Is there scripture to back this up???? (Full Version)

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Fortydays -> Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/29/2008 10:10:48 PM)

Lucifer was trying to lead a revolution against God. When the rebellion failed, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, along with a third of the heavenly host, and came to reside here on earth.



ladyichigo -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/29/2008 10:53:43 PM)

Isaiah 14-15
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.


Revelation 12:7-9

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.



Fortydays -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/29/2008 10:53:44 PM)

I found this...

I think it is clear that the King James Bible teaches that Lucifer and Satan are two different names for the same being. Thus, the Bible does indeed say that God threw Lucifer out of heaven.

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming…How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer…thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14:9-16 KJV)

Lucifer Goes to Hell

Lucifer Means "Light-bringer"

Just like Lucifer in Isaiah, Satan fell from heaven:

And there was war in heaven…Satan was cast out (Revelation 12:7-9)

Satan Goes to Hell

Just like Lucifer in Isaiah, Satan goes to hell:



Satan was cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9)

Note that Satan is cast into the earth, not onto the earth. Other Bible versions translate it "to the earth," but just as the question of whether the KJV translators rendered sheol correctly is irrelevant to my argument, so is it irrelevant whether the correct translation is "to the earth" rather than "into the earth." The fact remains that the KJV teaches that Satan was cast into the earth, not to it or onto it. Thus, the image we have is of a being falling from heaven into the bowels of the earth, just like the Lucifer who fell from heaven to hell. Lest there be any doubt that New Testament writers would have imagined that hell is where Satan went, we have the following:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10)

Satan Radiates Light in His Fall from Heaven

In the verse below, the Lukan author tells of Jesus associating a great light with the fall of Satan from heaven, as would be appropriate for a being whose other name means "light-bringer":

I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:1

Thus, the Lukan and Revelation authors describe a Satan which falls from heaven to hell, just as the Lucifer did in Isaiah, and furthermore the Satan they describe has the same light-giving property that the name Lucifer represents. Clearly, then authors either thought the two beings were one and the same, or at least that the Isaiah Lucifer prefigured the appearance of a Lucifer by another name, Satan.

Thus, the name Satan is just another name for the being called Lucifer in the King James Bible, and so it was Lucifer who was thrown from heaven in Revelation.



NYCorBUST -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/29/2008 11:32:50 PM)

A lot of people use ISAIAH 14:11-15 and EZEKIEL 29:1-19 as allusions to Satan.


ISAIAH 14:11-15

When we look at this passage, we know this – the text itself is speaking of the King of Babylon

Then we Jesus’ words in Luke 10:18 Jesus says that he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning

This statement by Jesus leads many people to believe that Jesus is referring to Isaiah is not only speaking of the King of Babylon but also alluding to Satan’s fall prophetically.

So what can we conclude from this? First is the 5 “I wills” of the King of Babylon/Satan
1. I will ascend to heaven
2. I will raise my throne above the stars of God
3. I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north
4. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds
5. I will make myself like the most high.

In this we see that the individual spoke about here was full of Pride. That he wanted his throne to be higher than the stars of God, and he wanted everything under his feet and he wanted to be like “the most high” which is God.


EZEKIEL 29:1-19

This is like a parallel passage when speaking about the King of Tyer is similar to the King of Babylon.

The first thing we notice is Ezekiel is not speaking about a person but a supernatural being as noted here:
 EZ28:12 “You had the seal of Perfection” & if you remember the importance of having a seal as in we are sealed by the Holy Spirit – means, this guy was seals into perfection
Full meaning complete in wisdom and perfect beauty
EZ28:13 “You were in Eden, the Garden of God”
EZ28:14 “You were the anointed Cherub”
Cherubim: Defenders & Carriers of God’s Holiness
Ex 25:17-22 (MERCY SEAT)
[Ps 18:10 Ez 10:1-22]God himself is frequently said to be enthroned on the Cherubim or to travel with the Cherubim as His Chariot

This leads a lot of scholars to believe that Satan before the fall was the highest ranking of Cherubim or the highest ranking of presenting God before others to worship;
Also in IS14:11 – it says that his pomp & music of his harps were brought down to sheol and maggots are spread out as his bed and worms are his covering
Thus people conclude he was leader of worship in Heaven and because he led the worship he felt if it weren’t for him heaven would fall apart thus he should be the most high.
Now, is this true – maybe, but the truth is I am not sure if we can conclude either way.
But what we can conclude definitively is the text does say:
He wanted to be in heaven above all
At the same equal power and authority as God
Pride began in his heart because of his given wisdom and splendor
Instead of using his gifts for their original purpose he corrupted them and wanted to be like God.

So we can conclude that Pride was Satan’s Sin – and that is why people will say that Pride is the beginning of all Sin
It is when you say, I can do this better than God and God’s ways are right, because I have a better way; therefore, I should be able to have a say – when in reality you shouldn’t.

God created you and thus God knows what is best for you.

So what did Lucifer look like?
EZ28:13 – He was covered in precious stones so he was glimmering, and beautiful, something to be adored and desired.
EZ28:5 – says he had extreme riches
EZ28:12 – tells us he was perfectly beautiful
EZ28:3 – he was smarter than Daniel


We also know that He is powerful
Remember Mr. Archangle Michael?

Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

But then we also know that there is No Need to Fear: He was rendered Powerless at the Cross
HEB 2:14-15 – Jesus rendered powerless the one who had the power of death so that those who have faith in Jesus will no longer be slaves to sin
In the Future he will be thrown into the pit for 1000 yrs
Then cast into the lake of Fire.



Bee777 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/30/2008 6:29:47 AM)

NYCorBUST
I agree with you that God was addressing the king of Babylon when reffering to lucifer.
God has given us all the names of Satan see ............

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The KJV Strong's Version

We only presume Lucifer is Satan , and because of this we think Satan was an angel. Please read Mathew

8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Where is the beginning.
Genesis 1;1 In the beginning ..................

Luke 10;18 must be read it context .
because of the sacrifice of Jesus, Satan's power was taken away.

Luke 10;17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

look at in the context that Satan's rule is no longer, for ever, he will eventually be bound thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus and the power given to us through His name. That is why Satan has fallen. Also remember God and Satan used to have discussions with each other before Jesus. Take the case of Job for instance................

1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it..........................

read on and see how they used to have conversations with each other.

quote:


The first thing we notice is Ezekiel is not speaking about a person but a supernatural being as noted here:
 EZ28:12 “You had the seal of Perfection” & if you remember the importance of having a seal as in we are sealed by the Holy Spirit – means, this guy was seals into perfection
Full meaning complete in wisdom and perfect beauty
EZ28:13 “You were in Eden, the Garden of God”
EZ28:14 “You were the anointed Cherub”
Cherubim: Defenders & Carriers of God’s Holiness
Ex 25:17-22 (MERCY SEAT)
[Ps 18:10 Ez 10:1-22]God himself is frequently said to be enthroned on the Cherubim or to travel with the Cherubim as His Chariot


Why do you presume He is speaking about a supernatural being and not a person ?
First he says Ezek 28; 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

So he is addressing a man or nation not Satan. This also goes to show that not only Adam, eve and Satan where in the garden of Eden but the people of Tyrus also and that is why so many of us Christians fall short as we do not see more than two people and Satan in the garden of Eden.

Thank you for also showing me that cherub does not necessarily mean angel.



Ge 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; ( singular ) male and female created he them.( plural)

Ge 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

The KJV Strong's Version

I know many will not see this as all have different interpretations to the Bible, but this is what I see and read.


Blessings in search of God's truth



Doc65 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/30/2008 6:42:07 AM)

There isn't a lot of canonical referents to the fall of Satan, but in the apocryphal Book of Enoch (which is quoted in Jude, interestingly enough), it speaks at great length of Azazel (Satan/Lucifer) and a host of angels being cast down from heaven. It's the 6th through the 8th chapters of the Book of Enoch - here's a link:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm

Hope this helps...



Bee777 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/30/2008 11:34:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc65

There isn't a lot of canonical referents to the fall of Satan, but in the apocryphal Book of Enoch (which is quoted in Jude, interestingly enough), it speaks at great length of Azazel (Satan/Lucifer) and a host of angels being cast down from heaven. It's the 6th through the 8th chapters of the Book of Enoch - here's a link:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm
Hope this helps...


here is the Biblical passage for the book of Enoch.
But still doesn't mean that they were angels



Genesis 6

6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

In the book of Enoch it says Chapter 6 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven,

If you look under Mesopotamian gods the word this comes up...
An: Sumerian, god of heaven, pantheon leader prior to 2500 BC. The word “an” means “heaven.”

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/ekur/mesogods.html

Would be interesting to see the original wording was in that sentence, do you know DOC65

Blessings



Doc65 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (4/30/2008 4:50:59 PM)

quote:

Would be interesting to see the original wording was in that sentence, do you know DOC65


Which sentence? If it's Hebrew, I can help. If it's Sumerian or Mesopotamian, can't help ya...

Let me know.



Bee777 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (5/1/2008 3:26:25 AM)

Not sure ?
What was the original language of the book of Enoch ?

Thanks



Bee777 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (9/23/2008 6:14:11 AM)

Hi
Here is an interesting post showing that Satan is not Lucifer or a fallen angel.
http://solomon.heavenforum.com/biblical-myths-f3/satan-is-no-fallen-angel-or-lucifer-t4.htm

Blessings



Casper22 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (9/23/2008 7:03:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc65
quote:

Would be interesting to see the original wording was in that sentence, do you know DOC65
Which sentence? If it's Hebrew, I can help. If it's Sumerian or Mesopotamian, can't help ya... Let me know.
Ah the nephillim. A church I started going too teaches that the Sons of God are fallen angels that had sexual union with the daughters of men therefore creating giants. I know theres alot of opinions supporting that theory particularly by Charles Stanley, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impy ect ect even Billy Graham personally I dont know what to believe because you get so many different points of view on it from people who have there own personal interpretation of scripture and opinion.



Casper22 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (9/23/2008 7:07:01 AM)

OOPS Just realised I quoted from the wrong source. So sorry about that. My post was in reference to Genesis 6



Bee777 -> RE: Is there scripture to back this up???? (9/23/2008 10:41:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casper22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc65

quote:

Would be interesting to see the original wording was in that sentence, do you know DOC65


Which sentence? If it's Hebrew, I can help. If it's Sumerian or Mesopotamian, can't help ya...

Let me know.



Ah the nephillim. A church I started going too teaches that the Sons of God are fallen angels that had sexual union with the daughters of men therefore creating giants. I know theres alot of opinions supporting that theory particularly by Charles Stanley, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impy ect ect even Billy Graham personally I dont know what to believe because you get so many different points of view on it from people who have there own personal interpretation of scripture and opinion.


Hi Yes that is the only conclusion if you cannot see the others in Eden.
Sons of God being the Adamic ( singular) later to become Israel line and the daughters of men ( plural) the other creation.
Think about it, who did Cain, Seth etc marry ?
Daughters of men.
Blessings



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