quote:

ORIGINAL: justajerk

quote:

I never stated that His cross was not powerful enough to save every last one of us unworthy, low life wretches. I said it is more than powerful enough to do so. But many will choose not to believe that He did die for their sins, many don't believe they do sin. So if they don't acknowledge the fact that they do sin, or that the penalty of sin is death, then they will never see the need for the cross. So they will never accept what the Lord did for them at calvary. If we don't accept it, then we don't receive the gift of salvation that it brings.

In other words;
The sin of unbelief (this is still a sin is it not?) is more powerful than Jesus who sacrificed himself for that sin...
And the unbeliever is sentenced to suffer in hell for a sin that has been paid for, by an un-just, un-righteous god.
Is this what you really want to say?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: justajerk

quote:

I never stated that His cross was not powerful enough to save every last one of us unworthy, low life wretches. I said it is more than powerful enough to do so. But many will choose not to believe that He did die for their sins, many don't believe they do sin. So if they don't acknowledge the fact that they do sin, or that the penalty of sin is death, then they will never see the need for the cross. So they will never accept what the Lord did for them at calvary. If we don't accept it, then we don't receive the gift of salvation that it brings.

In other words;
The sin of unbelief (this is still a sin is it not?) is more powerful than Jesus who sacrificed himself for that sin...
And the unbeliever is sentenced to suffer in hell for a sin that has been paid for, by an un-just, un-righteous god.
Is this what you really want to say?

No, that's not what he wanted to say, neither is that the Gospel found in Scripture. That is simply your "spin" on what the Bible teaches. Seven fundamental truths about the gospel are:

1. Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is sufficient for absolutely all of humanity to be saved.

2. The gift of eternal life is God's gift to every sinner who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and truly repents.

3. Even after the Gospel has been preached and the Holy Spirit has done His work of convincing and convicting sinnners, men can and will harden their hearts to the Gospel. This occurred even while Christ was preaching the Gospel.

4. God compels no one to be saved, even though He has the power to do so. However He draws (with the Son and the Holy Spirit) all sinners to Christ.

5. God commands obedience to the Gospel and repentance, yet leaves men to freely choose Christ.

6. Those who refuse to believe the Gospel are eternally lost or damned.

7. God is perfectly just and righteous in that He has provided a way for every sinner to be saved, but those who reject His offer of eternal life will bring damnation upon themselves.

All of this is amply supported by Scripture. However, if your mind has been clouded by false notions about the Gospel, then you will probably never be able to grasp these simple and basic Gospel truths, and you will continue to misunderstand the Gospel.

quote:

Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is sufficient for absolutely all of humanity to be saved.

quote:

They choose no to believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, so yes even though their sins were paid for, they chose not to accept the one who paid for them, so in turn they do not receive His gift of salvation, and are damned to hell.

quote:

So to be willing to come, we have to exercise our will.
I agree, but it is still up to us to act out on that desire to come to Christ.

quote:

This is a poor argument. Our free will isn't exercised by us choosing where we are born, or who to, but in what we choose to believe regarding the Son of God, who bore our sins, and paid the price of death for them.

quote:

Point 1 taken first here, He did come to save period, so His death was not in vain, not just some, He didn't just come to save some, He came to save all, but not all will be saved do to our unbelief, our unacceptance of what He did for us.

quote:

Point 2, I say that the scriptures that say only a few find eternal life is true, because only a few choose to believe.

quote:

I don't decide who believes or don't believe, I decide through the gift of free will, if I believe.

quote:

I never stated that His cross was not powerful enough to save every last one of us unworthy, low life wretches.

quote:

I said it is more than powerful enough to do so. But many will choose not to believe that He did die for their sins, many don't believe they do sin. So if they don't acknowledge the fact that they do sin, or that the penalty of sin is death, then they will never see the need for the cross. So they will never accept what the Lord did for them at calvary. If we don't accept it, then we don't receive the gift of salvation that it brings.

quote:

They choose no to believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, so yes even though their sins were paid for, they chose not to accept the one who paid for them, so in turn they do not receive His gift of salvation, and are damned to hell.

quote:

So they are perfectly righteous before God because ALL of their sins have been paid except their unbelief, so you cannot really then say that ALL of their sins have been paid past, present and future because you believe that their unbelief damns them while still saying that ALL their sins have been paid.

quote:

So to be willing to come, we have to exercise our will.
I agree, but it is still up to us to act out on that desire to come to Christ.

quote:


Here’s the whole crux of the issue. It’s not up to us, it’s up to God. Salvation is not by works but by faith.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. –Eph. 2:8-9

quote:

The plain, clear teaching of Scripture rejects this idea. If you are willing to come, it is God who wills in you, not you willing yourself to God. Your default will is to hate him

quote:

Point 1 taken first here, He did come to save period, so His death was not in vain, not just some, He didn't just come to save some, He came to save all, but not all will be saved do to our unbelief, our unacceptance of what He did for us.

quote:

So you’re saying…
A. His mission was a failure since not all are saved. You’re saying that God “messed up” because he wasn’t convincing or powerful enough to overcome the unbelief of the damned.
B. The power within those who are damned was too great for the Spirit to overcome.

Jesus death was a complete, glorious success and God will not lose one of his chosen ones.

quote:

Point 2, I say that the scriptures that say only a few find eternal life is true, because only a few choose to believe.

quote:


The verse quoted in my sig defeats this idea as does the previous reply.

quote:

1.You can’t say that all have had all their sins forgiven if they are damned for unbelief, which is a sin.

2.You can’t say Jesus died for all sins, but then say that he didn’t die for the sin of unbelief.

3.You can’t say that they are forgiven for all sin, including their unbelief, but are damned because they reject him. Because that’s what sin is…it is rejection, it is rebellion, it is lawlessness.

quote:

Even after the Gospel has been preached and the Holy Spirit has done His work of convincing and convicting sinnners, men can and will harden their hearts to the Gospel. This occurred even while Christ was preaching the Gospel.

quote:

Lets put this another way then. If they are unbelievers, then their sins were not paid for. If they choose to not believe in the work He did on the cross, then they don't receive the gift of salvation. When and if someone comes to belief in the Lord, then that persons sins are paid for, past present and future. You see, to receive the payment for their sins, they need to believe in what Christ did on the cross. It isn't until a person accepts Gods gift of salvation that He accepts Jesus sacrificial death for the payments of that persons sins. Is this a clear point. Maybe I am writing it all wrong.

quote:

I agree, it is by His grace through my faith that I am saved, but I have to exercise my belief in Him to receive His grace. Let me make this clear though, I am not saying that His grace is not offered to any and all, because it is, but we have to believe in the only begotten Son of God to receive that grace, and His salvation. If we don't believe we don't have faith

quote:

I believe it is Gods will for all to come, but yet some will not. Why? They choose no to believe in Jesus, it is a choice that they make, not one that God previously made.

quote:

Nope yet again, that is not what I said, that is what you distorted what I said into. God wants us to overcome our own unbelief.

quote:

He chooses to let us do that for ourself.

quote:

Jesus death was a complete and glorious success. If He wanted robots He would have created robots. But He didn't, He lets us choose if we will believe and receive His gift of salvation.

quote:

In John 15:16 Is Jesus not talking to the disciples, the 12 apostles who yes were chosen by Him?

quote:

An unbelievers sins are not forgiven until he accepts the atonement offered by Jesus' death for them.

quote:

So the Holy Spirit failed with those he was not convincing and convicting enough because he failed to convince and convict them of their sin so that they would repent? These go to hell because he wasn't strong enough?

And what do you think convicting and convincing is but an assault on the will. When you are being convicted do you choose to be convicted? How about convinced, do you choose to be convinced? These are involuntary responses to truth, not conscious choices.

quote:

[13] At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
[14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s.
[15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
[16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
[17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
[18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
[19] Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
[20] But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
[21] For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
[22] Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
[23] That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
[24] And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
[25] But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
[26] For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
[27] King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
[28] Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
[29] And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
[30] And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them:
[31] And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds.
[32] Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.

quote:

A Just and Righteous God is going to judge sin, so if you don't believe in His Son who bore your sins, then you are still in your sins, and you alone pay that price, which is eternal damnation.

quote:

Now let me ask you a question.

Are you saying that a God who loves Unconditionally, actually doesn't. That His love is only for those He chose ahead of time, and that the rest of mankind is out of luck? How then is that unconditional love? Doesn't the God of creation love all of His creation? How then does your interpretation fit with a God who loves all, but only chooses ahead of time a certain few, and the rest go to hell? That my friend makes absolutely no sense.

quote:

First of all, please notice carefully the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to Paul in verses16-18. Paul's mandate would be (1) to open the eyes of the blind, (2) to turn them from darkness to light, (3) to turn them from the power of Satan unto God, (4) so that they would receive forgiveness of sins and (5) an inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in Christ.

When the Gospel is preached it brings light to the spiritually blind and faith to the unbelieving. Those who believe and repent, receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

quote:

In light of this mandate, Paul preached to King Agrippa and those with him. Now, if the above mandate included a contest of wills and a compulsion of sinners to believe the Gospel, Agrippa would have been saved right then. Why? Because Christ had sent Paul to this king to testify of Himself, and Agrippa was indeed deeply convicted and convinced. Notice his words in verse 28: "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian".

quote:

If salvation were a matter of a contest of wills between the Almighty and sinners, God would win every time, and the whole world would be saved. Since you yourself admit that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world of humanity, then God would simply bend every sinner's will to His own will and they would believe, repent, and be saved.

quote:

In light of this mandate, Paul preached to King Agrippa and those with him. Now, if the above mandate included a contest of wills and a compulsion of sinners to believe the Gospel, Agrippa would have been saved right then. Why? Because Christ had sent Paul to this king to testify of Himself, and Agrippa was indeed deeply convicted and convinced. Notice his words in verse 28: "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian".

quote:

I am always amazed when I come across such reponses to Gospel truth.

If salvation were a matter of a contest of wills between the Almighty and sinners, God would win every time, and the whole world would be saved. Since you yourself admit that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world of humanity, then God would simply bend every sinner's will to His own will and they would believe, repent, and be saved.

quote:

When the Gospel is preached it brings light to the spiritually blind and faith to the unbelieving. Those who believe and repent, receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: justajerk
Yes, Paul in the same manner as you and me, would love to see people accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, but Paul knows that it is not in his power to compel people to do that... salvation is of the Lord.
He preaches the Lord does the calling; we preach, the Lord does the calling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conquered

quote:

Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is sufficient for absolutely all of humanity to be saved.

Ezra, the issue is not sufficiency, we agree that there is enough payment in Christ’s blood to save all.

quote:

The issue is about HOW salvation is made effectual. Do I save myself through my choice or does God save me in spite of the fact that my default choice by nature would always be to reject him?

quote:

You slyly deny man’s inability to come to God via the captivity of sin and this is another gospel than the one that is preached in the Word of God.

quote:

Ezra, I am amazed at your continued lack of understanding of "the will." Since when do you do anything apart from that which seems best or right, which is of course the will. So your above statment makes absolutely no sense in light of a proper understanding of the will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

(1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit who accompanies the Gospel. Though sinners are in captivity to sin, the Gospel is a "jackhammer" to blast that captivity, and the Holy Spirit brings all of God's power to bear upon the truth of the Gospel so that blindness is removed and deafness is cured. Study Acts chapter 2 to grasp this fundamental truth.

quote:

People do make decisions "apart from that which seems best or right" every day. Talk to an addicted smoker. They know smoking is bad for them, and they know it leads to lung cancer and premature death, to say nothing of destroying their health. Yet they do it because they love it, not because it is "best" or "right". So that shoots your theory down right there.

quote:

"...therefore salvation is a contest of wills in which God always wins. "

quote:

Because your theory is false, not all men are saved. God does not apply His irresistible will to this matter, but rather presents all men with an opportunity to receive His gift of eternal life.

quote:

It is only because of man-made theories that people continue to stumble over fundamental Gospel truths.