that in order for him to do so would mean we would have no will of our own.
Clearly that is not what God wanted,for if he did, than he would have done so.
So what are we left with?
We are left with the fact that God has given us a will which we chose to exercise,because he designed us that way.
God is responsible for giving us a will that is capable of opposing his will.We are responsible for exercising our will to oppose his will.
You can't have one without the other.Our will,is Gods will because he chose to make us that way.
His will is not our will,because we chose our will over his.
So what is the point of it all?
We learned that Gods will is better and superior than our will.Our will is not bad,because we have to use our will to submit to his will.
So what did God accomplish?
He showed us the difference between us and him.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 7:15:34 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
But since I don't think that is what you meant by "necessary for God to allow..." let me just say "I don't know."
i find that when discussing the relationship between God's soveriegnty and man's freewill this is often the best answer. if someone chooses to explain the relationship i will engage their position to gain new insight, but in the end i dont know is often the answer i give myself.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 7:44:37 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
Do these verses say that God hates the world, or do they say the exact opposite? Do these verses say that God would have the whole world in Hell, or do they say that God would have the whole world saved?
It is a terrible thing to make God a liar.
Ezra, before launching your scorched earth rebuke here, maybe you should have asked me what I meant by "world" as in....
"Do not love the world or anything in the world if anyone loves the world the love of the Father is not in him." - 1 John 2:15
"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." - John 17:9
Do you really think God loves the world as world is defined in light of these verses? There is a distinction made in the Scriptures with the word "world" based on how it is used. But just in case....
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."- James 4:4
So do you think God loves the world that James has defined in James 4?
Anyway, I have no doubt that God weeps over this world as Christ wept of Jerusalem and I'm aware that God wishes that all would come to repentance but the word "world" in John 3:16, does not mean the whole world without exception. If you think it does, then you embrace universalism which is roundly denied by Scripture.
I only have limited time to address your post, I'll address the rest of your response later this evening.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 7:59:17 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
I believe it is extremely rare where God steps in and overrules someone's free will. In the couple cases in scripture, those people had already hardened their own hearts and God used them by hardening their hearts even more completely.
What about Paul? His free will was violated, and according to your position, his heart was already hardened and yet God came crashing into his life and made him, to quote him, a "bondservant of the Lord Jesus Christ."
I still don't see any Scripture to support that Pharoah, Eli's Sons, ect. had "already hardened their own hearts" at least in terms as if they had any choice to harden or soften their hearts.
< Message edited by BrokenMessenger -- 5/7/2008 8:24:33 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 8:44:00 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
God allowing is not the same as God orchestrating, which it seems is where we differ. Some would say that if God allowed it then it must have been His will. Yet God does not will (or desire) sin. It is not God's will that children are abused, yet God allows it because to stop it would mean that those who do this type of sin would lose their free will by God 'making' them do as He wants.
No, it means they freely act only so far as their enslaved nature permits them to act and insofar that God permits it according to his will. That's not "free will" as you define it. Using your illustration, you are saying that God could have stopped the abuse but didn't because he worries over the free will rights of sinners rather than his glory. That would be idolatry, the Creator worshipping the creature. Instead, God permits such an act because he sees a better glory on the other side of it. God doesn't "need to make us do what he wants" as you define it because we already do what he wants (in large part) by nature. Pilate, the Jewish crowd at his trial, the Pharisees, Judas all acted "freely" insomuch that they all did things according to their nature on that fateful day Jesus was crucified (predicted centuries earlier down to very specific details). I don't deny that Pilate, Judas, the Pharisees and the crowd all acted freely according to their nature - their enslaved nature. But God allowed, steered and set in motion what he ultimately wanted: Jesus on the cross for the redemption of the elect.
At the end of day, can you really say that God did not plan Jesus' death in the way that it actually happened? Can you say that God's will was not accomplished down to the smallest detail when all those men were set on destroying Jesus while being completely oblivious that they were carrying out God's will as foretold by the Scriptures so long before? Jesus' pierced side. Jesus' burial. Jesus beaten. Jesus buried with the rich. Jesus dying with the wicked (the robbers). No bones broken. On and on the little prophetic details go and all somehow all happening despite the "free will" of these men.
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Even though scripture clearly says in Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. There are still little ones who perish under the hand of someone wicked though it is not God's will or desire that they do.
So by this interpretation of this passage, you've now led us to freely (pun somewhat intended) conclude that God is not all-powerful because God's ultimately will and desire are violated for the sake of a sinners free will.
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Scripture also says that it's not God's will that men perish, yet men still perish.
2Pe 3:9
...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But since you admit that some do perish, the conclusion would be the same as above.
< Message edited by BrokenMessenger -- 5/7/2008 8:57:25 PM >
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 8:46:09 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
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However, God can place things in peoples life to highly steer them in a certain direction but the choice is always there.
Isn't steering the use of force to turn or deflect some object?
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/7/2008 11:16:55 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1973
Status: offline
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but the word "world" in John 3:16, does not mean the whole world without exception. If you think it does, then you embrace universalism which is roundly denied by Scripture.
I agree completely that universalism is foreign to Bible truth. However, one does no | | | |
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