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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 4:42:03 AM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
What about a toasted sandwich with what appears to be the image of Mary on it?
Well, that is why ascertaining purpose is important to detecting design.
Purpose? I don't follow?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 8:14:01 AM
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PromiseLander
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You know what I think of when I think of the claims of Intelligent Design? Obviously Intelligent Design states that there must have been some intelligence behind the complexity of existence - it could not have happened on its own... I think of Paul as he was standing in the middle of the Areopagus teaching the men of Athens and said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD..." And of course, Paul continues to teach, and in his teachings he teaches creation by God... Not an unknown force or intelligence, but GOD... (Acts 17:22-34)
In other words, if someone is teaching that an "intelligence" was behind existence, if they do not point out that it was GOD, then it is no better than the men of Athens, soaked to the gills in idolatry.
God's word teaches special creation and leaves no room for evolution; neither is it ambiguous about how things came into existence.
Intelligent Design is an attempt to water down the Biblical lessons on creation in an attempt to present it to a secular audience while offending as little people as possible... There's a Greek word for this: BOLOGNA!!!!
WHY are so many people worried about hurting folks' feelings? It's impossible to get saved unless you are first offended... BE OFFENDED, then CHANGE!
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 11:09:58 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6770
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quote:
You know what I think of when I think of the claims of Intelligent Design? Obviously Intelligent Design states that there must have been some intelligence behind the complexity of existence - it could not have happened on its own... I think of Paul as he was standing in the middle of the Areopagus teaching the men of Athens and said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD..." And of course, Paul continues to teach, and in his teachings he teaches creation by God... Not an unknown force or intelligence, but GOD... (Acts 17:22-34)
In other words, if someone is teaching that an "intelligence" was behind existence, if they do not point out that it was GOD, then it is no better than the men of Athens, soaked to the gills in idolatry.
God's word teaches special creation and leaves no room for evolution; neither is it ambiguous about how things came into existence.
Intelligent Design is an attempt to water down the Biblical lessons on creation in an attempt to present it to a secular audience while offending as little people as possible... There's a Greek word for this: BOLOGNA!!!!
WHY are so many people worried about hurting folks' feelings? It's impossible to get saved unless you are first offended... BE OFFENDED, then CHANGE!
Actually, Paul didn't condemn the Greeks for for having such an altar, he used it to fill in the blanks mere rationalism could not. Science can only take us so far; it can't describe for us the personality of God, it can't give us certain truths about Him, it can only help us see how He as an intelligent designer might have acted in the natural world - but that is as far as science can take us because it is a limited tool.
But thankfully, as Christians we aren't limited to science, and so not limited to these constraints - so we don't blame science for giving us an altar to an unknown God, but understand that where science ends, we can step in.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 11:17:22 AM
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unclemonkey
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quote:
But thankfully, as Christians we aren't limited to science, and so not limited to these constraints - so we don't blame science for giving us an altar to an unknown God, but understand that where science ends, we can step in.
EXCELLENT!
_____________________________
Visit my home church.
Also consider Life's Most Important Queston
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 11:50:49 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
Actually, Paul didn't condemn the Greeks for for having such an altar, he used it to fill in the blanks mere rationalism could not. Science can only take us so far; it can't describe for us the personality of God, it can't give us certain truths about Him, it can only help us see how He as an intelligent designer might have acted in the natural world - but that is as far as science can take us because it is a limited tool.
But thankfully, as Christians we aren't limited to science, and so not limited to these constraints - so we don't blame science for giving us an altar to an unknown God, but understand that where science ends, we can step in.
Yes, but the problem that I have with the idea behind Intelligent Design is that now many Christians who proclaim this idea are saying that they don't know who created everything, just that some intelligence was behind it all.
Now, if someone is to come to us talking about Intelligent Design, then like you said, it is now our privaledge to step in and proclaim to them the Gospel, and how what is unknown to them, can be known in God through His word.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 12:05:27 PM
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Jhud
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Yes, but the problem that I have with the idea behind Intelligent Design is that now many Christians who proclaim this idea are saying that they don't know who created everything, just that some intelligence was behind it all.
Now, if someone is to come to us talking about Intelligent Design, then like you said, it is now our privaledge to step in and proclaim to them the Gospel, and how what is unknown to them, can be known in God through His word.
Well, I don't know any Christians who say they don't know who created everything (in fact, if they did say that, I am not sure how they came to be Christians to begin with) but rather they say (as I do) that one can't know such things through science. That is a signifcantly different thing.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 12:27:18 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, but the problem that I have with the idea behind Intelligent Design is that now many Christians who proclaim this idea are saying that they don't know who created everything, just that some intelligence was behind it all.
Now, if someone is to come to us talking about Intelligent Design, then like you said, it is now our privaledge to step in and proclaim to them the Gospel, and how what is unknown to them, can be known in God through His word.
Well, I don't know any Christians who say they don't know who created everything (in fact, if they did say that, I am not sure how they came to be Christians to begin with) but rather they say (as I do) that one can't know such things through science. That is a signifcantly different thing.
Ah, 10-4... I see what you're saying... In this instance, certainly science is a REAL handicap - it only produces questions, not answers.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/15/2008 9:32:45 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 641
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Do you think that I'm going to lose any sleep over the fact that I have offended ANYONE in here?
I certainly hope not.
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Friend, I don't care about your feelings.
I find your candor refreshing.
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Look, ALL of us have committed willful crimes against a God so Holy that the very serephim in Heaven hide their faces from His Glory and cannot even look upon Him.
No, if we were born intrinsically evil, then we have no choice but to sin.
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I can PROVE to you that the very thoughts and intents of your heart are evil since birth
Which also proves that I have no real choice but to be evil. I don't think that God should be mad at me, or anyone else, for that which we have no choice in.
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Just take your thoughts in the last week, the last day, or even the last hour about anyone you know, and if I could project them onto a screen for everyone to see, you would run out of the room in shame.
No, I have no shame or humor.
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We are ALL like that.
Apparently not . . .
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And we have ALL offended God.
I don't understand his offense.
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If that doesn't bring you to tears then you have NO idea about how Holy God is!
You're right: I don't know.
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Repent and believe...
I do appreciate your little sermon, PromiseLander. You are without guile. Unlike some others around here, you don't masquerade behind a pretense of scientific certification and intellectual validity. Your stance is religious-- boom.
That's honesty.
I haven't an argument against your faith, but I must tell you one thing for truth's sake: you are really off-mark in your understanding of evolution.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 8:06:56 AM
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PromiseLander
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1dblthnk02:
Because of your response, I do hope there is at least some honest curiosity about some of the matters that I spoke about... (If I'm not clear enough in anything, don't hesitate to ask)
You are right though, before we know God, we don't have any choice but to sin, because it is all that we know how to do.
The Scriptures tell us that there is clear enough evidence of God in the things that are made all around us from the rocks and trees, to a beautiful sunset, to love. But before God calls us into His family, we know of God, but we don't glorify Him as God - We know OF Him, but we don't KNOW Him... Therefore our willful actions - the choices we make - are an abomination to Him. Even a good deed, if it is not done in the name of God, is an abomination to God and a sin. If you give a cup of cool water to a dying man and you do not do it for the Glory of God then it is sin. We are all born with a sinful nature with a propensity for sin - we are born with the capacity to choose to serve God or to not serve God. A true love can never be forced, and God wants us to love Him freely - not out of design, but out of desire for what He has done for us.
God is the very definition of just, and even in our secular court system, a crime deserving of death does not go unpunished simply because the judge may call himself a loving judge. If a man deserving of death is immediately forgiven without any punishment at all, how can we call the judge just? Crimes must be punished for a judge to be just. God IS just, and we are all deserving of death because we have sinned against Him, and since God is infinately just, our crimes against Him are infinately horrible and demand an infinate punishment. But God sent His own Son to step in and drink the cup of the wrath of God that was intended for us. And God's wrath was poured out upon His own Son so that through Him, we might be forgiven. This is the Propitiation that He has made for us, and this is why we love Him.
If we were to live a million years we would never understand completely what this means, but in even a small glimpse of understanding that we do have we are thankful, and we love Him because HE SAVED US FROM THE WRATH OF GOD!!!! And this is eternal life: "Chasing down an intimate knowledge of Him"
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 8:16:06 AM
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PromiseLander
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It has been told to me that my understanding of evolution is wrong... Well, I've never claimed to be a scientist, and I was never taught evolution in school. Since I gave a "reader's digest" version of the Gospel in post #309 when I spoke of Propitiation, would someone be so kind as to give me the "reader's digest" version of what evolution is teaching nowadays? (about a paragraph please)
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 9:32:10 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
It has been told to me that my understanding of evolution is wrong... Well, I've never claimed to be a scientist, and I was never taught evolution in school. Since I gave a "reader's digest" version of the Gospel in post #309 when I spoke of Propitiation, would someone be so kind as to give me the "reader's digest" version of what evolution is teaching nowadays? (about a paragraph please)
It takes more than a paragraph, but I will try to keep it short. This is very, very general and overlooks much detailed information. I also have left out all reference to supporting evidence. You will have to be curious enough to ask for that.
Species change genetically. Often this means nothing as genetic change can happen without making any difference to the species (genetic changes in non-coding DNA, synonymous changes). Sometimes, it does make a difference. When a member of a species is born with a genetic difference, it may show up as a morphological, physiological or behavioral difference as well. So, in every species we see variations in many traits.
Many variations are just interesting variations. They have no impact on how well organisms survive, how often they are able to reproduce, how many of their offspring survive. These differences may be regional, because it is most likely that parents and children will live in the same area, so in different regions of a species range, you will get different variations accumulating and generating different "ethnic" characteristics.
A minority of variations are influential in how well the organism survives and is able to reproduce. A variation that causes sterility, for example, means that even if the organism is healthy, it cannot reproduce and will pass no genetic information to the next generation. Most variations which impact survival do so negatively (harmful mutations). This is to be expected as most species get along very well as they are, so when change is not neutral (as in most cases) it is likely to be undesirable.
This means that most changes which impact survival lead to premature death (before reproduction or before the completion of the reproductive cycle) and/or inability to reproduce. So organisms with such variations contribute less to the next generation than those without them. The result is that harmful genetic change is restricted in scope, affecting a minority of the species in each generation. This is called purging natural selection.
Occasionally, the opposite occurs and a variation improves the ability of an organism to survive and reproduce. Organisms with this variation will tend to complete their reproductive cycle more often and not only have more offspring, but more offspring that survive through their own reproductive cycle. Over time, organisms that have this variation will come to form the majority of the species. This is called adaptive natural selection and when such a variation has become the expected norm for the species, the variation is said to be fixed in the species. The accumulation of such variations in a species over time contributes to changing the characteristics of the species. So species change over time.
Speciation is a special step. I mentioned regional variations. A species is spread out over a geographical range and through particular ecological niches. This means that different segments of the species reproduce in different areas and in somewhat different environments. Sometimes, different segments of the species become separated from each other so that they do not have any way of passing genetic information from one segment to the other. Sometimes this situation is temporary; sometimes it becomes permanent. When it becomes permanent, you now have two or more species where there used to be only one. Of course, these species will still be very similar to each other. But because they no longer mingle their genetic information, and because they will each continue to accumulate changes in their genetic information, they do become more different from each other as time goes on. In fact, diversity is encouraged, for diversity reduces the intensity of competition between similar species and allows for more organisms in each population to survive and thrive. So characteristics which at first naturally emerge as typical of a particular geographic or ecological range can become the basis of speciation--a permanent genetic separation between these two populations. As Darwin put it: varieties are incipient species. And of course, once a species is established, it is subject to the same flow of genetic change, variation, formation of regional varieties, etc. so it can also eventually break into two or more species.
The net result over time is a "family tree" of speciations, technically known as a phylogeny, which shows how species are related to one another. This is also called "common descent".
Finally, in addition to evidence, you will note that there are many things this outline does NOT say--things you may be very interested in knowing. Most of them are not spoken of because the theory of evolution is neutral on the topic. IOW the question really doesn't concern evolution, but lies in another field of science or outside science altogether.
Hope this helps. If anything is puzzling, or you wish to explore further, feel free to ask.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 10:03:48 AM
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PromiseLander
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OK, most of what I read actually chimes with a Biblical view, let me explain...
First a little background...
Sin, by definition is a transgression of God's law. Sin causes death. Death comes through sickness, disease, predation, ect... All of these are a result of sin. Since we all have a sinful nature, and are dying since birth, sin is "genetic." We are predisposed to die from birth. "Since sin entered the world through one man, and death by sin, all die becuase all of sinned..."
Mutations in genetic code are therefore, by definition, results of sin. The key point is that all things were created according to their "kinds" so we're not going to see the monkey to man mentality, but from wolf to bassett hound is a Biblically sound type of change. "Beneficial" mutations are open to speculation, but changes like this are clear evidences of sin...
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 11:27:44 AM
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swan42
Posts: 292
Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
OK, most of what I read actually chimes with a Biblical view, let me explain...
First a little background...
Sin, by definition is a transgression of God's law. Sin causes death. Death comes through sickness, disease, predation, ect... All of these are a result of sin. Since we all have a sinful nature, and are dying since birth, sin is "genetic." We are predisposed to die from birth. "Since sin entered the world through one man, and death by sin, all die becuase all of sinned..."
Mutations in genetic code are therefore, by definition, results of sin. The key point is that all things were created according to their "kinds" so we're not going to see the monkey to man mentality, but from wolf to bassett hound is a Biblically sound type of change. "Beneficial" mutations are open to speculation, but changes like this are clear evidences of sin...
Mutations in genetic code are also what make individuals unique. So if there were no sin you'd expect we would all look identical.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 12:30:22 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
OK, most of what I read actually chimes with a Biblical view, let me explain...
First a little background...
Sin, by definition is a transgression of God's law. Sin causes death. Death comes through sickness, disease, predation, ect... All of these are a result of sin. Since we all have a sinful nature, and are dying since birth, sin is "genetic." We are predisposed to die from birth. "Since sin entered the world through one man, and death by sin, all die becuase all of sinned..."
If sin were genetic we could rid ourselves of our sinfulness by scientific means. We could pinpoint which genes produce sin in us and eliminate them, or modify them so that they did not have mortal effects. There would be no need for an atoning sacrifice. Getting rid of sin would be a matter of genetic engineering.
Are you sure you want to continue in this theological direction?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 1:15:24 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 288
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
OK, most of what I read actually chimes with a Biblical view, let me explain...
First a little background...
Sin, by definition is a transgression of God's law. Sin causes death. Death comes through sickness, disease, predation, ect... All of these are a result of sin. Since we all have a sinful nature, and are dying since birth, sin is "genetic." We are predisposed to die from birth. "Since sin entered the world through one man, and death by sin, all die becuase all of sinned..."
If sin were genetic we could rid ourselves of our sinfulness by scientific means. We could pinpoint which genes produce sin in us and eliminate them, or modify them so that they did not have mortal effects. There would be no need for an atoning sacrifice. Getting rid of sin would be a matter of genetic engineering.
Are you sure you want to continue in this theological direction?
Good grief no... I didn't mean it in the sense that sin is a genetic coding (hence the quotations around the word)... Only that our sinful natures ARE passed down to us from generations before, all the way back toAdam. Not that sin is actually encoded in our genes, but LIKE genes, the sinful nature is passed down. Likewise, disruptions and mutations within the genetic code are corruptions caused by sin, and those CAN be passed down...
Did that clarify?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 1:24:01 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Yeah, he said apes came from AFrica, true, but then he connected to man, that's where the cover up started.
OK. So, Darwin said man came from apes that lived in Africa. Remind me agin: What exactly is being coverd-up
Trying to cover up that G-D created man and that he first walked the earth as a black man.
Instead we got man came from apes, those very same first people are the lower race.
a bunch of junk!
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 1:42:37 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 288
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Yeah, he said apes came from AFrica, true, but then he connected to man, that's where the cover up started.
OK. So, Darwin said man came from apes that lived in Africa. Remind me agin: What exactly is being coverd-up
Trying to cover up that G-D created man and that he first walked the earth as a black man.
Instead we got man came from apes, those very same first people are the lower race.
a bunch of junk!
I mean no ill intent, but honestly, there's no description in the Bible of man first appearing on this earth as a black man. If you want to get down to it, when God created man, He created him in His own image, and since we have such a large variety of skin tones, then his particular melatonin levels were probably pretty neutral. But is it REALLY that big of a deal? To say that Adam was black, or white, or aqua marine blue, aren't we attempting to create Adam in our image, rather than God creating him in His? Rest easy, the Bible never mentions "races" as we mean them, rather the Bible speaks of family decent. Actually, the only real "races" that the Bible mentions are 2: saved, and unsaved.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 2:16:13 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
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From: Mpls, MN
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DNA says AFrica, Tanzania.
follow the Bible thru. They were black first, as a Christian I want to be able to tell truth always.
What if G-D did create the black man first, we know there are black men?
Two whites cannot have a coal black baby. so your subtle agruement of he is neutral in color does not work.
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 2:46:36 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 288
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
DNA says AFrica, Tanzania.
follow the Bible thru. They were black first, as a Christian I want to be able to tell truth always.
What if G-D did create the black man first, we know there are black men?
Two whites cannot have a coal black baby. so your subtle agruement of he is neutral in color does not work.
I don't care what color Adam's skin was; it's not even close to being a theological issue!
It's like debating if Barak Obama is a black man with a white mom or a white man with a black dad...
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE??? We're doing a tremendous disservice to the Gospel by creating stumbling blocks out of non-issues like this. It doesn't say anything about it in the Bible, but if it makes you feel more Holy to think of Adam's skin color as being aqua marine blue, then do it, but let's not get hung up on it, OK?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 4:46:34 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
If sin were genetic we could rid ourselves of our sinfulness by scientific means. We could pinpoint which genes produce sin in us and eliminate them, or modify them so that they did not have mortal effects. There would be no need for an atoning sacrifice. Getting rid of sin would be a matter of genetic engineering.
Are you sure you want to continue in this theological direction?
Good grief no... I didn't mean it in the sense that sin is a genetic coding (hence the quotations around the word)... Only that our sinful natures ARE passed down to us from generations before, all the way back toAdam. Not that sin is actually encoded in our genes, but LIKE genes, the sinful nature is passed down.
Good. I am glad we got that clarified. A sinful nature is passed to us, but not through biological reproduction. This is a very important point for it tells us that biology does not dictate theology and theology does not dictate biology. It also tells us, contrary to some beliefs, that sexuality is not inherently sinful. One does not need to be celibate to be perfectly holy.
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Likewise, disruptions and mutations within the genetic code are corruptions caused by sin, and those CAN be passed down...
Here we need a little clarification on the term "genetic code". What is the genetic code? As you may know the coding feature in DNA are the base nucleotides. There are four of them, usually referred to by the initial letter of the nucleotide: A, C, G and T. Any combination of three letters (including repeats like CCC or TGT or AAC) can code for the production of an amino acid---except for three that signal "stop". When a chain of amino acids is produced, the coding also signals how they are to be folded into the structure of a protein.
Now what would it mean for this code to be "corrupted"? In what way is it corrupt? There are 64 possible sequences of three base nucleotides and every one of them codes for a specific amino acid, except for the 3 that signal "stop". And this code is consistent in all living things. So it continues to work effectively in all organisms in all species.
How is it corrupt? As far as I can see, it is meaningless to speak of this code as corrupt.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 6:10:27 PM
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Method
Posts: 875
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, I don't know any Christians who say they don't know who created everything (in fact, if they did say that, I am not sure how they came to be Christians to begin with) but rather they say (as I do) that one can't know such things through science. That is a signifcantly different thing.
The strength of science is that it produces verifiable knowledge, knowledge that is independent of the person. Science is a useful tool for knowing things "for sure", or as close as we can. There is certainly still mysteries that science has not solved, and may never solve. Religion has filled this gap since the dawn of man. The problem arises when religion claims that there is a mystery where no mystery exists. The priest has no vestments, for a turn of phrase.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 7:17:31 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 187
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
The strength of science is that it produces verifiable knowledge, knowledge that is independent of the person. Science is a useful tool for knowing things "for sure", or as close as we can. There is certainly still mysteries that science has not solved, and may never solve. Religion has filled this gap since the dawn of man. The problem arises when religion claims that there is a mystery where no mystery exists. The priest has no vestments, for a turn of phrase.
This true of all truth. All truth is external and it is true whether it is known or not or believed or not.
As for gap filling, scientists are not immune to it. What you observe in religion, I observe in the countless speculations scientists propose all the time without any real basis or fact. Take most modern science programs on the solar system. Recently, I watched one program where one scientist after another speculated that given the similarities (which were far fewer than advertised) between earth and the moon Titan that there just must be life on it. Simply just the presence of water ice on the surface was enough for half-a-dozen scientists, with great conviction, to excitedly explain that they absolutely expect to find some vast liquid ocean filled with life. Only problem is that no ocean nor life has been found and at present, and given several environmental factors, we really don't have reason to expect life to be found on Titan. Never mind that the mean surface temp is less than -100C, these scientists went on and on about how there just had to be some ocean deep below the surface, close to the moon's warm core teeming with life.
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/16/2008 7:50:16 PM
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Method
Posts: 875
Joined: 9/19/2007
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