RE: Who will stand? (Full Version)

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ta_mosquito -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 9:06:27 PM)

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zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 12:50:01 AM)

quote:

I want to ask, do you have any success stories to share? Someone who has changed their lives around after being confronted with their sin? ( Can't imagine being in jail and not at least acknowledging a mistake being made )


Yes. Although, with the countless number of people I've worked with, success is rare. There is one common denominator, however, with thsoe dew success cases I've seen that have made a complete and total transformation. That is Jesus Christ. There are others who have cleaned up and live differently than before. But, all they've done is learn how to manage sin. The ones who embraced Christ have gone on to lead lives the polar opposite of who they had been.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 1:34:49 AM)

Thanks zamdad.

It does bring a question to mind...which has the better success rate...modern day psycology....or Jesus Christ? I suspect I know the answer.

My pastor has said in the 7 years or so he has been pastoring our church he has only once gone to the expullsion extent pointed out in Matthew 18.

It is truth....rebuking is easier than accepting a rebuke. I think we should be open to both.



RJR_fan -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 3:47:49 AM)

quote:

My pastor has said in the 7 years or so he has been pastoring our church he has only once gone to the expullsion extent pointed out in Matthew 18.


In 38 years of Protestant church-going, I've only been a party to one excommunication service. The pastor called us together after a regular Bible study for a "special meeting, some family business." A promiscuous woman the elders had been discretely counseling just would not "get with the program." So, with regret, they told us of our duty to avoid her, apart from routine social chit-chat, and regard her as an unbeliever, unless and until she came to repentance. The girl and her new squeeze found a different church to attend (Protestant churches don't honor each other's ministries) -- but nonetheless, came to repentance within a few months.

The whole event was carried out with scrupulous integrity, as a restorative measure, and God honored it.



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 6:38:24 AM)

This is what amazes me. We work so hard at trying to change someone' behavior. We "love" them so much and and don't see a change happening. We want to love them to repentance. All the while the "sinner" is feeling acceptance from us of their sin. It is laid out for us how we are to treat other's regarding continuous sin in their lives. We rarely impose the guidelines and wonder why the church is in the state it is in. It seems to me, nobody wants to be the bad guy. Nobody wants to be the one to impose these guidelines because they fear the repercussions from man. When God provides a way of Godly living, wouldn't we naturally want to practice those principals because they work? I know discipline within the church is seen as legalistic and nobody wants to wear that banner. I just see a need for more discipline to protect the body.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 9:52:08 AM)

I'm not so sure its a matter of accepting sin. I think we are so insular, that no one knows the extent of sin in other's lives because they are not invested into them.



HisCovenant -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 10:07:46 AM)

I would agree with that and also point out that many times we forget that we are fighting for the sinner's soul. I agree that church discipline is Biblical and it's missing from some groups of believers. I've also seen it used without love and care for the sinner turning to repentance for Christ. It's not sin taht we are fighting, per se, but Satan. Sin is just one of his symptoms. It still needs to be addressed and stood against. But if we can defeat Satan and his minions, the sin will go, too.



zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 10:24:39 AM)

quote:

SonInMe1
I'm not so sure its a matter of accepting sin. I think we are so insular, that no one knows the extent of sin in other's lives because they are not invested into them.


I think this is the crux of what I've been getting at. I noticed this as I was working with the sex offender caseload. I was getting to know the men in the group intimately. It dawned on me that I had no one in my own life holding me accountable at the same level. While I had several men I considered close friends, our schedules and geographical proximity mad connection difficult. Also, most of these men became "uncomfotable" when discussion began to get too deep.

I'm convinced that we live according to the unwritten rules of our culture. We value relationships that stay on the surface. When others are struggling with sin, it's easier to direct them to a professional or someone who specializes in helping people through difficulty. IN a sense, modern psychology has us paying for a best friend to listen to our hearts.



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 10:43:49 AM)

If we don't confront the sin, is that not accepting it ? The person does not know we find it unacceptable if we don't say anything. How would they know?



funny_girl -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 11:07:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

My husband and I are pastors in So. Oregon. We were called here 2 years ago and have found that this area is such a hard hit area for drugs, alcohol, etc... however, we have observed even more over the past few years how rampant "complacency" is in the church today. Is it just us... or are there others out there who are appalled by the defilement of the church today? User friendly churches who preach that everyone is "ok" without preaching the bold truths of the gospel... lesbians and gays preaching from the pulpit... and much more! Where are our Billy Grahams of today? Who will hold the leaders of the churches across America accountable? (yes, I know God will... however, we are called also to hold one-another accountable) Isn't it about time for the body of Christ to rise up and take a stand for truth? Jesus must weep at the condition of the church today. I would admonish the leaders today to re-read the letters to the churches in Revelations and ask yourselves without bias, which church are you?
Gods Blessings...



Religiosity is rampant, God's bride is preparing herself for His soon return. He has obviously revealed this truth to you and you and your husband will preach righteousness and holiness. You won't be influenced by the thinking of the world. You will teach obedience. Be encouraged that there are signs and wonders around the globe. Some choose to close their ears and not hear. I'm reminded of the scripture that says they will hear and not understand. I need to look that up. I'm not in any of the "movements" as I don't run here and there. I know that God is moving upon hungry awaiting hearts. We've seen the blind eyes opened, deaf hear, and the lame walk. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yes, he has poured out His spirit on these last days. We will be caught up with him in a twinkling of an eye. Watch, wait and be ready. Expect him. The harvest is white, the workers are few. Persecution is rising. Search the scriptures. You are not alone. Don't look to your denomination for leadership. Look to the creator of the universe!



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 12:47:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: funny_girl

Religiosity is rampant, God's bride is preparing herself for His soon return. He has obviously revealed this truth to you and you and your husband will preach righteousness and holiness. You won't be influenced by the thinking of the world. You will teach obedience. Be encouraged that there are signs and wonders around the globe. Some choose to close their ears and not hear. I'm reminded of the scripture that says they will hear and not understand. I need to look that up. I'm not in any of the "movements" as I don't run here and there. I know that God is moving upon hungry awaiting hearts. We've seen the blind eyes opened, deaf hear, and the lame walk. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yes, he has poured out His spirit on these last days. We will be caught up with him in a twinkling of an eye. Watch, wait and be ready. Expect him. The harvest is white, the workers are few. Persecution is rising. Search the scriptures. You are not alone. Don't look to your denomination for leadership. Look to the creator of the universe!


Dear Funny Girl...

The Holy Spirit has gifted you... with the gifting of prophecy. When I read your post, I felt it immediately.

Thank you for your words (God's Words) of encouragement... thank you for your obedience to God and His direction.

Yes dear one... we WILL be caught up with Him in the twinkling of an eye... I watch the clouds... I watch for that day. Our Lord says He is coming back for a church "without spot or wrinkle..." (Eph 5:27)... If we do not preach the truth, we are doing our people a dis-service.

You know... there is a verse in Matthew that many Christians quote verbatim... it's one of those verses that you have heard so much that not many folks take it seriously... or at least listen to what it is depicting. I am a very visual person, so when I hear this verse I picture a very sad scene. It is Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

There will be many on that road who will be the one's saying, "Lord, Lord... didn't I..."

Thank you again... and may our Lord richly bless you!
Pastor Debi



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 1:06:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

quote:

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."


So few want to preach this..... People do not want to hear or believe that following Christ is hard. It's so much easier and certainly more welcoming to believe that we can do whatever, live however and never be held accountable ......



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 1:14:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

This is what amazes me. We work so hard at trying to change someone' behavior. We "love" them so much and and don't see a change happening. We want to love them to repentance. All the while the "sinner" is feeling acceptance from us of their sin. It is laid out for us how we are to treat other's regarding continuous sin in their lives. We rarely impose the guidelines and wonder why the church is in the state it is in. It seems to me, nobody wants to be the bad guy. Nobody wants to be the one to impose these guidelines because they fear the repercussions from man. When God provides a way of Godly living, wouldn't we naturally want to practice those principals because they work? I know discipline within the church is seen as legalistic and nobody wants to wear that banner. I just see a need for more discipline to protect the body.


Hi DD...

Yes... once again you are right on target!
I mentioned somewhere about this country preacher here in the area we live in. He is "good ol' boy" from way back... and we love him very much. However, we do not love what he is doing with his church. He is one who wants to be liked... and does not want to confront the sin in his body of believers. The folks who keep going back there are the druggies and alcoholics that do not want to be changed. They want to go to church on Sunday morning... have their ears tickled and their backs patted for coming and then go out and do the same thing all over again. We know folks who go there.... who have counseled with us, and are making drug buys in the church parking lot. They go to that church because there is no conviction there. No-one is telling them straight up... 'you're in sin.'

There is a little leadership book that we buy for evryone we know who is in leadership. It pertains to big corporate workers as well as pastors, lay leaders, etc. It is called "The Way of the Shepherd." The jist of the book is this:
You care for your sheep... feed them well.. groom them well, etc. When you call them, they will know your voice and will come. If you have an unruly sheep who digs under the fence... you retreive the sheep, tell him he's wrong and you mend the fence. However, if the unruly sheep continues to dig under the fence and is leading other sheep astray.... what do you do? You need to get rid of that sheep.
Why do you think Christ is called the Good Shepherd? He has given us these exact guidelines in His Word. Not only does a good shepherd go after his sheep, but he will go to extremes to try and keep him before having to let him go... he will break their leg so they can't wander... then the try again to train them.

I know that there are some who will be totally against this way of thinking... however... it's in the Word.

Thanks again DD... [:D]
much love...
Pastor Debi



jbow -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 1:38:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Is God dependant on us to save people?


If He is it is by choice. He commands us to pray. To what end? So that He will act in the earth. He has limited Himself by choice. He said, "You have not because you ask not, and when you do ask, you ask amiss". He has made Himself dependent upon us, His body, by choice.

He is sovereign, He can do anything, anytime, except for those things that He has Himself limited Himself from doing. For instance He will not go against His word. He will change His mind, and Has changed His course of action due to man's repentance.

So yes He is dependent on man but only by choice and by His self imposed dependence. Otherwise why pray? Why be a witness?

J



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 1:51:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbow

If He is it is by choice. He commands us to pray. To what end? So that He will act in the earth. He has limited Himself by choice. He said, "You have not because you ask not, and when you do ask, you ask amiss". He has made Himself dependent upon us, His body, by choice.

He is sovereign, He can do anything, anytime, except for those things that He has Himself limited Himself from doing. For instance He will not go against His word. He will change His mind, and Has changed His course of action due to man's repentance.

So yes He is dependent on man but only by choice and by His self imposed dependence. Otherwise why pray? Why be a witness?

J


Oooooh... very good.

Amen!!!

Pastor Debi



Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 4:12:23 PM)

quote:

I think this is the crux of what I've been getting at. I noticed this as I was working with the sex offender caseload. I was getting to know the men in the group intimately. It dawned on me that I had no one in my own life holding me accountable at the same level. While I had several men I considered close friends, our schedules and geographical proximity mad connection difficult. Also, most of these men became "uncomfotable" when discussion began to get too deep.

I'm convinced that we live according to the unwritten rules of our culture. We value relationships that stay on the surface. When others are struggling with sin, it's easier to direct them to a professional or someone who specializes in helping people through difficulty. IN a sense, modern psychology has us paying for a best friend to listen to our hearts.


Right on, Zamdad! This is why I focus on truth and truthfulness. They go hand in hand and are so needed in today's church. John 3:19-21 are verses that I frequently use.

"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

This is what the church needs to lead in---truth and truthfulness. Bless ya![:)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 8:34:04 PM)

quote:

I've also seen it used without love and care for the sinner turning to repentance


...as with the immoral brother, he was kicked out of fellowship so satan could work on him to reconcile him back. Its not about the "purity" of the church, since it can never be with humans in it. Its about the relationship we have with Christ and doing all we can to insure the best one we can have.

quote:

If we don't confront the sin, is that not accepting it ?


Depends on the confrontation and how it is done.

quote:

So yes He is dependent on man but only by choice and by His self imposed dependence. Otherwise why pray? Why be a witness?


I can agree with this to a point. We have a role, in submission to God, to witness and pray but God leads and God saves. He is primary.



HisCovenant -> RE: Who will stand? (5/5/2008 10:34:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

I've also seen it used without love and care for the sinner turning to repentance


...as with the immoral brother, he was kicked out of fellowship so satan could work on him to reconcile him back. Its not about the "purity" of the church, since it can never be with humans in it. Its about the relationship we have with Christ and doing all we can to insure the best one we can have.

Exactly. The whole point of discipline in that passage seems to be "winning your brother," just like in Matthew 18.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 4:17:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

This is what the church needs to lead in---truth and truthfulness. Bless ya![:)]


This is a beautiful verse... and yes truth and truthfulness are much needed in today's church... the problem is, is that so many are confused by what truth really is. They hear so many waves of doctrine... that they become overwhelmed with questioning, "what is truth."

Much of the "truth" involves conviction....

Jesus told Peter, "If you love me, feed My sheep."... and that "food" for the sheep isn't just milk, it's the meat and potatoes... AND the veggies (of conviction) that everyone would rather not have to eat.

I gave a verse to DeliveredDarling a couple days ago... "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age (satan) has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."

Our gospel is veiled to so many... and even to many in the church.... unfortunately. [&:]

Blessings...
Pastor Debi



crh737 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 4:46:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

My husband and I are pastors in So. Oregon. We were called here 2 years ago and have found that this area is such a hard hit area for drugs, alcohol, etc... however, we have observed even more over the past few years how rampant "complacency" is in the church today. Is it just us... or are there others out there who are appalled by the defilement of the church today? User friendly churches who preach that everyone is "ok" without preaching the bold truths of the gospel... lesbians and gays preaching from the pulpit... and much more! Where are our Billy Grahams of today? Who will hold the leaders of the churches across America accountable? (yes, I know God will... however, we are called also to hold one-another accountable) Isn't it about time for the body of Christ to rise up and take a stand for truth? Jesus must weep at the condition of the church today. I would admonish the leaders today to re-read the letters to the churches in Revelations and ask yourselves without bias, which church are you?
Gods Blessings...


I bleieve in Church Universal. I do not believe in denominations as the God we serve is A spirit.
Yes sin does run rampant in our daily lives doesnt it? But when I personally speak to a person I refer them to the answer which is known as the Holy Bible.
When I worked in a hospital, my patients didn't need a church bldg. what they needed was a Saviour that could cleanse them, so their house would be clean when He came.
I personally do not believe in a "church" it has nothing to offer, it's the people that have something to offer and you don't always have to meet them in your bldg.
Most folks I meet is certainly not there and most christians fail to mention that churches are for the sick in spirit. Church is for a hospital of what Jesus stated: The lame, the broken hearted, etc....
But what many Christians or people really forget is that this world we live in is HIS Church.
John3:16 For God so loved the what? Hello, the World!
This does not exclude anyone, except what those pew warmers want to disclaim. Get back Jesus [;)] You unworthy soul!

Woah unto those who thing greater of themselves. We *ALL* have a calling and some work diliegently toward it, yet you still can't see the unity of Christwards.

Who would have ever thought that my calling would be working with the terminally ill and psychaitric patients, and they call me crazy.

The craziness I see is folks trying to demean one anothers callings.
Hmmmm You fed this one and that person changed that one, and so how does that makes one person job more over the other?
It sounds to me a case of who wants to be John or who wants to be James in the kingdom, when Jesus himself said: You do not know what you ask of who should be on my left or right!
The least is the same as the most....
Please folks we all have a purpose and are certainly passionate about it, but I have to ask what are you passionate about? Is it serving God? Or maybe looking for Kudos for the left or right position?
CRH



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 5:30:18 PM)

I think I missed what it is you are standing for[:(]



Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 5:30:32 PM)

quote:

Our gospel is veiled to so many... and even to many in the church.... unfortunately.


Absolutely. That is why it is so important that those of us who know the gospel, live it. And living it is living in truth and truthfulness. When Jesus spoke to those in His midst when on earth, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick." When the church pretends health instead of confessing their sickness, we are not living in the truth.

If I confess MY need for Jesus, because of MY sinfulness, I have the power of the gospel to offer to my unsaved friends, Jesus. If I go about spouting truth and not living repentantly and truthfully, they see someone who is healthy and who has no need of the Great Physician.

The prophets Jeremiah and Obadiah said that the arrogance of your heart deceives you. And Paul spoke to the Romans of those who thought themselves wise.

Yes, we must see ourselves rightly because then, and only then, do we have a gospel to offer to a lost world. [:)]



crh737 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 6:05:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I think I missed what it is you are standing for[:(]


Delivered~
It's easy to understand. Why can't we stand and agree for each other and support one another.
Everyone has a passion that is Christward, but instead of debating of what is "more "important", they should all be counted as important.

It's not all happening in a church building, there are people outside of the church building who are actually working towards a unity.

God's church is not a building, God's church is the world, however broekn as it is: John3:16 God so loved the World
It does not exclude people who do not attend. So those homeless or drunks, or what have you, you *may* pass by are still a part of God.

Yet denominations can not see past their brothers beliefs, that it has driven a sword into what should be a building the unity, instead it has created segregation in which folks refuse to work together in spite of their belief.
The belief should be One in the Spirit! Instead we have the belief of One in *WE BELIEVE* to be right, yet refuse to work together!
So all these *ministries* everyone strives to sustain, can easily be achieved if everyone put their doctrinal belief aside and worked together through Christ.
But that won't happen because everyone wants to strive for the position of John or James/ hence the Right or the (God forbid) left side James.

It's certainly a case of spiting one's nose, comprende~
CRH



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 6:21:24 PM)

Who will stand...good question.....

http://www.myspace.com/toddagnew

Please click on the song "My Jesus" when it comes up[sm=heart.gif]



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 8:01:38 PM)

crh, did you read the previous posts? I think the majority of the ones who are posting on this thread work with these people. We aren't looking down our noses at them, it's exactly the opposite. Most of us are in unity here. Is the "church" as a whole. No, I can't say that it is. We are standing for sound doctrine. Just because Jesus is said during a sermon, doesn't mean it is the Jesus of the Bible. This is what we are standing for-sound doctrine rather than easy believing.



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