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To the Students amongst us (pick your translation):

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ORIGINAL: Kat_D

The truth is that false teachers have infiltrated the church in vast numbers these days as the Bible said it would be. The Church Forum posters, have therefore, responded to that by increasing its discussions on the subject to expose the lies and preserve the Truth, as it should be.

This is the guideline given for the Church Forum:

"Discuss issues and questions about denominations, religions, or alleged false teachers."

Nothing has been going on in the Church folder that falls outside that guideline so I see no problem with it.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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ORIGINAL: lw9

I don't see folks running around like Chicken Little and worrying that God is out of control. I see people engaged in discussions and comparisons of scripture in the interest of warning others against dangerous doctrines.

No, you guys go FAR beyond just warning people. You guys actually play judge and jury and condemn people. And you do it right and left. The bible is very clear about the type of character a false teacher has and most of the preachers/teachers you disdain do not show this type of character. Yet you do not use scripture to truly test these people's character and fruit, you just do overviews of some of their teachings. Wrong doctrine though is not the integral part of a false teacher - it's their wrong character that is the integral part.

1. They are liars whose consciences have been burned. (1 Tim 4) So you are actually going to say that Joel Osteen acts like a man whose has no conscience at all? Or that Joyce Meyers is a woman who does evil without any conscience?

2. They have a tendency to forbid lots of things that are meant for good - food, marriage, etc. (1 Tim 4) Now I tend to think of the David Koresh type cults with this because he did forbid marriage, except to him. But do you guys believe that Hinn or Joyner have a list of forbidden things that we can't do?

3. They deny Jesus Christ and they practice a life of debauchery. (2 Pet 1) Now I can say pretty certainly that none of the teachers you dislike deny Jesus Christ and they don't practice lives of debauchery. Again that would be in line with the Mormon Cult that has been in the news recently who marry multiple women and abuse young girls. Or in the line of a pastor I know of who had been exposed for having sex with young girls in the youth group. Definately bad.

4. They follow their old sinful nature and despise authority. (2 Pet1:10) I'm sorry but I just don't see Meyer's or Copeland or these guys you hate following their old sinful nature or despising authority.

5. They will be fierce or savage like wolves and will not spare the sheep.(Acts 20:29) The reason they don't spare the sheep is because they don't have love. There are a couple teachers who tend to be rough around the edges, even losing their temper and saying something they shouldn't to someone (which we are all guilty of), but for the most part, I don't see any of the teachers you dislike as being savage wolves without any love for people.

6. They will teach perversions of the truth with the sole intent of drawing people to themselves. (Acts 20:30) Now I know this is probably the only one that you guys definately believe ALL the teachers you hate are guilty of. But that's a tougher one to judge because you don't know if the intents of their heart is to get people to follow them. According to this verse, that would definately need to be the motive in their heart. As for teaching perversions, there are some errors I don't agree with, but there are things you believe which I think are gross errors, so does that make you a false teacher? And are you on these forums for the purpose of getting people to believe you and follow your teachings and warnings?

7. According to 2 Tim 3:9, people who have corrupt minds like the false teachers will not get very far for their foolishness will be very plain to see. The problem this verse brings up is that most of the people you dislike have gotten VERY far and have enjoyed a lifetime of ministering to the Lord and to his church. According to scripture corrupt deceivers will not 'get very far' and will be found out pretty quickly like Jannes and Jambres were. Yet we have 100's of thousands, if not millions of christians who have loved the teachers that you disdain and who pray for them diligently and support them financially. I believe that's because God is behind them and loves them - and God definately hears the prayers of all His children who are praying for these leaders.

There are many other verses that list the character of false teachers and prophets. You guys tend to ignore these verses or even worse, you read them and then don't hold that verse up to those teachers to truly test, "does that person really fit this characteristic?" I believe they absolutely don't. You test solely on if they agree with your understanding of scripture. That's not how we are to test.

And you extend your judgements to ALL those who listen to the people you don't like: "they're deluded, brain-washed, decieved, have 'itchy-ears', hyper-emotional, fanatics, crazy," and the list goes on and on; and you don't seem to mind at all in calling them names, yet they are your fellow brethren, followers of Christ and Jesus lovers. I think Paul is rolling over in his grave. An unbeliever coming on these forums would have a very hard time recognizing loving christians.

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ORIGINAL: wintery

Come over to the darkside, SD.

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ORIGINAL: wintery


"It is the drink of sleep, of death and shady things that shall creep over your mind . . . for what fills this cup is nightshade to your souls."

"For sake of life, for sake of truth and purest love . . . please do not drink of such a cup."--SD456, on her blog.

Come over to the darkside, SD.[:D]--Darth Wintery

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I think Paul is rolling over in his grave.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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ORIGINAL: wintery


"It is the drink of sleep, of death and shady things that shall creep over your mind . . . for what fills this cup is nightshade to your souls."

"For sake of life, for sake of truth and purest love . . . please do not drink of such a cup."--SD456, on her blog.

Come over to the darkside, SD.[:D]--Darth Wintery

But what a difference. I'm speaking about a book, not digressing into name calling and slander against a person as you folks do continually. If you cannot see the difference then I cannot help you there.

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ORIGINAL: SD456
Do you think it is possible for you guys (and I'm speaking to the same group of 5-7 of you who are the ones who consider yourselves 'defenders of the faith!' and are doing most of the bashing) to speak solely about someone's teaching and leave the character bashing and name calling out of it? Also leave out all the references and mocking comments you make about those who listen to that teacher?

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ORIGINAL: SD456
If you could speak in such a way there might actually be a few more who join in the conversation because then it would actually be a conversation, as I've noticed the last couple topics in the church forum (the new healing revival in Florida, etc) are getting fewer and fewer people interested in entering and the same 5-7 of you are in there throwing your mocking remarks back and forth amongst each other about WOF, TBN, etc etc.

It seems that you are losing your audience and only have yourselves to talk to and the few others who are of like mind and like to join in the mocking and bashing.

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ORIGINAL: SD456
Too bad, because there could actually be some gracious and interesting conversations to be had.

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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I think Paul is rolling over in his grave.

Sometimes I wonder if people who make such statements do more than read selected passages of Paul's writings.

Here's just a sample:

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...

...But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them.

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The difference is that you LIKE the teachers we don't. That's all.

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Could it be you are taking this too personally because of your support for these teachers?

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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The difference is that you LIKE the teachers we don't. That's all.

Hmmm....I don't think I see that free-bee in scripture - "one is allowed to denigrate and mock if one does not like the teacher."

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Could it be you are taking this too personally because of your support for these teachers?

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ORIGINAL: SD456
Could possibly be in some eensy, tiny, little way that I am correct?

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse

So, you truly believe that ...Copeland... are all 'evil' people...

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A pretty good reason to discuss what we _can_ tell crosses the line is because at some point false teaching, "deception", can bring about other, more easily-recognized sins, some which may be hidden now.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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A pretty good reason to discuss what we _can_ tell crosses the line is because at some point false teaching, "deception", can bring about other, more easily-recognized sins, some which may be hidden now.

So these teachers, many who have been ministering to the church and the Lord for 20-40 years, actually have (in your opinion) terrible hidden sins that we need to just 'wait out longer' for it all to be found out?

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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A pretty good reason to discuss what we _can_ tell crosses the line is because at some point false teaching, "deception", can bring about other, more easily-recognized sins, some which may be hidden now.

So these teachers, many who have been ministering to the church and the Lord for 20-40 years, actually have (in your opinion) terrible hidden sins that we need to just 'wait out longer' for it all to be found out?

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ORIGINAL: SD456

[:D] Me thinks it is impossible to speak about teachers' teachings and leave out there character unless you know them personally, face-to-face and have first hand knowledge of their private lives.

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ORIGINAL: wintery

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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A pretty good reason to discuss what we _can_ tell crosses the line is because at some point false teaching, "deception", can bring about other, more easily-recognized sins, some which may be hidden now.

So these teachers, many who have been ministering to the church and the Lord for 20-40 years, actually have (in your opinion) terrible hidden sins that we need to just 'wait out longer' for it all to be found out?

Yes. but if I posted what I've heard, we'd be in the "gossip" category and far be it from me to do that! If you'll recall a few names of sinners found out...Bakker, Swaggart, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Ted Haggard....

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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A pretty good reason to discuss what we _can_ tell crosses the line is because at some point false teaching, "deception", can bring about other, more easily-recognized sins, some which may be hidden now.

So these teachers, many who have been ministering to the church and the Lord for 20-40 years, actually have (in your opinion) terrible hidden sins that we need to just 'wait out longer' for it all to be found out?

I do not call feeding the sheep poisonous, false teachings ministering. They don't need to have hidden sins like Swaggert or Bakker to cause harm to gullible people that refuse to read and study the scriptures on their own.


One for instance, tell me, was Paul's "thorn in the flesh" healed/removed?

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ORIGINAL: SD456
Big Ding! You have made a denigrating statement about the people's character whom like to listen to said teacher. You're judgement of them being 'gullible' is completely subjective and since you don't know their hearts, intellect, maturity level etc, then you can't say that about them.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

Thank you! I'm so glad that you have chosen to not share gossip!

"sinners found out"....Hmmmm. I wonder how many of us have sins that have not yet been 'found out'? I'm curious, did Jesus say that if we fall to sin then we are no longer saved and that we are then put into the 'false christian' category?

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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ORIGINAL: SD456
Big Ding! You have made a denigrating statement about the people's character whom like to listen to said teacher. You're judgement of them being 'gullible' is completely subjective and since you don't know their hearts, intellect, maturity level etc, then you can't say that about them.

Nope, not denigrating. True. They are gullible if they accept said person's teaching when it clearly goes against the whole of scripture. I've seen people on this forum refuse to denounce someone that preaches another gospel. Such folk that Paul said should be accursed.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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ORIGINAL: SD456
Big Ding! You have made a denigrating statement about the people's character whom like to listen to said teacher. You're judgement of them being 'gullible' is completely subjective and since you don't know their hearts, intellect, maturity level etc, then you can't say that about them.

Nope, not denigrating. True. They are gullible if they accept said person's teaching when it clearly goes against the whole of scripture. I've seen people on this forum refuse to denounce someone that preaches another gospel. Such folk that Paul said should be accursed.

Ever hear of the Bereans?

BTW, can you tell me, was Paul's "thorn in the flesh" healed/removed?

[:D] It just can't be done. Not with the stubborn, pride-ful humans that we are. We insist that we know people's hearts and that WE must be right and THEY must be wrong because they come to a different conclusion about something.

Oh, well, I though I'd try. Never mind. The point is taken. It is an impossibility to do as you guys in 4 posts and 3 dings have so very well proven.